Scale

[Speed810]

Doby....Let me ask one thing; have you ever built one of these 1/8 scales. Because it sounds like maybe you have not and are missing the point. Unless you have actually built one of these and can understand and appreciate the time, effort and money that goes into them, then you will not understand the way the drivers of these boats are thinking about driving one of these in race conditions. Which as indicated by most is that it is not a deck to deck all out clash which can take place with a lot of sport racing. You will drive these much more cautious. I think the fear is that guys with the RTR turn key boats really are not thinking about that as much because they don't have the time, effort + $ into them like the actual builder does. Thus the way they are driven does not maybe have that same caution and respect for the other boat.

Believe me I saw this this past summer at the MI Cup race. I actually felt pretty relieved that I did not have a heat with a few of these drivers running RTR 1/8 scales because they were being driven on the edge to at times out of control. I don't think there was one thought given to the fact that they were racing with a few of these boats that took 6 to 7 months to build and an attention to detail that you could not even imagine.

So I respectively disagree with you........It has everything to do with this discussion when we started calling it the Gentlemen's class. Believe me I am very aware of both sets of rules. Again it is a question of being able to apply these rules across the board and not having to change event rules through a flier. If I want to enter an IMPBA event in ATL the rules should be the same as they are in any other IMPBA event. If there is a call for a more open class of 1/8 scale inclusive of the RTR then make a new class.

I still would like to see more productive discussion on the motor selection available in this class that gives us some more flexibility on our designs. Have been already been looking at building another 1/8 scale that will be a lot lighter in case we can not come to consensuses on this. Still think its a great class to get into.....:)

IMPBA has motor specs...NAMBA doesn't.

Building is all fine and dandy...but that's not what makes a 1/8 scale hydro as per IMPBA rules (as stated above).


NAMBA has a master hull roster that controls what boats can be built (if I read their rule book correctly)...IMPBA does not (from what I have read). They have one for gas, but nothing in the rules in the FE section to tie it to FE 1/8ths.

So as Terry started this thread, and represents a IMPBA club...I'll assume that he's looking to get input on IMPBA 1/8ths.

So people can go on about the costs and time they have incurred in building these boats...but it doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.


And Jake, Pete got it from Ressor...I have a pic from our London days of Steve holding that boat he built


All of this also supports just how stupid it is that there are 2 boating orgs that are similar...but not the same...just different enough to drive people nuts and in some case throw up their hands in frustration.

[Doby]

I have a 1/8th Executone from Newton plans (I believe) that I bought several years ago from a builder/racer that is very familiar to the Michigan guys. Its a work of art and its built to run!..Pags and I have gone up against each other several times and when they are on the water, its balls to the wall. No other difference in our racing outlooks other than handshakes before and after.

Ever watch Ken Joye run his Atlas...again, great driving with pedal to the metal as well.

Everyone wants to win. If you choose to put your baby out there with others, things can happen unfortunately.

So you can respectfully disagree, but eventually all these boats will just be shelf queens if things keep going the way they do.

[Speed810]

My question then would be do they meet the IMPBA motor class spec's?

If not, then why are we not pushing to change the IMPBA rules to get more of these on the water. There is no doubt that it will die a slow death if we do not re-evaluate the rules that are 10 to 12 years old and some that are not even being followed or some that do not even have a district scale chairman that we can do the proper registration.

I'm just trying to look at this from both directions and the pros and cons. And I believe I do understand each side. Again trying to keep an open mind on this issue so it can fit all modelers. I know we can not please everyone, but it should meet some MIDDLE GROUND someplace.

Almost thinking I'll motor up on this Elam and let it rip in what ever event I can enter it in....then build another around the 1527 motor that I know will fit any sanctioned IMPBA event. Sounds crazy that we should have to do that, but that is what we are being pushed to do if we want to have a competitive boat for various events. I know if Terry and the board at MMEU come up with a more open motor 1/8 scale event for the Cup race, I'm history with the way it is now.

