Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Results 121 to 142 of 142

Thread: Scale

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    or
    Posts
    1,036

    Default

    Two comments.

    1. The RCU rules may look ridiculous to the outsider, but it's the only club I know of that fields several heats of FE 1/8 scale at every club race.

    2. Just because you have the time/money/interest to build an 1/8 scale doesn't mean you'll be able to drive it well in traffic. Like every other class, you have some great drivers and some at the other end of the bell curve.
    Brian "Snowman" Buaas
    Team Castle Creations
    NAMBA FE Chairman

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ga
    Posts
    5,159

    Default

    TOY BOAT RACER
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    On
    Posts
    7,250

    Default

    [QUOTE=raptor347;683561]Two comments.

    1. The RCU rules may look ridiculous to the outsider, but it's the only club I know of that fields several heats of FE 1/8 scale at every club race.

    Brian:

    I don't think anyone said the rules look ridiculous...and as you said, its working for them..thats what its all about.

    Perhaps the venues/clubs that actually have a chance of fielding enough 1/8ths for an particular event should just say damn the rules (IMPBA/NAMBA) and come up with their own to suit the racers /boats that they hope to attract.

    Its all about getting boats on the water.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    or
    Posts
    1,036

    Default

    Ridiculous probably wasn't an appropriate description, certainly very limiting. I'm also not sure they haven't modified the club rules since then. I know they're running HET motors as well.
    Brian "Snowman" Buaas
    Team Castle Creations
    NAMBA FE Chairman

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    1,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    Perhaps the venues/clubs that actually have a chance of fielding enough 1/8ths for an particular event should just say damn the rules (IMPBA/NAMBA) and come up with their own to suit the racers /boats that they hope to attract.

    Its all about getting boats on the water.
    Damn the rules?? Seriously?? Reality check on aisle one please! While I'm all about getting boats in the water the rules are there for a reason and God forbid there were to be a serious accident while not following "the rules". Just the kind of thing insurance underwriters look for to get out of a claim. Sadly we live in the age of liability and litigation and following the organization approved rules is a must. In the past we have seen litigation from an accident the person suing actually created by not following "the rules". Those rules and the fact the person chose to not follow them is want saved the org from being on the losing end of that. If you don't like the rules then write and submit a proposal to change them. Telling people damn the organization's rules and just make up your own is foolishness at the very least............
    Futaba Team Driver
    - IMPBA Hydro Technical Director -

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    On
    Posts
    7,250

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by don ferrette View Post
    Damn the rules?? Seriously?? Reality check on aisle one please! While I'm all about getting boats in the water the rules are there for a reason and God forbid there were to be a serious accident while not following "the rules". Just the kind of thing insurance underwriters look for to get out of a claim. Sadly we live in the age of liability and litigation and following the organization approved rules is a must. In the past we have seen litigation from an accident the person suing actually created by not following "the rules". Those rules and the fact the person chose to not follow them is want saved the org from being on the losing end of that. If you don't like the rules then write and submit a proposal to change them. Telling people damn the organization's rules and just make up your own is foolishness at the very least............
    OK, chill pill required.....

    From the IMPBA General Rules of Competition section of the Rule Book:

    "IV - GENERAL
    A. Sanctioned races will be run in accordance with all the rules in the IMPBA Rule Book. If a club wishes
    to deviate from these rules, the deviations must be prominently displayed on the race entry form. If a
    situation arises forcing a change from the established rules, it must be approved by a majority vote of
    the contestants at the drivers' meeting prior to the race. Under no circumstances may a rule be
    waived or altered that would reduce the safety of the event."

    I read this that as long as safety isn't affected, then anything can be deviated from as long as its on the entry form and nobody has a problem with it.

    Don, as you are apparently an IMPBA Tech Hydro guy, I would hope you would have know this. It is after all, in the rule book.

    All I'm trying to get at is for both Orgs to have a common set of rules for all classes. It makes more sense and would cause less headaches for anyone wanting to race their boats at both NAMBA and IMPBA events.

    Its all about getting boats on the water.


    I did find this little tidbit in the NAMBA rules, #2 is of particular concern:

    C. ENTRY LIMITATIONS AND QUALIFICATIONS
    1. Contestants in all NAMBA competitions will be limited to one boat per type/class in
    each event or competition.
    2. Two or more entrants may not race the same hull in the same class.

