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Thread: Scale

  1. #61
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    Terry

    Why not just run a class called;
    "S & T" Sport Hydro
    No motor rules in that one.
    Then everyone can play.

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray schrauwen View Post
    Needs a lot of TLC, lol...
    Ray
    That hull is the same as my Miss Madison was.

    Too short for 1/10 scale and way TOO short for 1/8 scale

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

  3. #63
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    Larry, that would make a 10s Backlash in the same class. That's what we did at the CanAm. Same boats we ran at the Cup where Schlarb jumped over the top of my boat.
    Noisy person

  4. #64
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    Then call it 1/8 scale (ish) Open?

    Any motor..any voltage,,,any 1/8th (ish) scale (ish) hull.

    Remember, you said the intent is to get boats on the water.

    At a club level event..who really cares?

  5. #65
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    We've already let guys run that we shouldn't have. Boats that weren't even close. The Proboat Elam for instance. Just wanted to get boats on the water. If we get too loosey goosey it's just sport hydro. Someone eventually will show up with something not even scale..ish. Then what?

    Call it "T unrigger hydro" and run what ya brung?

    Maybe this why I'm on the fence about helping keep it viable by supporting the class.

    They need to be "scale" to be a "scale" class but my desire to be inclusive conflicts with the very concept of scale. Too loose with the rules and they're sport hydro. Too tight and it doesn't run because someones dims are off? Too strict on motor rules and it doesn't run? Too little motor rules and the boats become kites? No rules and it's not a class?

    ...............owe, my head hurts.
    Noisy person

  6. #66
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    Scale needs to remain SCALE, otherwise it's just another sport hydro class. Anyone who knows me knows my love for the 1/8th scale boats. I've been running nitro 1/8th for as long as I've been in this and when the FE bug bit me it was in short order that an FE 1/8th scale was in the fleet. Built a really nice Elam from an ML kit that was fast and handled extremely well. At the time we were allowing FE and nitro together. After winning with it some of the nitro guys starting pissing and moaning about the FEs so they got split. Hit my current no more wings phase sold the Elam and built a new boat. Spent a LOT of time designed it's layout, setting it up and making it right. After a couple test sessions and one race I had it where I wanted it. Last race of the season I was running very fast and basically owned the class that day. Fast forward to the next (last) season nobody is entering FE scale and the class isn't making. Finally got one of them to admit they didn't want to race me as mine was much faster. So after it sat on the shelf all season I sold it since it wasn't right for such a nice boat to collect dust plus the extra cash would be helpful. Now one of the same people who wouldn't run against me is posting up how he'd love to run his FE scale but there's not enough in the district. Really??? WTF??? This isn't spec racing, I bust butt to make really nice and really fast FE 1/8th scale and the others get all butt hurt and won't run. I'd love to build another FE scale but why should I after that crap.......
    Futaba Team Driver
    - IMPBA Hydro Technical Director -

  7. #67
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    I agree with you Don. You were able to make your boat a champion and follow the IMPBA rules.

  8. #68
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    Well...if we want to follow the rules...how many of us with 1/8ths have done this???

    2. Registration Procedures
    a. All boats must be registered with the District 1/8 scale Chairman.
    b. The District Chairman will require the following information in writing:
    I. Name, address and phone number.
    II. IMPBA number.
    III. Unlimited name, year raced, and number.
    IV. Length and beam of prototype boat and model.
    V. Prototype designer and boat colors.
    VI. Must submit a photo of prototype boat.
    VII. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
    registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
    Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
    high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.
    c. Boat must compete at a racing event within one year from registration.

  9. #69
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    Is there a list of "District 1/8th Scale Chairmen" anywhere?

    At the next race where 1/8ths show up...better have your receipts ready for inspection! Otherwise...no running for you...come back one year!!!! (thanks to Seinfeild)

  10. #70
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    The list is on the IMPBA website. I am sending in my information.

  11. #71
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    Found a "National Scale Unlimited" guy listed under the "National Directors"...but no "District 1/8 scale Chairman"

    In D2 found a "D2 Scale/Sport 40 Director" guy listed...but again no "District 1/8 scale Chairman".

    Kinda hard to register with someone that doesn't exist.

    Unless those I found are to be considered the "District 1/8 scale Chairman"....but that's not what the rule says.

