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Thread: Scale

  1. #1
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    Hey guys, is anyone racing actual heats in scale unlimited? Is there a venue that puts together heats anywhere?

    Can we talk about the motors list? I know why it's there. Attempted cost check. Does it make any sense in 2017? You could get a killer TP or even a Leopard to push a scale for half of what a Lehner 2280 costs. A 56 series would be best but NOPE not legal.
    Noisy person

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    I knew this subject was going to come up again.
    Remember with the introduction of lithium the sky was falling and the argument was heat racing and destroying 80-100 mph scales?
    Is this still a concern? If so what limits do you place on the class? How do we enforce (tech)it?

    I'm not aware of any venue in the IMPBA that consistently offers and builds heats of FE Scale. My Scale has only run in one FE only race and that was the Mich. Cup. (three boats entered that year) Other than that it races the 60s when allowed. It will be interesting to see if we can attract enough Scales at the Spring Nats. to separate FE and the 60s.

    Will a motor rule change put more FE Scales on the pond? I doubt it, they are expensive boats, and not everyone's cup of tea. However, I am interested in seeing if opinions have changed.

    D.
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    Terry, what does "technical approval" mean? This may be a route to the use of other motors, particularly if the "approval" doesn't mean a national committee must be involved.


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    I don't know Doug. I guess I'm curious too. I don't think opening up a the spec will add or detract from it. Like you said, they take a tin of dough to do. Allowing more motor options might make it easier to get into it.

    I guess I could nmake the argument that the motor spec is keeping me out of scale. I have a scale I've been working on for years. Still not quite right but getting there. I can't bring it to Atlanta though as it isn't legal for IMPBA. Tom Schlarb has a beautiful Winston Eagle he wants to bring to the Cup. Not legal. We have an Elam in our club that the owner wants to try a TP in........not legal.

    I thought the limits' intent was to keep scale from turning into an arms race where the deepest pocket wins. I rember thinking then that the notion that "budget" and "scale" could coexist was nonsense. These suckers are outrageous dollars no matter the motor.

    Jay, that whole "tech approval" thing might just be Chris. I'm pretty confident he's not seen too many scales.

    We've not had the limit in NAMBA either and the results aren't much different. Cost and probably the skill required to build one is still the real deterant.

    So........what's the spec doing for anyone. Guy shows up with an 1/8 scale under 10s. Let him run.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Hey guys, is anyone racing actual heats in scale unlimited? Is there a venue that puts together heats anywhere?

    Can we talk about the motors list? I know why it's there. Attempted cost check. Does it make any sense in 2017? You could get a killer TP or even a Leopard to push a scale for half of what a Lehner 2280 costs. A 56 series would be best but NOPE not legal.
    I looked at this motor thing a short while back after a couple district guys wanted to understand why the motor rule was like it is. It really had nothing to do with a cost check, if that were the case the Lehner surely wouldn't be on that list, LOL! Those rules were written when the motor selection was far less than it is now and lipos didn't exist. After spending a fair amount of time on it my opinion is if changes are made (which have to be BOD and membership approved) a good approach might be to limit motor can length and diameter. I feel you're only gonna get so much out of a given armature size but that's just my thoughts. Doug is spot on with his assessment of the class- it's a specialty class and not everyone's cup of tea. No matter if it's nitro, FE or gas powered building a scale unlimited hydro costs money and requires a lot of effort. Sadly, and I know this will ruffle feathers, the effort part will be what holds it back as it seems every year the average boater is becoming more "lazy" and wants instant gratification rather than spending time and effort to create something like a nice scale boat. Scale racing will always be a niche class and I'm truly disappointed at what the "plug and play" mentality is doing to our hobby.............
    Futaba Team Driver
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    It's not as easy as just getting technical approval. A change to National rules would require a proposal that would be handled as follows.