    I guess all the NAMBA races over the years that have allowed numerous Motley Crews/Miss Geicos/ Whiplashes/FE 30's/Delta Forces/Revolts/Pusuits etc....to run together in their respective class's (not heats) have been breaking a pretty major rule. It could be applicable 2 of the same 1/8ths show up at a NAMBA race as well.

    If a NAMBA club was to follow that rule (like the Michigan guys used to be) then all the MOST POPULAR CLASSES at the past years Michigan Cups would not even have been run.

    Boats on the water = common sense.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    5,676

    Default

    Only the safety rules jeopardize insurance coverage Don. Been through that a hundred times now. Guys want it to be different than that but it isn't.

    I just passed the the CD test for IMPBA. One of the test questions asks if an LSG27 can bump up to LSG36. LSG 36 has a minimum C.I. in the book yet the 27 boats have been allowed to jump up to LSG36 for years. Done all the time apparently. Don, are you suggesting that in so doing the events were un-insured?

    Honestly, after digging into the book and learning, it's not that difficult to propose a rule change. Nothing we're doing is getting boats on the water either way so why not make it as easy as possible to just be correct. We need 5 signatures and a district director or a chairman to send it to the BOD. The BOD decides what to do with it from there. There are multiple options for the BOD from there. It's sort of a sanity check. I like it. Keeps people from just passing something nutty. The BOD can squash a racing class where the boats have torpedo tubes for instance....................that actually sounds fun.

    Also, for electric scale, I don't feel registration should be required either. For what? There are no district races for FE to justify the $5 fee for awards. There's no provision for us to run them with nitro. Why register them? It's silly IMO.

    All that said, deviations from the book are allowed provided they are made part of the event advertising for the class (so racers know what to expect) AND so long as they don't violate the safety rules. I mean we can't just advertise that we're allowing plutonium cells or some such madness but scales with an open motor spec are just really pretty T sport boats so they aren't a safety issue. We couldn't ignore say the 25 pound limit or anything like that.
    Noisy person

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    GB
    Posts
    2,303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    "2. Two or more entrants may not race the same hull in the same class."
    I guess all the NAMBA races over the years that have allowed numerous Motley Crews/Miss Geicos/ Whiplashes/FE 30's/Delta Forces/Revolts/Pusuits etc....to run together in their respective class's (not heats) have been breaking a pretty major rule. It could be applicable 2 of the same 1/8ths show up at a NAMBA race as well.
    If a NAMBA club was to follow that rule (like the Michigan guys used to be) then all the MOST POPULAR CLASSES at the past years Michigan Cups would not even have been run.
    To me that reads differently to the way you are reading it Doby. I think it means that if you bring a friend/family racing, you can't both run your boat, you running it in heat 1 and then doing a quick battery swap and them running it 5 mins later in heat 2. You have to bow out of the class so he can run your boat, or lend him a spare if you have one, nothing to do with multiple hulls from the same few molds with the same paint jobs.

    Doesn't NAMBA's master hull roster prevent 2 of the same 1:8 scales from showing up at the same event?
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    5,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NativePaul View Post
    Doesn't NAMBA's master hull roster prevent 2 of the same 1:8 scales from showing up at the same event?
    No. The roster is just historical data of the full scale boats. Length, width, tunnel widths. That kind of thing. Why they call it a "roster" isn't clear to me.

    I believe Paul is reading that "same hull" rule correctly.
    Noisy person

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    5,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    Boats on the water = common sense.
    This has always been my thinking too. This hobby being as small as it is we're always going to be walking that fine line between competition and just fun run'n. If we're going to ignore this/that/those/them rules why have any at all? Why have a course? Why call it racing? Let's just chase each other around.

    This is the argument. At some point we're not even racing anymore. We'll be dancing around that forever IMO.

    In my head, for any given event, put yer finger in the wind and go with what will put butts on the driver stand and boats on the water. Don't create any unnecessary safety issues. Publish accordingly and go race.
    Noisy person

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    On
    Posts
    7,250

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NativePaul View Post
    To me that reads differently to the way you are reading it Doby. I think it means that if you bring a friend/family racing, you can't both run your boat, you running it in heat 1 and then doing a quick battery swap and them running it 5 mins later in heat 2. You have to bow out of the class so he can run your boat, or lend him a spare if you have one, nothing to do with multiple hulls from the same few molds with the same paint jobs.