  12. #72
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    Never did any of that John. We didn't need to for NAMBA.

    The question is do we require it to run? Supposed to. Is the class important enough to guys to get them to register? I s PAGS going to register all his scale boats for the one time he comes to MI each year to race 5 heats? How about temporary membership guys? Guys that are basically what we knew as SEI racers in NAMBA. Their boats wouldn't be registered and they aren't allowed to race?

    Totally your point I assume John. Why get indignant about the motor choices if we're going to ignore 75% of the unlimited rules?

    This rule is a chuckle too
    $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
    registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
    Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
    high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.


    District high points? We've already established that there are no FE district scale heats anywhere.

    These rules are dumb. Sorry guys. They're written like there are 30 of these in every district. There aren't 30 of them in the entire United States.
    Noisy person

  13. #73
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    Don..I noticed you are listed as the..

    "D12 Scale Director
    Don Ferrette"

    Is that for scale boats as listed in section Q of the rule book?

  14. #74
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    Terry..glad to see you are getting what I'm saying....

    People like to quote rules, but who actually reads them?

  15. #75
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    I get that you didn't need that for NAMBA...you don't really need the IMPBA rules either for the cup as the race flyer can surely over-rule (!!!!) the "rules".

  16. #76
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    The almighty race flyer can fix all the worlds problems...unless you are holding a NATS I suppose.

    Then enforce all the "rules" and be prepared for crickets chirping for certain classes.

  17. #77
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    Besides...the boats only have to look scale...

    4. Motor, Boat and Battery Specifications
    a. All boats to be modeled after Unlimited hydroplanes from past or present.
    b. All boats to be built to a scale of 1- 1/2" to 1'0" (1/8 scale) plus or minus 10% of the beam and
    5% of the length
    c. Boats will look as scale as possible and meet the following requirements for racing and scale
    judging:
    I. Cockpit with driver.
    II. Complete all major lettering and paint schemes.
    III. Effort must be made to conceal the motor with fake engine or cowling as per prototype
    boats.

    If a ProBoat miss Bud/Llumar/Elam etc meets the measurements of 4B (I have no idea if they do) then they should be allowed as they meet everything else as long as you put a clear windshield on it with a driver in the cockpit..

  18. #78
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    My Mark n Pack is a registered 1/8 scale. Olly was the 1/8 scale director for D1 when I registered don't know who it is now.
    Mark n Pack is sporting a Plettenburg HP 370 BM/50, sch. 40/160, x450. 10s/1p. and it is mighty quick !!

    Cheers, Jay.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaike5 View Post
    My Mark n Pack is a registered 1/8 scale. Olly was the 1/8 scale director for D1 when I registered don't know who it is now.
    Mark n Pack is sporting a Plettenburg HP 370 BM/50, sch. 40/160, x450. 10s/1p. and it is mighty quick !!

    Cheers, Jay.
    Another Ressor boat! Did you pay your yearly 3 dollar fee..if not its NFG...gotta follow the rules.

  20. #80
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    Question, I looked for 1/10 scale hydro rules in IMPBA...nothing (maybe i need to look harder)......how will those be handled?

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    Question, I looked for 1/10 scale hydro rules in IMPBA...nothing (maybe i need to look harder)......how will those be handled?
    1/10th hydro doesn't exist in the IMPBA. You want to run it, run it. Keep em at or under the max. voltage, length, & weight.

    Again, post the rules on the sanction & race flier. (Yes, it fixes a lot of things, keeps the door open.) You can run it as a specialty class at a IMPBA FE Nats. Same as above.
    TOY BOAT RACER
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
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  22. #82
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    MMEU did put some 10th scale rules on paper that we can use but like Doug said it's not a national class. That's okay by me too BTW. As the tech changes our club can change with it................if we want. The motor list for 1/8 scale is based on 10+ year old technology. We were racing 2280 motors in 2004 on Nimh. To run anything bigger than the motors on the list back then you needed 10s2p. Today I can finish a heat with a 2217 on 10s1p. The battery tech is much better. 10 years better. People still had VCR's in there houses.

