Mmeu 2017 supplement rules

[TRUCKPULL]

Terry

The club in Florida that is a NAMBA club that is running the Can Size rule set, the same as your club.
West Florida Model Boat Club
You can find the conversation on their Facebook page.

The person with the boats in question is a distributor for Lehner.

Larry

[photohoward1]

About the 62mm X 36mm rule
Do these motors fit the rule?? ( the bearing sticks out 1.5mm out the front of the can, but the can is 36mm X62mm)

http://www.lehner-shop.com/Inrunner/.../1930::37.html
Click on more images to see the*!**measurements.*!**

One of the guys in Florida is running one and blowing the rest of them away, and the rest of the guys in the club are quitting the stock classes because they refuse to spend $300.00 US on a stock class motor.

Maybe a $ limit is in order??
Double price of a TP is $160.00 USD

Larry

Do what most other racing organizations do. Unfair advantage just BAN IT! Lose one guy instead of a bunch. or Just some how limit them. less prop or add weight. Most forms of racing penalize somehow when someone has an advantage. I do still want to see it. The TP Motors are pretty good. Set-up and Balance is the key.

[HRC]

Good point Howard. There seems to always be one or two that make waves (no pun intended) It is our club that Larry made reference to. West Florida Model Boat Club. I have submitted a club rule to consider for LSO class of motor size limited to 36 X 62.2 mm and price cap of $100. This should keep the playing field on an even keel. It would be a shame to see the LSO class die in our club as there are a lot of LSO boat owners here.

[dethow]

I still feel we should have gone with the 37mm x 61mm limit which would have ruled out the Lehner with a built-in fan.

End of the day... I really hope we don't go down the road of putting a price limit in our rules.

As Terry knows, I am changing out my motors to Neu 1412s. These are supposed to be 36.5mm x 61mm per spec drawings, however per Steve Neu they have been putting the 1412s in a 1415 can which measures 68.6mm long. On special request basis with a quantity of 5 or more order, Steve is willing to get them into the proper can. I ordered some and he actually ended up fitting them into a 56mm long can. These cost $230 each and are available in several different winds which include: 3D/1650kv, 1.5Y/1850kv, and 2.5D/2050kv.

My goal is dependability and longevity. I’m not looking to push the limits of these motors. I want to be competitive with the TPs that are being pushed to their limits without having to worry about spending $80 to replace blown motors 2 or 3 times a season. That's over my 3 boats, not 2 or 3 motors in each boat.
And I do accept that I'm still a newbie and probably blow out more motors then those more experienced with setting up a boat properly. But from my standpoint as a newer guy... I'm sick of spending so much on motors while trying to get my boats competitive. It's frustrating an expensive. I propose that a higher priced motor will actually be the better method for new people to get involved and be competitive without spending hours upon hours at the pond and/or spending more on replacement motors.

With that said... I know their will be some that want to push and limits. I just hope they don't ruin it for those of use who want to spend the money for dependability.

[T.S.Davis]

You know what's odd to me? I've had more trouble with my open P setups this past year than I have with my old limited boats. 2 broken or battered 1527. Go figure. Very few failures for Ty and I in limited. I baked a TP 2070 in AZ but that was because I forgot that it was the 2070 in the boat. I was supposed to swap it out for the 1950 and forgot. Too much going on. Then I prop'd up like I had a 1950 and fr'shizzled it.

I'm really anxious to see all these motors running together in truth.
We have.......
TP's of various winds
Neu's of various winds
Lehners of various winds.
AQ 2030's
AQ1800's
PB 1500's

That 1500 is still a beast of a motor by the way. We raced some in AZ. The 1500's were every bit as fast as our TP motors and in some cases faster. Ray's Whip is crazy fast.

The Lehner is a killer motor but there is a reason some of us went to Neu back in 2008 or so for heat racing. There is no way around the torque factor on the small motors. When you get into the giant 30 series motors with lots of rotating mass it's a bit different. Again, we'll see.

I have to remember to put together a spreadsheet for our club races to see what's winning. I could keep track of each heat.