    Doesn't NAMBA's master hull roster prevent 2 of the same 1:8 scales from showing up at the same event?
    See, and I read it the other way..and thats part of the problems with some of the rules...ambiguity.

  12. #132
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    5,676

    Default

    I was marked wrong on one of the CD safety questions because the book says something "should" be done but the question asks specifically if it "must" be done.

    Should is not must/shall. Semantics matter sometimes. Subtle but there is a difference.

    http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/modal3.html

    Makes me question other places the book uses "should". Are those in fact required or just recommended practices? I can tell you with absolute certainty that some are routinely ignored as suggestions at multiple venue I've raced at.
    Noisy person

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    GB
    Posts
    2,303

    Default

    I am not after the rules as such, but I am curious to know what scale racers think of fictitious boats. I want to make a Tide hydro, but I know there is already a Tide here in the UK, and while I love the boat I would like it to be unique just in case we met up for an informal race sometime. My racing colours are very similar to Miss Bardahl, so I would like to do that scheme, but I wonder if it would be frowned upon to make an early '90s modern Miss Bardahl that never existed?
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  14. #134
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    On
    Posts
    7,250

    Default

    I personally like the idea of fictitious paint schemes on boats

    But....that would be against the rules here...not sure about across the pond though.

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    1,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Only the safety rules jeopardize insurance coverage Don. Been through that a hundred times now. Guys want it to be different than that but it isn't.
    True to a point, but this wasn't a selective thing rather just the broad brush stroke of the statement of "damn the rules". But hey let's play devil's advocate for a minute........

    So a club says "damn the rules" and decides 12S is ok for a class. Not really a safety thing as plenty of boaters that "don't race" run 12S right? So let's say there's a bad accident and someone gets seriously injured by a 12S powered boat. The first thing an insurance underwriter will look at is a way to get out of a claim. Guess what? By organization rules that wasn't a legally recognized boat, what was it doing running in a sanctioned INSURED event? Seem far fetched? Sadly it's not as I've seen and had enough experience with these bottom feeders to know that they will do anything to get out of paying a claim. Common sense would dictate that it being a 10 or 12S boat wouldn't have prevented the accident but that's not how it would work in the legal world. It sucks but it is what it is............
    Futaba Team Driver
    - IMPBA Hydro Technical Director -

  16. #136
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    On
    Posts
    7,250

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by don ferrette View Post
    True to a point, but this wasn't a selective thing rather just the broad brush stroke of the statement of "damn the rules". But hey let's play devil's advocate for a minute........

    So a club says "damn the rules" and decides 12S is ok for a class. Not really a safety thing as plenty of boaters that "don't race" run 12S right? So let's say there's a bad accident and someone gets seriously injured by a 12S powered boat. The first thing an insurance underwriter will look at is a way to get out of a claim. Guess what? By organization rules that wasn't a legally recognized boat, what was it doing running in a sanctioned INSURED event? Seem far fetched? Sadly it's not as I've seen and had enough experience with these bottom feeders to know that they will do anything to get out of paying a claim. Common sense would dictate that it being a 10 or 12S boat wouldn't have prevented the accident but that's not how it would work in the legal world. It sucks but it is what it is............

    Well Don, as the IMPBA "Safety Rules" clearly have a Max voltage listed, 12S would not be allowed to run.

    As Terry stated, the safety rules are the ones that can't be "damned".

    Perhaps I should have said "Damn the rules, except for the safety ones"...would that have made you feel better?

    For you to state that 12S is "not really a safety thing" is a bit alarming.

  17. #137
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    Well...if we want to follow the rules...how many of us with 1/8ths have done this???