    Neither NAMBA's nor IMPBA's rendition of FE scale has brought all the kids to the yard. Both versions didn't get it done. Why? Who knows. I suspect that it comes down to what Don mentioned. It takes some serious dedication and learning to do it well. The plug and play speeds are so high right now that guys want a quick fix. "Why would I spend $2000+, months of building, engineering, painting, researching something that goes 62mph when I can buy a Zelos with a couple nice props to go just as fast right out of the box?" A handful of mods and you can get close to a 100 and you're still nowhere nearthe investment of a scale boat.

    Really sell'n it here ain't I? haha

    Maybe the answer is........find what we think will work on a given Sunday and run that. Do what we want. Put it on the fliers for those that need that but don't worry so much about the rule book. Clinging to the IMPBA rules isn't going to bring the boats out and having a loosey goosey set like we did in NAMBA didn't do it either. Hand wringing over registration of the (maybe) 5 boats that will show up in Michigan for the only 5 FE scale heats in North America? Really? Wait........do they have the IMPBA approved motors from the list that was dreamed up back in 2007 when the rule was written? Sorry, can't run! Stupid to even type it.
    Noisy person

  23. #83
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    When I signed up it was a $5.00 life time fee , guess late comers have to pay yearly . I think it might be one of Steve's boats, but I got it from Pete.

    Cheers, Jay.

  24. #84
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    What's not exciting about doing the roundy round at 60 plus mph with an 1/8th scale, can get pretty hairy on lap 4/5 with 4 scale boats running. lots of glass versions to drop running gear in that's not as hard on the pocket book, or building skills.

    Cheers, Jay.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I suspect that it comes down to what Don mentioned. It takes some serious dedication and learning to do it well. The plug and play speeds are so high right now that guys want a quick fix. "Why would I spend $2000+, months of building, engineering, painting, researching something that goes 62mph when I can buy a Zelos with a couple nice props to go just as fast right out of the box?" A handful of mods and you can get close to a 100 and you're still nowhere near the investment of a scale boat.
    DING! DING! DING! Give Terry a cigar once again. The "modelers" in this hobby are dying out as we are in the age of the "instant gratification I want it now" mentality. If someone wants to truly build an 1/8th scale they will and cost has nothing to do with it. As far as "approved" motors go anyone who is saying they won't build a scale because they don't want to spend the coin on a NEU or even a Lehner is handing out a line of crap. To build up a turn key FE scale and do it correctly is a couple grand minimum and a lot of time building and then testing at the pond to get it right. People have asked me in the past why I won't build 1/8th scales to sell outright and my reply is if I actually charged even a remotely fair rate for the amount of labor hours in building one it would be a $5000+ boat (and that was nitro). Why spend the time researching, documenting and duplicating a real unlimited that will run mid to upper 60s (or faster IF you are willing to spend the time) when you can fork over a fistful of cash to some of FE builders doing it for profit and get handed a 80+ plus mph turn key twin cat boat with a wow factor of 10. And this isn't limited to FE, seeing the same thing in gas scale, most guys building them already run nitro scales. Building a nice scale unlimited is a labor of love and something that conflicts with today's plug and play mindset.....
    Futaba Team Driver
    - IMPBA Hydro Technical Director -

  26. #86
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    Don, this holds true but less so with 10th scale too. You can get into a limited mono for little cash and race. Bada bing! Yer race'n.

    10th scale is a tougher build, more tweaking, etc but way less cash out of pocket than an 1/8th. So we get guys willing to take a chance. They look really cool on the water and guys giggle when they run or even see them run. The enthusiasm is pretty contagious. Even for the grizzled vets. You can't help but want in on the fun. Zola has a Bud that rides so hard you think you can hear the driver screaming as he goes by. He better be wearing a mouth guard or something.

    The pair of Neu I have used for scale were the most expensive motors I've ever purchased. Then 10s. Then a speedo that can handle it. It's not any one piece of the puzzle. It's the whole picture that makes it pricey. I love the look and feel of the 1/8 scales but you don't get quite the same spark from dudes when they have spent all that dough. My perception.

    All the charging, plugging in 10s, countless hours to build...........place that $2k in the water and rely on the wisp of technology between you and it. Now throw in 3 or 4 more guys on the course. 5 boats is $10k+ circling the pond at WOT. Make a mistake......have a glitch........ugh. Pretty daunting. The instant gratification guys don't know what any of that really feels like. Not everyone can handle it.
    Noisy person

  27. #87
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    Wish I had the wood skills to build an 1/8th scale, the whip 20 I tried to build was nothing short of hilarious !