[macomb]

Lehner 1930

[longballlumber]

Lehner 1930

Can I see your ISO quality audit paperwork certifying your calipers as an acceptable measuring device? LOL. JK

[Shooter]

I'll be running my AQ2030's until they blow!

[TRUCKPULL]

The NAMBA club in Florida just changed there rule set for Spec classes on SUN.
Dia - 36.3mm
Length 61.2mm
For this year max $100.00

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

Begs some questions Larry...

How many races have they run with the new spec? I mean, its March. How many races can there have been? Is the Lehner winning every heat? Every spec class? Sounded like just LSO. I can't find their race results but I didn't look super hard either. So maybe 2 races. 2 flights maybe x 3 rounds x 2 races is maybe 12 heats. Lehner won them all? So much so that guys are quitting the class over one guy winning?

I read their FB thread a little. Reads like one guy was getting 58 on the GPS and they pulled the plug. 58 down the straight doesn't always equate to wins. Sounds like I'm being ultra critical. I don't mean to be like that. Just seems premature to me from the outside looking in. We'll run it all summer before we pull the plug. We have 5 classes running the size limit to glean information from. Should be 180+ heats without the Cup to gather information from.

I also saw on there where Stancomb was trying desperately to point out that his motor was legal for NAMBA. He likely will meet the production requirements for inclusion but that is just the requirements that allow a CD to deem it legal for a single event. Doesn't make it NAMBA legal. Means "the CD has the discretion to allow the following......." Blahblahblah. That's what the rule was for. Since Dave wrote it and I proposed it I can tell you that was the intent. In case I never mentioned it before. I think we blew it. Hind sight.

So technically for NAMBA, the new Promarine motor would need to be proposed, voted on, and passed to get added to the list. Once that happens it would be accepted as "legal" at every venue. Not just where a CD's allowed it. Sucks but that's the law.....so to speak.

With this new approach he won't have to do any of that horse bleep. Neither will anyone else that spits out a new offering. If it fits it's legal. That's the idea. You've all heard this before. haha

A max MSRP may/might/could well be part of our future on these but I'll reserve judgment on that until we've had more time with it. I really appreciate our gang (and other...gangs?) taking the chance on it both with their efforts and in some cases their wallets. Experimenting with custom wind Neu's, high end Lehners, and a bushel basket of TP winds is pricey experimenting. That part also sucks.

[dethow]

Besides what Terry went through there...
Were any Neu motors evaluated? Were any Lehner without the built-in fan evaluated?
Why block out other motors because one showed signs of dominance?
First thing they could have done was reduce size limit to 37mm x 61mm to get rid of the Lehner 1930 with built-in fan.
Then if the 36mm x 54mm Lehner 1930 was still showing dominance they could block it with a $250 USD price limit.

But I agree with Terry on needing more racing data. And maybe this person just found the sweet spot for that boat and it'd still dominate with another similar wind motor.

[TRUCKPULL]

On special request basis with a quantity of 5 or more order, Steve is willing to get them into the proper can. .

David
How does this make it a readily available motor??

If I wanted one motor, I need to buy 5 motors????

Larry

[dethow]

Larry,
I agree with you on a right now basis.

Steve needs to start putting the 1412 motors in their proper can which is shown within his own spec drawings at 36.5mm x 61.0mm. I think that if more people start requesting him to do that he will probably just start making all 1412s that way.

But I will remind you that there is nothing in the MMEU rule that says it has to be readily available. Nor does it even say it has to be a production motor. One could go ahead and have a complete custom motor with custom wind made as long as it’s in a can no larger thn 37mm x 62mm.

But as of right now I’d recommend going in on a group purchase or we need to convince OSE to get some stock of the 1412s in their proper cans.

[TRUCKPULL]

I do not think that you are going to get Steven (OSE) to stock something that may be illegal, if a $ limit is put in place.

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

Whose dollar limit Larry? There isn't one. You guys have already jumped the shark.