    1. Rule Proposal under General Rules of Competition, Contest & Racing Rules, Technical
    Standards, and Classes
    a) Option #1 - All rule proposals supported by a majority of the Executive Board, will
    automatically undergo a trial period for one year (except as noted in section 1, C). After
    one year, the proposal will be distributed to IMPBA membership with a ballot that will
    require a head count for and against the proposal. Ballots shall be returned to the
    respective District Director or the IMPBA secretary within the time stipulated. The final
    vote of the Executive Board will be effective with the next quarterly report.
    b) Option #2 - Board members vote by majority to turn down a submitted proposal. This
    option terminates the proposal.
    c) Option #3 - All rule proposals not supported and not terminated under option #2 by the
    Board, will be distributed to IMPBA membership for vote by a ballot that will require a
    head count for or against the proposal. The membership vote will determine the
    implementation of said proposal and, if passed, will be effective with the next quarterly
    report.
    All Racing Rule proposals reviewed by the Board will be published in the Roostertail for
    one full quarter before being voted on by the membership in the following calendar
    quarter with the exception of one-year trials.
    d) Option #4- Board members vote by majority to indefinitely table a submitted proposal.
    This option allows a proposal to be revisited at a later time determined at Boards
    discretion. A majority vote of the board required to re-visit proposal.
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    Terry,
    You can allow other motors in scale at the Michigan Cup (since it is not the IMPBA FE Nationals) by listing any rule deviation on the race sanction and flier. As you know you cannot deviate from length, voltage, weight limit, & safety rules.

    Doug
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    I was part of that rules Group. We put it in so we would have scale speeds. We did not want to go 80-100 mph. We wanted to compete with the 60 size scale Nitros. The example was Alan and I were running Pletts, You might Run a 2280 or a 1527 at the time. All very equal in performance and could get you between 50-60 mph. We wanted to keep out a Moron like me putting in a 3060 0r 3080 or even a 2030 Neu in the boats. Besides no on wants to blow a scale over. Very Messy. I think you should do what you have done for the Michigan limited series. Spec a motor size and length. Going to be tough though. My plett is Fatter but shorter than a 2280 but about the same wattage. Maybe we can spec wattage?

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    The nitro guys don't want to run with us anyway. Not because they're butt heads or anything. It's just too confusing for them and if you beat them you've done so with something they don't understand. It's like rubbing an open sore for them.

    I wanted to build a light scale on 6s if your remember Howard.

    The NAMBA scale rules were written in a hotel room in Jersey by Ken, Waters, and myself in 2006.

    I don't guess it matters what we do. The cost and effort is high to the point that most won't do it. Like Don mentioned, most want to plug n' play at 100mph.
    Noisy person

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    FWIW I think you guys were on the right track Howard. The current motors work running with the 60s yet some Nitro Scale racers are still opposed to running with comparable FEs. Like Terry, I get that too. Even though speeds are similar FEs pull harder out of the corner and..............

    I agree that the boats are fast enough with the current motors. Motor size & length may be the only answer if a change is desired.

    D.
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    I didn't take time to look it up, but how are TT handled with regards to the FE 1/8 Scale class? Are the motor requirements dropped?

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    Quote Originally Posted by longballlumber View Post
    I didn't take time to look it up, but how are TT handled with regards to the FE 1/8 Scale class? Are the motor requirements dropped?
    Disregard... just read the rule set, and realized there isn't a KV limit, just motors.

    Later,
    Ball

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    Quote Originally Posted by photohoward1 View Post
    Spec a motor size and length. Going to be tough though. My plett is Fatter but shorter than a 2280 but about the same wattage. Maybe we can spec wattage?
    Specing a motor mass makes things a lot easier, the thermal mass dictates the rate that it will heat up, and would maintain energy parity between similarly efficient motors irrespective of diameter, length, and cooling solution. If you want a long thin Nue that is no problem just keep it under 800g (or whatever), 2280 no worries <800g, short fat TP no worries just keep it under 800g, want a fancy LK with cooling fan built into the motor, go ahead, but the weight it takes up mean you will have less copper and/or magnet, so you still get similar power.

    The only issue with it is that more efficient motors of a given mass can produce more useful power before they overcome their ability to dissipate waste heat, just as size limited motors do, so it gives advantage to more efficient motors which tend to be more expensive. Open motors would not have that issue but would allow for much greater than .60 performance, and possibly faster than scale speeds.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

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    My current scale is a converted nitro. Its heavy. 1527 won't push it.
    Noisy person

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    Terry,
    A Lehner or Plett would push that hog of yours.

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    Default Thanks Terry and all that are weighing in...

    Terry, Doug and Don.......

    Saw Terry had brought up the motor specs for 1/8 scale on a new thread here. I really appreciate the discussion and find out the thought process behind the rule. Seems to be some different view points, ALL that make since. Since MMEU has changed over to IMPBA I have been looking at all the rules and making sure that I am within spec on all my boats. I had actually raised the question on 1.8 scale power specs to Terry because I would really like to race my Elam boat not just the MI Cup race, but more this year in IMPBA events, including the Spring Nationals.

