Scale

[T.S.Davis]

Hey guys, is anyone racing actual heats in scale unlimited? Is there a venue that puts together heats anywhere?

Can we talk about the motors list? I know why it's there. Attempted cost check. Does it make any sense in 2017? You could get a killer TP or even a Leopard to push a scale for half of what a Lehner 2280 costs. A 56 series would be best but NOPE not legal.

[Doug Smock]

I knew this subject was going to come up again.
Remember with the introduction of lithium the sky was falling and the argument was heat racing and destroying 80-100 mph scales?
Is this still a concern? If so what limits do you place on the class? How do we enforce (tech)it?

I'm not aware of any venue in the IMPBA that consistently offers and builds heats of FE Scale. My Scale has only run in one FE only race and that was the Mich. Cup. (three boats entered that year) Other than that it races the 60s when allowed. It will be interesting to see if we can attract enough Scales at the Spring Nats. to separate FE and the 60s.

Will a motor rule change put more FE Scales on the pond? I doubt it, they are expensive boats, and not everyone's cup of tea. However, I am interested in seeing if opinions have changed.

D.

[Fluid]

Terry, what does "technical approval" mean? This may be a route to the use of other motors, particularly if the "approval" doesn't mean a national committee must be involved.


.

[T.S.Davis]

I don't know Doug. I guess I'm curious too. I don't think opening up a the spec will add or detract from it. Like you said, they take a tin of dough to do. Allowing more motor options might make it easier to get into it.

I guess I could nmake the argument that the motor spec is keeping me out of scale. I have a scale I've been working on for years. Still not quite right but getting there. I can't bring it to Atlanta though as it isn't legal for IMPBA. Tom Schlarb has a beautiful Winston Eagle he wants to bring to the Cup. Not legal. We have an Elam in our club that the owner wants to try a TP in........not legal.

I thought the limits' intent was to keep scale from turning into an arms race where the deepest pocket wins. I rember thinking then that the notion that "budget" and "scale" could coexist was nonsense. These suckers are outrageous dollars no matter the motor.

Jay, that whole "tech approval" thing might just be Chris. I'm pretty confident he's not seen too many scales.

We've not had the limit in NAMBA either and the results aren't much different. Cost and probably the skill required to build one is still the real deterant.

So........what's the spec doing for anyone. Guy shows up with an 1/8 scale under 10s. Let him run.

[don ferrette]

Hey guys, is anyone racing actual heats in scale unlimited? Is there a venue that puts together heats anywhere?

Can we talk about the motors list? I know why it's there. Attempted cost check. Does it make any sense in 2017? You could get a killer TP or even a Leopard to push a scale for half of what a Lehner 2280 costs. A 56 series would be best but NOPE not legal.

I looked at this motor thing a short while back after a couple district guys wanted to understand why the motor rule was like it is. It really had nothing to do with a cost check, if that were the case the Lehner surely wouldn't be on that list, LOL! Those rules were written when the motor selection was far less than it is now and lipos didn't exist. After spending a fair amount of time on it my opinion is if changes are made (which have to be BOD and membership approved) a good approach might be to limit motor can length and diameter. I feel you're only gonna get so much out of a given armature size but that's just my thoughts. Doug is spot on with his assessment of the class- it's a specialty class and not everyone's cup of tea. No matter if it's nitro, FE or gas powered building a scale unlimited hydro costs money and requires a lot of effort. Sadly, and I know this will ruffle feathers, the effort part will be what holds it back as it seems every year the average boater is becoming more "lazy" and wants instant gratification rather than spending time and effort to create something like a nice scale boat. Scale racing will always be a niche class and I'm truly disappointed at what the "plug and play" mentality is doing to our hobby.............

[Doug Smock]

It's not as easy as just getting technical approval. A change to National rules would require a proposal that would be handled as follows.

1. Rule Proposal under General Rules of Competition, Contest & Racing Rules, Technical
Standards, and Classes
a) Option #1 - All rule proposals supported by a majority of the Executive Board, will
automatically undergo a trial period for one year (except as noted in section 1, C). After
one year, the proposal will be distributed to IMPBA membership with a ballot that will
require a head count for and against the proposal. Ballots shall be returned to the
respective District Director or the IMPBA secretary within the time stipulated. The final
vote of the Executive Board will be effective with the next quarterly report.
b) Option #2 - Board members vote by majority to turn down a submitted proposal. This
option terminates the proposal.
c) Option #3 - All rule proposals not supported and not terminated under option #2 by the
Board, will be distributed to IMPBA membership for vote by a ballot that will require a
head count for or against the proposal. The membership vote will determine the
implementation of said proposal and, if passed, will be effective with the next quarterly
report.
All Racing Rule proposals reviewed by the Board will be published in the Roostertail for
one full quarter before being voted on by the membership in the following calendar
quarter with the exception of one-year trials.
d) Option #4- Board members vote by majority to indefinitely table a submitted proposal.
This option allows a proposal to be revisited at a later time determined at Boards
discretion. A majority vote of the board required to re-visit proposal.

[Doug Smock]

Terry,
You can allow other motors in scale at the Michigan Cup (since it is not the IMPBA FE Nationals) by listing any rule deviation on the race sanction and flier. As you know you cannot deviate from length, voltage, weight limit, & safety rules.

Doug

[photohoward1]

I was part of that rules Group. We put it in so we would have scale speeds. We did not want to go 80-100 mph. We wanted to compete with the 60 size scale Nitros. The example was Alan and I were running Pletts, You might Run a 2280 or a 1527 at the time. All very equal in performance and could get you between 50-60 mph. We wanted to keep out a Moron like me putting in a 3060 0r 3080 or even a 2030 Neu in the boats. Besides no on wants to blow a scale over. Very Messy. I think you should do what you have done for the Michigan limited series. Spec a motor size and length. Going to be tough though. My plett is Fatter but shorter than a 2280 but about the same wattage. Maybe we can spec wattage?

[T.S.Davis]

The nitro guys don't want to run with us anyway. Not because they're butt heads or anything. It's just too confusing for them and if you beat them you've done so with something they don't understand. It's like rubbing an open sore for them.

I wanted to build a light scale on 6s if your remember Howard.

The NAMBA scale rules were written in a hotel room in Jersey by Ken, Waters, and myself in 2006.

I don't guess it matters what we do. The cost and effort is high to the point that most won't do it. Like Don mentioned, most want to plug n' play at 100mph.

[Doug Smock]

FWIW I think you guys were on the right track Howard. The current motors work running with the 60s yet some Nitro Scale racers are still opposed to running with comparable FEs. Like Terry, I get that too. Even though speeds are similar FEs pull harder out of the corner and..............

I agree that the boats are fast enough with the current motors. Motor size & length may be the only answer if a change is desired.

D.

[longballlumber]

I didn't take time to look it up, but how are TT handled with regards to the FE 1/8 Scale class? Are the motor requirements dropped?

[longballlumber]

I didn't take time to look it up, but how are TT handled with regards to the FE 1/8 Scale class? Are the motor requirements dropped?

Disregard... just read the rule set, and realized there isn't a KV limit, just motors.

Later,
Ball

[NativePaul]

Spec a motor size and length. Going to be tough though. My plett is Fatter but shorter than a 2280 but about the same wattage. Maybe we can spec wattage?

Specing a motor mass makes things a lot easier, the thermal mass dictates the rate that it will heat up, and would maintain energy parity between similarly efficient motors irrespective of diameter, length, and cooling solution. If you want a long thin Nue that is no problem just keep it under 800g (or whatever), 2280 no worries <800g, short fat TP no worries just keep it under 800g, want a fancy LK with cooling fan built into the motor, go ahead, but the weight it takes up mean you will have less copper and/or magnet, so you still get similar power.

The only issue with it is that more efficient motors of a given mass can produce more useful power before they overcome their ability to dissipate waste heat, just as size limited motors do, so it gives advantage to more efficient motors which tend to be more expensive. Open motors would not have that issue but would allow for much greater than .60 performance, and possibly faster than scale speeds.

[T.S.Davis]

My current scale is a converted nitro. Its heavy. 1527 won't push it.

[Todd Fleury]

Terry,
A Lehner or Plett would push that hog of yours.