Just so there isn't any confusion on this size thing. We don't care if you buy a can from TP and fill it with your own winding. You could dig up an old Aveox 1412/1.5y, chop the sensor wires, saw the can in half, glue it to half of a Hacker can and fill it with saw dust n' boogers. We don't care. 37mmx62mm is legal.

Hmmm Wonder how long an old Aveox 36/30/1.5 is. That could actually work.

[T.S.Davis]

I do not think that you are going to get Steven (OSE) to stock something that may be illegal, if a $ limit is put in place.

Larry

Pretty sure Dave meant Steve Neu needs to put his 1412's back in 1412 cans.

[Darin Jordan]

Not my business, but I'll butt in for a moment anyhow...

If you start adding additional CRAP to the rules... list cost limits... availability limits... color of the cans, whatever, you are completely off your rockers and wasting everyone's time. It's pointless, useless, and won't do anything more than simply add clutter and complication to a VERY simple, and VERY effective ruleset...

Think of it this way... there is NOTHING limiting ANYTHING, motor-wise, in ANY OF THE OTHER CLASSES... Nothing... Not size, KV, price, winds, nothing... Number of motors, I suppose, for 2S and, in IMPBA's case, 4S. That's it... and there are people running inexpensive TP motors, and expensive Neu motors... ALL of them being competitive.

This "M-Spec" (P-LTD) size limit is a REAL, viable, tech-able limitation. It's NOT meant to make everyone "even"... it's meant to put a cap on the POWER THAT IS POSSIBLE for the class. It does that perfectly, effectively, and very simply. Furthermore, it's able to be tech'd, plainly, simply, and without any special tools. It provides "parity" by putting a cap on what is possible. For the next season or so, we'll work our way to finding out what that is.

Once that limit is figured out, which basically is now for some of us, it'll be clear, plain, simple, and readily available to all. The cream of the motor crop will rise. People will figure out what to run and how to run it, JUST like they know now, and the class will be able to continue on for YEARS to come, without the need to argue, adjust, or otherwise mess with, JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER CLASSES...

All by taking a simple measurement of the motor can.

All this concern, worry, fear, whatever, is all the same kind of red-herring BS that we got with brushless motors and Lipos... the introduction of which has IMPROVED FE R/C Boating and Boat Racing overall. As this rule-package moves forward, and IF it ever becomes official, perhaps even for BOTH organizations, it will improve P-LTD racing as well. I mean, think about it, WHAT will there be left to bitch about?? Heat shrink? Motor availability? Motor QUALITY? Motor consistency? Can color? WHAT??

Is it going to take adjustment for a season? Yup. Is it going to obsolete your present power systems? Probably not, but maybe over time, to a degree. Do you HAVE to go buy new motors to be competitive?? If you think that, you don't know boating, because I'm certain I can compete against ANYTHING out there with my present Pro Boat/Dynamite 1800/1500KV motors. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand Brushless power systems and props.

As for figuring it all out... Us FE Racers are a friendly lot. If you are confused about what to run, just ask. You'll get your answers. It's pretty much that simple.

OK, I've said it... Rant over... Fire away... :)

[T.S.Davis]

haha Darin, you left out the switch from Nicd to Nimh. Wasn't going to be fair. "Why, I'll have to replace the batteries for my whole fleet if we allow NiMh" Like Nicd's lasted more than a couple 100 amp heats before they were missmatched junk.

How about brushless motors in N1? That was fun too.

I thought LiPo would be the death of me. Not the tech itself. The hand wringing over it. Guys were really counting their pennies on that one. That's when I was accused of supporting 2P because I was in a suppliers pocket. Fun times. Now we have cells that can be raced hard for multiple seasons. The reality was wayyyyy cheaper. I was buying multiple packs per season of NiMh. ugh. Hind sight makes how long we actually waited seem foolish.

Darin hit on my problem with 1/8 scale too. There are no motor limits or motor lists for any other IMPBA FE class. At all. Period. None. Length - cell count. That's it. Those are the limits in the existing IMPBA classes. Scale is the most difficult to build, the most technically complicated class, and requires the most experience to even contemplate. That class is not for newbies or for the faint of heart. So...............let's limit the tech. Stupid. Let the boats determine how fast they should go. Just like every other class. We don't put a "should go about this fast" to look right on an other classes. Some of those other classes get to obscene speeds so it's not safety. There's no need to mimic nitro. They don't want to run with us if they can help it. Not because they don't like us. Just cuz it's apples to cinder blocks. We have too many advantages. It really isn't fair. ugh.........I'm ranting again. Moving on.........

I would still like to hear how much data went into Florida's decision to drop an MSRP into the mix. We've had almost no race time on these and already the waters are getting murky. Makes the test phase kind of skewed. I was hoping we could all be on the same page for more than two club races.

[Darin Jordan]

I would still like to hear how much data went into Florida's decision to drop an MSRP into the mix. We've had almost no race time on these and already the waters are getting murky.

SERIOUSLY?? OH GOOD GRIEF! I'd LOVE to hear someone argue in support of THAT, with any REAL data...

[Doug Smock]

Eight years??, and discussions still going strong on P Limited, spec, whatever, motor rules. Ugggg!
Enough already for me, I'm sick to death of these discussions. Stick a fork in it!!

It seems that guys won't be happy until they are running "P Speeds" so why not skip the BS and run P?

With the latest we are having conversations about doing exactly that for 2018. It seems that I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Terry my brother. Write your scale proposal and get it in to the office. The BOD meets in June, time is wasting.

[photohoward1]

I'm glad I made the descission not to race spec 3 years ago. I am going back to the new spec rules this year. I like the size limits. It's what I have always said. I still bet that Lehner is not better than a a TP OR NEU. I watched countless spec boats with UL1 motors or the 1500 or the 1800 or the 2030 just kick but and race down the straights in the high 50s. The racer that spends $300 on a spec motor is a fool. Just race full P. All my opinions and can't wait for Atlanta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TRUCKPULL]

Pretty sure Dave meant Steve Neu needs to put his 1412's back in 1412 cans.

Bottom of post #43

By the way I was only posting what is happening in the Florida club.
They race every two weeks all year round, so I don't know how long they have been running the size limit.

I know at this time I will still be running the 1500,s and the 2030's this year.

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, that's not true. Were not trying to run P speeds. We are however trying to fix the mess we made with a list of approved motors that catered to two manufacturers. Yeah, it worked...... Sort of. Limited power. More like limited shelf life. This new approach could/maybe/might hold up once we get it figured out.

I've already been asked to write that scale proposal. I said I would but I'm SO on the fence about whether or not I care enough to bother. There just is no demand for scale. Guys don't run it in NAMBA with no motor list. Guys don't run it in IMPBA with a motor list. So who cares? There might be a 8 heats per year currently. They're all in MI. We need an iron clad rule set for 8 heats?

[Doug Smock]

Eight years??, and discussions still going strong on P Limited, spec, whatever, motor rules. Ugggg!
Enough already for me, I'm sick to death of these discussions. Stick a fork in it!!

It seems that guys won't be happy until they are running "P Speeds" so why not skip the BS and run P?

With the latest we are having conversations about doing exactly that for 2018. It seems that I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Terry my brother. Write your scale proposal and get it in to the office. The BOD meets in June, time is wasting.

Just got a call from a friend that saw this post. He called to "pull me back off the ledge". LOL I'm fine fellas, really!

Like Howard, I'm looking forward to Atlanta!

[HRC]

Comparatively speaking our club here is a small fish in the big pond. About 50% or more of our members are entry level in the hobby with a limited amount of disposable income. Telling someone after they have shelled out $550 for a RTR (LSO) and another $200 - $400 for batteries, charger, NAMBA and club membership dues to here the boat is not NAMBA legal because of the motor don’t set well.

Our decision was based on a budgetary reason only in an attempt to grow the hobby and our club. The guys just want to come out a couple times a month for some friendly competition and fun. As time goes by they will develop the skills and knowledge to compete on a national level.
I do plan on keeping a log for our races as to what boat and the motor used in the boat.

Sorry if I have stirred the pot again on the ongoing motor debate. I am done now.
Dave

[Shooter]

My opinion: Keep it simple. Spec ONE motor. Something that is reasonable and robust. It instantly evens the play field which is the overall objective. Done deal.

The argument of manufacture favoritism is moot. Even nation wide, we are still a spit in the bucket. There are way more fun runners than us, by far. We won't even show up on their sales radar!

[dethow]

I do not think that you are going to get Steven (OSE) to stock something that may be illegal, if a $ limit is put in place.

Larry

Pretty sure Dave meant Steve Neu needs to put his 1412's back in 1412 cans.

You are both right. I do think Steve Neu needs to put the 1412 in the can size that is shown in his spec drawing.
And I think Steve Vaccaro (OSE) needs to place an order of 1412s in the proper can size so that they can be available to people.

But Larry, I understand what you are say... that Steve Vaccaro (OSE) probably won't place that order IF a price limit being threatened to be placed on the motors.

Personally, I think this price limit talk is BS. If we want to truly limit the class to make it so a newbie can compete at a small cost then you need to limit prop price and modification and limit hulls to whats currently available off the shelf with no modifications. No more kits and no more bare-hulls that newbies don’t know how to build.
Darin is spot on... I could put a Neu or Lahner motor in any of my boats and he’d probably clean me off the water with one of his Proboat motors. Newbies can’t complete with some of the knowledge that’s out there. And the Neu or Lehner motor in the newbie’s boat isn’t going to change that. But for me… what I’m hoping is that Neu motors may buy me some forgiveness on learning to setup my boats and props. I’m hoping that the quality/durability may allow me to see that a certain prop change slowed me down without burning up my motor in the process. And once I’ve learned more and can compete… I may step back to a cheaper TP.

[T.S.Davis]

Sorry Dave. I was trying so hard to not be a weeny too. FAIL!.............again. Seems to be a pattern.

You guys are right on. Do what puts butts on the drivers stand. If a dollar cap does that then it does. I'm sure there is a degree of perception too. This is more true for less experienced guys. All they see is that they got passed by somebody with a $300 motor. I could probably put rubber bands in my sons Stealth and it would still be competitive. It's about the time invested in it. It's really respectable but if I put a high zoot motor in there nobody will believe it's fast without the high zoot motor.

I think.............nobody should be required go out and buy a new motor for their brand new 4s boat. These boats are expensive. Especially early on when you don't already have a bunch of gear. The way the NAMBA rules are now, new guy may have to gut his new boat to be legal. Being a newer guy he might not even have soldering skills. No offense to new guys. We have experienced guys I wouldn't let solder for me either.

As it stands, if a new guy shows with a Promarine, a Blackjack, or even an RTR Pursuit at a NAMBA event he has to run full P as he isn't legal for limited. That shouldn't be the case. Those companies also shouldn't have to sacrifice a chicken for their offering to be legal either.

As much as Stancomb and I don't see eye to eye he really has done it the right way. He's tracked down a motor that was in the ball park, is the right size, and then produced the boats with the motor. Credit where credit is due. Not many manufacturers these days give a single crap what racers want. He's done everything he should be doing. Yet, his motor still isn't legal by the book. Someone has to propose it and it still has to get voted in. That's crap IMO.

[T.S.Davis]

BTW There's a bunch of horse crap in the IMPBA rule book I don't agree with too. It's not exclusive to NAMBA is what I'm saying.

We had good intentions but we just got some things wrong in NAMBA. Same is true for IMPBA. Guys had the best intentions and just missed the mark a tic. Fixable? Probably. I hope someone with some ambition will get right on that.

||||This is where Smock is supposed to read between the lines.||||

It's all you buddy!........no?

[Doug Smock]

||||This is where Smock is supposed to read between the lines.||||

I need to fix it? Why me? I'm not doing enough for the organization already? Besides, I'm an idiot, I don't even know what "it" is !!