    As Don and Doug know I had spent countless hours on that boat...(Not to say all the questions that Doug and Don answered for me>>>>Really appreciate guys!!) The boat is the pride of my fleet and turned out beautifully!! The boat also turned out really heavy (20lbs) with the NEU 1527. Both the ETTI ESC and the 1527 burned up in the first heat at the MI Cup race. Figured it was due to the weight and prop selection that I was advised by many that the 1527 could handle. Well after a lot of research and questions maybe that 1527 is a bit to small for that boat. All I would like is for it to be competitive not an 80Mph boat and not burn up motors and/or ESC's.

    Really good point on wanting to maintain a scale speed appearance and not get these things going to fast. With the time and money that most of us have into these boats it is always nice when everything comes back in one piece.... I am kind of leaning with you guys on the RTR's that can also be run in this class. Not a real fan of the RTR 1/8 scale running in some of these events especially if they do not meet boat specifications or motor requirements....which most of us take extra time and money to make sure they meet those sepcs.

    So when it comes to motor not sure why we wouldn't have them be more in line with the way rules are set via using dia., length, Kv and possibly weight. Like it has been said the line of manufactured motors listed really puts a strain on things for most of us on a budget. And yes that includes me...LOL

    Would this attract more 1/8 scales to the sport??....Not sure, but it certainly should not decrease. There is no doubt that these 1/8 scales are pricey and a lot of effort goes into them, but the way motor requirements are listed it does lend it self to who has the money to lunch out on a more efficient motor.....i.e. Lehner. Which in turn makes them more competitive......IM-limitedHO.....

    Thanks for listening guys....be interesting to see more discussion...

    Mike
    Last edited by Speed810; 01-16-2017 at 11:23 AM.

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    Hey Mike & Terry

    What motors are you currently running in your Scales? What motor is most common in NAMBA 1/8 scale?

    D.
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    Now that I think about it.......scale speed? WTH is that? What does that even mean? Totally subjective. You can't put a number on it. Math doesn't really work because the water doesn't scale. We've all been through this discussion.

    Every time I go to the real races I'm struck by how far out on the ragged edge these guys are running. Tell them they're going too fast. When I watch our scale boats run I don't think ragged edge.

    Scale Unlimiteds...................unlimiteds........... ...uhm...........unlimiteds. "But we need limits" Lets put a max speed on them. Being a weeny now. Are we racing or are we just worried about the "look"? I know scale boats are prettier than most but the ragged edge is the point of racing if I remember correctly.

    NAMBA has not had the motor list and we aren't going 80 plus. NAMBA has also likely fielded more heats than IMPBA. Still no 80 mph boats.

    This is like all the 100mph heat boats that the doom and gloomers predicted we were going to see if we allowed parallel cells when LiPo came out. IMPBA took it further with no Mah restrictions. Seen any 100mph P mono oval boats? That's because it's not practical. Seen any 80mph oval scales? That's because it isn't practical.

    You can push a heavy scale on a 1527 with a tiny armature at a bunch of amps or you can turn a big motor at less amps with a decent prop. The assumption that more motor choices equates to a 20 mph gain isn't what has happened.

    Unless you drop down into the 600kv range a Lehner 2280 doesn't have the torque to push a heavy scale. Been there done that. There a reason that guys have run the 1527 since 2006. The Plett has the torque with multiple poles but I've not messed with those at all. Hell of a commitment on a guess since the data is hard to come by.

    Doug, 1527 is still the goto motor but once your boat gets heavy forget it. I'm running a 2217 at the moment.

    If your boat is heavy and you run IMPBA you won't be able to race it. At the CanAm we had 2 of 4 entries that were legal. Instead of allowing other motors they called us T sport. We all knew what the class was though.
    Noisy person

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    This is interesting too.

    The guys that collaborated on the IMPBA motor list.........take a stab at how many of them are still racing scale? Two of those guys don't even own boats anymore.
    Noisy person

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    Doug,

    Really can't add much here seeing that I have not really had the chance to run many 1/8 scale events. When in NAMBA the past few years the 1527 seemed to be a common motor on the lighter scale boats, but it appeared that larger motors were being used in the more modern scales. i.e. heavier boats. So after all the problems that I had last year and a lot of research decided to motor up. Now that we are IMPBA that takes all that off the table. Now I have a beautiful anchor....LOL

    Yes, the club could make special considerations for an event as they did at the CanAm or for this years MI Cup....but that still doesn't make it more inviting or cost effective for those of us that would like to race at other IMPBA events. Have to agree with Terry on the class title... it is called "Unlimited". Not that I would ever look at this scale reaching even 75 to 80Mph....that's just to darn scary.....[and I'm Old].....LOL Plus the investment in one of these boats is a big consideration when racing, certainly don't want to wreck one of these or god forbid anyone else's boat.