    Cheers, Jay.

  28. #88
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    Jay

    I will build one for you, $20/Hr. plus material.

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

  29. #89
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    Well I felt had to weight in here again because I feel really responsible for this subject even being brought up. I had asked Terry about it when I started to read through the rules IMPBA had established on 1/8 scales which NAMBA did not have. I had built my ML boatworks Elam 1/8 scale according to NAMBA rules. Well after motor and ESC problems in 2016 I figured I would need to research the possibility of motoring up. I was not going to be close to being competitive with this heavy boat with a NEU 1527. Sure I can prop down and just run laps, but that was not why I built the boat. It was built to race.
    Don & Doug ……I agree with you both. When I researched building a 1/8 scale, I was hooked after looking through every post on your builds and watching some of the boats running. Actually when we talk about this being a gentleman’s class I really think it could be considered the gentleman’s elite class because the building of an 1/8 scale is not like any build that you would incur with a sport boat and that includes an RTR – plug and play 1/8 scale. I think I just figured out what really makes it the special class and it’s the build not the driving or the motor. As Don said….”Building a nice scale unlimited is a labor of love”…… I could not agree more. I always thought it would be great to have the opportunity to meet you guys and get some 1/8 scale racing in while of course learning a ton of information. {i.e. Like Don….how the heck did you get your Elam light enough to be running in the 60’s…LOL}
    When you have the amount of time, money and effort into a boat like this….believe me, the last thing you want to be is some crazy driver out there jeopardizing your boat or anyone else’s. But then during our MI cup event we did have that with one entry that Terry mentioned….an RTR Elam that was way to fast and unstable. Pretty scary for those of us that have the all this time and money into one of these.
    I built this 1/8 scale on NAMBA rules with the intentions of being able to run it at not just the MI Cup race. It built this so I would have the opportunity to run it at other NAMBA scale events that had 1/8 scale built around the same set of rules. Not have an 1/8 scale for this club sponsored event and a complete different set of rules for another club open event. (Motors to be specific) That is just crazy. I would expect that IMPBA has a set of rules for 1/8 scale and all events under IMPBA would hold true.
    I will however go with Terry on this that the motor specs or lack of a motor spec in IMPBA rules is not what should be a determining factor for maintaining the integrity of the class and the sport. I think Don pointed it very well and that’s the build. As Don has pointed out it could be easily $5,000 + for someone to build a nice built up 1/8 scale for someone. And of course some us already know the time and effort +$ put into these boats. So make it a spec 1/8 scale class where the hulls need to be a built up hull of plywood for bulk heads, sponson bulkheads, ply sheeting for hull and decking. All canopy’s fairings and mock up motors can be of fiberglass or formed plastic. Leave the motor specs open or at least include some options that gives some of us a chance to be competitive based on the design of the boat.
    We all need to be willing to collaborate on this issue so that it will take us forward in a direction that will maintain the integrity of this 1/8 scale class and the drivers that run them. If you want to have no chance in generating new 1/8 scale builders and drivers or worse to have it die completely then let it go in the direction its going. We should not let change be our fear, but have it be our challenge. I think with the smart people we have here we should be able to move forward to a smart solution.

  30. #90
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    IMPBA has motor specs...NAMBA doesn't.

    Building is all fine and dandy...but that's not what makes a 1/8 scale hydro as per IMPBA rules (as stated above).

    NAMBA has a master hull roster that controls what boats can be built (if I read their rule book correctly)...IMPBA does not (from what I have read). They have one for gas, but nothing in the rules in the FE section to tie it to FE 1/8ths.

    So as Terry started this thread, and represents a IMPBA club...I'll assume that he's looking to get input on IMPBA 1/8ths.

    So people can go on about the costs and time they have incurred in building these boats...but it doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.


    And Jake, Pete got it from Ressor...I have a pic from our London days of Steve holding that boat he built


    All of this also supports just how stupid it is that there are 2 boating orgs that are similar...but not the same...just different enough to drive people nuts and in some case throw up their hands in frustration.
    Last edited by Doby; 01-20-2017 at 11:59 PM.

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