Just ordered my TP 5660....not waiting....LOL

I have a 1/8th Executone from Newton plans (I believe) that I bought several years ago from a builder/racer that is very familiar to the Michigan guys. Its a work of art and its built to run!..Pags and I have gone up against each other several times and when they are on the water, its balls to the wall. No other difference in our racing outlooks other than handshakes before and after.

Ever watch Ken Joye run his Atlas...again, great driving with pedal to the metal as well.

Everyone wants to win. If you choose to put your baby out there with others, things can happen unfortunately.

So you can respectfully disagree, but eventually all these boats will just be shelf queens if things keep going the way they do.

[Doby]

Mine had the big Plett in it that was allowed for IMPBA (it seized up 2 years ago), so I now want to get it back on the water. There are so many other viable options for motors now that are far less $$. Thats why I'm interested in this topic now. The motor limitations in IMPBA 1/8ths are similar to the P spec motor fiasco in NAMBA (although on a much lesser scale in class popularity).

Also, on the topic of overall costs of these boats, even if someone converts a ProBoat hydro to FE, by the time you are done, there is also a pretty significant financial investment on their behalf as well.

Both NAMBA and IMPBA need to get their crap together when it comes to a common set of rules for some classes. There should be no reason to have to worry about differing setups if a racer chooses to go to either orgs events to compete.

[Doug Smock]

NAMBA & IMPBA aren't a couple of guys in black cloaks. They are it's membership i.e. you! If you want change put your key strokes to better use.

If there isn't a Scale Dir. in your district you need to contact your DD and volunteer.
D13 didn't have one until I appointed one.

[Speed810]

I agree Doby!! It sure would make things easier to understand. At times I wonder if folks are actually intimidated by the class because of rules or lack of understanding etc.... Don't disagree on the all out cost on a conversion, but the amount of work and workmanship on an all built up 1/8 hydro is quite a bit more involved.

Hopefully we can come up with something that will meet our needs....:)

Mine had the big Plett in it that was allowed for IMPBA (it seized up 2 years ago), so I now want to get it back on the water. There are so many other viable options for motors now that are far less $$. Thats why I'm interested in this topic now. The motor limitations in IMPBA 1/8ths are similar to the P spec motor fiasco in NAMBA (although on a much lesser scale in class popularity).

Also, on the topic of overall costs of these boats, even if someone converts a ProBoat hydro to FE, by the time you are done, there is also a pretty significant financial investment on their behalf as well.

Both NAMBA and IMPBA need to get their crap together when it comes to a common set of rules for some classes. There should be no reason to have to worry about differing setups if a racer chooses to go to either orgs events to compete.

[Fluid]

There is a reason there are two different racing organizations, just like the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois party - two different philosophies on how things should be run. To demand that both organizations somehow "get their **** together" and agree on the same rules is totally unrealistic. Why should they? For the good of the people?

Like Doug says, if you want change you have to initiate it. Just like not voting for President then complaining about who won - you have little right to complain.

.

[Speed810]

Hey Doug.....That's funny "guys in black cloaks"....LOL Like XMen!!!....
Though I understand its our membership that makes these decisions....I think what this thread is trying to establish is to get an idea if some of these ideas or combination there of, would be something that would work for them and help grow the class.

This is only my 3rd year in this sport, but I would have to think that Terry and the district would only feel comfortable with submitting something if we felt that we were close to having a consensus where we would be benefitting the majority. Personally I would be looking at some of our veteran 1/8 scaler's (As you, Don...etc) that have a lot of experience in this. It would be nice to see if there was a middle line that some guys could live with and keeping the class fun and competitive. There are a few folks out there that seem to have concrete shoes on and don't want to budge. Lets see if we have a possible direction we can agree on then submit proposals.

What do ya think Doug? ....Am I looking at the process wrong? Let me know...Thanks.

Also Note::......TERRY....If we need a assignment for the scale district rep I would be interested in doing that.

NAMBA & IMPBA aren't a couple of guys in black cloaks. They are it's membership i.e. you! If you want change put your key strokes to better use.

If there isn't a Scale Dir. in your district you need to contact your DD and volunteer.
D13 didn't have one until I appointed one.

[Speed810]

There is a reason there are two different racing organizations, just like the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois party - two different philosophies on how things should be run. To demand that both organizations somehow "get their **** together" and agree on the same rules is totally unrealistic. Why should they? For the good of the people?

Like Doug says, if you want change you have to initiate it. Just like not voting for President then complaining about who won - you have little right to complain.

.

I agree Jay... Think that's a fight for another day....LOL

So what is your thought on this and IMPBA motor rules?

[Fluid]

I am torn in two directions. One is that because these are never "cheap" builds, why limit the power by a cost-limit rule? If a guy wants to run a Lehner 2280 or 3060 why not let him? Afterall, this is NOT a beginners class.

OTOH, if we want to bring scale gas racers into the fold perhaps we should soften the blow money-wise. Limiting speed and cost makes the transition easier for them, and it also keeps the boats 'slower' to reduce the chances of catastrophic damage to these expensive boats. I supported using the 40mm ~850 Kv motors in my District 7 because a bunch of gas racers wanted to run FE and this helped. But regardless of what we do, we will never have a lot of 1/8th scale boats.


.

[Doby]

There is a reason there are two different racing organizations, just like the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois party - two different philosophies on how things should be run. To demand that both organizations somehow "get their **** together" and agree on the same rules is totally unrealistic. Why should they? For the good of the people?



.

Why shouldn't they get their crap together...be better for all. Two different philosophies on classes that are so similar, but just different enough to add confusion and make some boats illegal to run in different orgs is STUPID.

[Speed810]

I am torn in two directions. One is that because these are never "cheap" builds, why limit the power by a cost-limit rule? If a guy wants to run a Lehner 2280 or 3060 why not let him? Afterall, this is NOT a beginners class.

OTOH, if we want to bring scale gas racers into the fold perhaps we should soften the blow money-wise. Limiting speed and cost makes the transition easier for them, and it also keeps the boats 'slower' to reduce the chances of catastrophic damage to these expensive boats. I supported using the 40mm ~850 Kv motors in my District 7 because a bunch of gas racers wanted to run FE and this helped. But regardless of what we do, we will never have a lot of 1/8th scale boats.


.

I never say Never Jay!! You just never know. But the biggest problem is it is difficult to find modelers that actually will take the time it takes to build these scale boats. Its the same thing in scale aircraft building. Not much out there and its a select group of modelers that have a love for detail and watching them fly like the real thing. Pretty exciting. The only difference is we don't usually race them...

I understand the use of the 40mm motor for the Gas guys wanting to run FE. But if motor specs were expanded a bit more it certainly would not hurt the gas guys.....Do ya think??

[Terry Keeley]

Well...if we want to follow the rules...how many of us with 1/8ths have done this???

2. Registration Procedures
a. All boats must be registered with the District 1/8 scale Chairman.
b. The District Chairman will require the following information in writing:
I. Name, address and phone number.
II. IMPBA number.
III. Unlimited name, year raced, and number.
IV. Length and beam of prototype boat and model.
V. Prototype designer and boat colors.
VI. Must submit a photo of prototype boat.
VII. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.
c. Boat must compete at a racing event within one year from registration.

Felt really bad about it but we had to disallow a record at Flint a few years back because the boat wasn't registered per the rules...

[Doug Smock]

Felt really bad about it but we had to disallow a record at Flint a few years back because the boat wasn't registered per the rules...

Hi Terry,
The motor didn't fit the rules either IIRC.

[T.S.Davis]

I believe that was Ken's squire that was disallowed.

Honestly, I don't believe anything we do is going to make the class "take off". It's high dollar, high skill, and time prohibitive. We cooked up the scale class in 2004 I think with no rules. It was loose as a goose. "OH! Let's do 1/8 scale on 10s! Cool! Bring it". We got a handful. 2006 we put it on paper. Linked it to the roster. Still 10s but no other limits. We wanted guys to show up. We saw boats for the cup but never more than 2 flights. IMPBA added scale maybe 2008 or so. There were some actual heats at the Northern Nat's but that was about it. There were some venue that allowed the FE scales to run with nitro. Alan destroyed everyone even with the limit. In fairness, he is one of the top 5 drivers I've ever seen. Guys he beat only saw that he ran FE. The effort to get them on the water with nitro was then a bust.

Point is, nothing we've tried has made the class flourish.

My thoughts are that we might as well let the class evolve. Nothing else has worked. "What if we get it wrong?". That's like stabing a racoon wrong after you ran him over with your car. He's already dead.

MMEU is in its IMPBA infancy. Most that know me/us/MMEU know that we're not afraid to get involved at the organizational level if it makes sense. The district director's home pond is also our home pond. I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to talk with him. He's also a scale super freak.

[Terry Keeley]

I believe that was Ken's squire that was disallowed.

You should get him to dot the I's and cross the T's and come on back for the oval, it's only 25.918 sec.

Don's SAW record would be a little more challenging tho at 100.089 mph!

[Doug Smock]

You should get him to dot the I's and cross the T's and come on back for the oval, it's only 25.918 sec.

Don's SAW record would be a little more challenging tho at 100.089 mph!

I was at the console when Don set that record. It was pretty cool seeing a Scale running that fast.

[Doug Smock]

Here you go Terry D. We'll just adopt this. (found on a IW FE Scale thread)

This is what is allowed per the R/C Unlimited rulebook;

Power and Drive Train:

Motor: -NEU 1527 1.5Y

Experimental options for 2013 -Scorpion 4035-800 -Turnigy SK3 Fandrive- 3994-850kv

Batteries: -8S1P configured Lithium Polymer (LiPo) battery(s).

The total capacity of batteries in the allowed chemistries and configurations shall not exceed a total capacity rating of 6,000 mAH.

Only LiPo batteries with a manufacturer’s minimum discharge rate of 30C constant but no higher than a 65C constant shall be allowed. There is a maximum $200.00 msrp per set limit.

Speed Controller: -Any speed controller may be used as long as it is a minimum of 150Amps.

-For safety, anti-spark resistors are advised on all speed controllers.

Propeller: -Any propeller may be used up to a maximum of 57MM diameter.

[TRUCKPULL]

There is a maximum $200.00 msrp per set limit.

Good 4S packs go for about $110 now.

What year was that price set.
Will it be OK if you by them on Sale??????????

Larry

[Doug Smock]

The site hasn't been update FE wise since 13 I guess.
http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/fe

[Doby]

More mystery source rules always help to clear things up

[Doby]

Interesting...if you go to the home page...

http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/

They have a nice vid of a race where on the first lap, there is a collision...and several laps in there is another..etc

I suppose the "gentleman's" class rules don't seem to apply (no matter how expensive the boats are)...everyone wants to win and will race as such.

[Doug Smock]

Maybe they're on to something! Power a Scale for under 5 bills!!

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/graphene...5c-w-xt90.html X2 $171.38 ea.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...120mm-edf.html $108.37
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...rless-esc.html $153.13

[TRUCKPULL]

Doug

I was thinking more along this line.
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...rod=rev-ys5000

I do not know what the msrp is though.

I think these cells are way better, I have beat on mine a little and show no drop in power or run time.

Larry

[Doby]

Larry...those cells are 70C () and therefore not allowed as per the new set of internet rules

[TRUCKPULL]

Larry...those cells are 70C () and therefore not allowed as per the new set of internet rules

John
Those rules are 3 years old.(need updating)
They are rules for one club only.
NOT IMPBA or NAMBA

Larry

[Doby]

I know that....but as Dougee seemed to want to murky up the waters even more, may as well have some fun with it

[Doby]

This discussion should be limited to IMPBA as it was started by the Michigan guys (who dumped NAMBA)

[Doug Smock]

I know that....but as Dougee seemed to want to murky up the waters even more, may as well have some fun with it

You don't like that rule set? Yeah I know!
Just wanted to point out the fact that it could be worse.

[Doby]

You don't like that rule set? Yeah I know!
Just wanted to point out the fact that it could be worse.

Figured thats what you were doing...lets Google more rules..I'm sure there are more out there somewhere!