    But would sure like to have a boat that is capable of having a motor in it that I know fits the weight and prop configuration that will push the boat competitively without burning everything up.

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    Scale speed it the square of the scale factor which takes in to account not only scaling the distance, but scaling the time too (many people (mainly in the car world) forget to account for scaling the time and just divide by the scale factor which is very obviously incorrect, but for some reason believe it anyway). For 1:8 scale you divide the real boat's speed by 2.83, We don't have H1 boats here, so I don't actually know how fast they go, but the H1 site says in excess of 200mph in the straightaway and 200MPH works out at 71mph, the 220mph SAW record works out at 78mph. I guess the scale speeds should be somewhere in the low 70s.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

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    Terry..at the Cup this year...what motors are going to be allowed in the 1/8th scale...the Plett in my (Ressor's old) Executone died a few seasons ago and I'm thinking of resurrecting it, but instead of 10S..I'd like to do an 8S setup (IMPBA rules allow T and S voltages)..Its a light boat, runs really dry..could almost do 3 full heats on 10,000Mah with the 10S setup. I'd love to go with a Leopard of some suitable kv for 8S.

    I guess what I'm asking is, will the race flyer state other acceptable motors?

    What would be a good kv for 8S? Never done an 8S setup...lots of 10S's..just not 8S.

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    Terry I get it, sure do. I was very anxious when I ran the Squire for the first time. The boat is heavy +17#s IIRC. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the 1527. I understand wanting (actually needing) more motor for the heavier boats. When I came to the Michigan Cup it was the first time I had seen in person any FE Scales other than my own. Pags boat is a fraction of the weight of mine, I was surprised actually.
    There is only one way I could get my boat to really be a problem for him.........more motor. I haven't tried, but I'm sure prop won't get me there without hurting something. Michigan certainly wasn't the place to try it. lol

    I understand where you're at Mike, I have the only FE Scale in D13. It sits on a shelf and only runs a few times a year.

    I will say this about the Spring Nats. If we get enough 60s to make a class, and enough FE interest to do the same, I will approach the District and racers entered about lifting the motor limit so you guys can run. Nothing would make me happier. I'd love to see and participate in full heat of FE Scales, that would be a first for me.
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    I would not push a TP too hard. Just received an email from them saying motors are only rated to 80*C.

    My 4070 is now a paper weight.
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    Doug....

    I hear ya. It would be great to run some full heats of 1/8 scale down there. Exactly what you are concerned with is what happened to me at last years cup race.
    Tried pushing the 1527 with to much prop to keep up with some of the other boats and it was hot out....blew both the ESC and motor. Pags ended up loaning me another 1527...propped down and at least got in a few heats on the second day. It was nice just to see it on the water, but it was really not competitive speed wise. Should have the 1527 back soon, Pags sent out for me to be re-wound and all.

    Really have a problem and dilemma here.....I can just leave the 1527 in the boat and try to just turn laps. But if I decide to motor up it means replacing the motor mount and cutting out and replacing the stuffing tube because the angle is all going to be different for a 56 motor. It would be nice if I could find out before hand....:) Heck....maybe I'll throw that 56 motor in it anyway and hope for the best in up coming events....can't really run it the way it is.
    Hope to see you down there in ATL in the spring Doug!!!

    Hey Ray....I also talked with them along with Brian B and Mike at ML Boats. The motor would be the 5660 642Kv on 10S. The 4070 would not do anything for me in this 1/8 scale....From what I understand that 5660 will actually be a great fit for the weight of this boat and still run plenty cool. Power wise I think its going to make you really drive this boat....not just hold the trigger and let it go....LOL

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    What prop were you running Mike? I haven't strayed from a m cut 450/3.
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    Yeah, you need a 56mm motor.

    TP works. I had an SSS 5684-1200kv motor in a heavy 40" mono on 6S2P. Ran great and cold. It was a setup to beat on. Almost wish I kept it but too damn big for me anymore. I could crank 57mm props without breaking a sweat. Shoulda kept the motor at least and put it in a Whip 40.
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    Hey Doug...was running an cupped X450(3) and when I blew everything I was running a cut back X452(3).
    I had run the 452 one other time and it had really come back hot, but did pick up on some speed. Had Mark Shouland cut some diameter out to cut down the blade area. But it was just to much I guess.

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    I am all for going with a can diameter and length, but I do not agree with putting a soda can motor in a scale boat. That is not the purpose of the class. It is a driver and gentleman's class.

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