    2. Registration Procedures
    a. All boats must be registered with the District 1/8 scale Chairman.
    b. The District Chairman will require the following information in writing:
    I. Name, address and phone number.
    II. IMPBA number.
    III. Unlimited name, year raced, and number.
    IV. Length and beam of prototype boat and model.
    V. Prototype designer and boat colors.
    VI. Must submit a photo of prototype boat.
    VII. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
    registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
    Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
    high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.
    c. Boat must compete at a racing event within one year from registration.
    In the advent of FE Scale, Reesor & I followed the rules(above) when nobody else really cared in FE. Primarily to set an example an some IMPBA records. Still have my scale card somewhere, however we gave up after a while when all the ugly boats started creeping into competition(not you John). Would be nice to see IMPBA FE Scale grow (no matter what the rules are) just don't forget the fundamentals. The boats should appear and operate similar to the a identical boat that competed in Unlimited Hydro competition.

    I'm hoping to get back into Scale this year with my`Atlas' and a Scale`Miller High Life' hull project boat for the future. Friendly respectful competition is what I seek, not the latest monster motor overpowering another boat class. I could do that in P & Q etc. Sport (whatever IMPBA equivalent is). I'd like to be included in the loop if you guys plan on changing Scale rules first year clubs start rolling over into the IMPBA.
    Should be interesting!
    ~~~~~~~~`Mach 5 racing'~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ****2008/9 MMEU LSO, 2008 LSH CHAMP****
    ~~~~~~~70 MPH Club Member!~~~~~~~~~

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    5,676

    Default

    Back from the dead this thread.....

    1527/1.5y is on the list and is the most common scale motor. It's 825kv, 40mm x 105.5mm, 4 pole and weighs in at right around 618 grams.
    If there was a motor that was say 810kv, 59mmx81mm, weighed in at 690grams but had 10 poles would that seem apples to apples? So more weight and more than twice the pole count.

    It's a trick question. Some will recognize the numbers.
    Noisy person

  19. #139
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    On
    Posts
    7,250

    Default

    spec the can size an voltage...KISS.

  20. #140
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Back from the dead this thread.....

    1527/1.5y is on the list and is the most common scale motor. It's 825kv, 40mm x 105.5mm, 4 pole and weighs in at right around 618 grams.
    If there was a motor that was say 810kv, 59mmx81mm, weighed in at 690grams but had 10 poles would that seem apples to apples? So more weight and more than twice the pole count.

    It's a trick question. Some will recognize the numbers.
    Still running 10S I assume, would not have any objections.
    ~~~~~~~~`Mach 5 racing'~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ****2008/9 MMEU LSO, 2008 LSH CHAMP****
    ~~~~~~~70 MPH Club Member!~~~~~~~~~

  21. #141
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Back from the dead this thread.....

    1527/1.5y is on the list and is the most common scale motor. It's 825kv, 40mm x 105.5mm, 4 pole and weighs in at right around 618 grams.
    If there was a motor that was say 810kv, 59mmx81mm, weighed in at 690grams but had 10 poles would that seem apples to apples? So more weight and more than twice the pole count.

    It's a trick question. Some will recognize the numbers.
    Can of worms. Those motors were never any better than the Neu. SOUNDED WAY BETTER THOUGH! Makes the boats sound like Turbines.

  22. #142
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    5,676

    Default

    Yes Howard, but back in 2008 or so when the rules were written we were running 25c cells on 160amp esc. Some even less. Those were the weak links. Today you could run a 300amp flier and use more of the 10pole torque without baking it. In theory of course. Who knows what happens to the Plett at say 220 amps really. How it would stack against the Neu at the same draw isn't exactly clear either.

    Didn't Alan, run the Plett for an entire season against the nitro boys without losing a single heat? Were there any other sparkies in that mix? Can't remember.

    Point is, three entirely different motors with much different can sizes, different parameters entirely really. All on the list currently.

    Today, if you want one of the Plett motors they have to make you one as they prefer to sell their newer Kima motor. The Kima is in a similar can but has fewer poles. I knew you would recognize the numbers Howard. Especially with us having recently talked about these.

    The old Plett is about $850 delivered and takes 8 weeks
    Lehner 2280 is about $785 delivered
    Neu is about $325 delivered

    The Plett does come with a water jacket. The Lehner will need one as will the Neu. Makes the Lehner and the Plett about the same investment. Go figure. Neu is the cheapo route.

    A 56mmx83mm 6 pole TP is $159 plus shipping. Comes with a jacket. So only a little cheaper. 80% or so.
    Noisy person

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •