Zelos 48: Modding, Running, & Setup Discussion

[IRON-PAWW]

Plenty of discussion on the Zelos 36 here. I want to start a thread about how people are running their Zelos 48's. I'm trying to tweak how mine runs and info on the web is a little thin so far.

I really don't want discussions here about issues with warranty, and out of box damage. Those have been discussed at length in the other thread. Suffered it myself - and I've got sympathy - but I want to move on.

I've got a few snippets of info from the RC Groups thread and also from people who also run cats of this size at club meets etc. But I need Zelos 48 specific discussion.

Got 2 hulls now. Hull #1 is all stock. Hull #2 is my warranty hull that the Australian Importer graciously allowed me to keep. I'm currently strengthening and building up hull #2 into a working boat - more on that later.


But on Hull #1
I've put a SF300 datalogging ESC into it to try and get some amp draw figures on some props I have to test. For interest really - but also to get a better idea of what is going on. So this hull is stock, with basic carbon fibre strengthening, and a dual-pickup speedmaster rudder. The 300A swordfish was just a spare I had - no other reason for choosing it than that.

Here's my first run with an ABC 2015 17°. By my calcs that translates to a 50.8mm 1.5 pitch prop. The only thing to add to these results is that the motor plugs got hot. Wondering if that might be a timing issue or just an issue with the connectors - or... the prop. boat went 55mph which is slightly under what I got with the 48mm 3 blade from OSE - with stock ESC.

So - hoping to get some comment back on these results. Amp draw seems a bit up there......?

Parameters



Motor RPM - Can someone Explain what the "Gear Rate" is?



Current



Throttle



Temp



Voltage

[IRON-PAWW]

Think I found a suspect for the hot plugs. Not soldered all that well. I switched out to better quality 8mm connectors all round. Will see how it goes.

[IRON-PAWW]

On the rebuild hull. I found that 2 of the Horizon replacement flex shafts are out of wonk somehow. Spin up the driveline with them installed and the prop vibrates as if the shaft is bent. Install one that I know is true and problem is gone. Prepping an OSE flex now. Thankfully I included it in the last order..... just in case. Will report back results.

[IRON-PAWW]

So something else I found running this hull with the stock setup was that the end of the motor closest the ESC got hot (120F) during runs. Excuse the messy photo but it shows the stock cooler and motor setup. Because the wires exit through the side of the motor can, the maximum size of motor cooler possible is affected when factored in with the motor mount. By my measurements - the stock cooler measures about 60mm - and you can see that quite a bit of motor length remains uncooled. So you end up with a hotspot during runs. Nothing drastic - but there nonetheless.





To keep costs down with the rebuild hull, and because Steve was out of TP motors, I've thrown in a 1000kv Leopard 5692. Same 56mm diameter motor as the stock Dynamite motor from Horizon. Damn sight cheaper too so it'll be interesting to see if the leopard is anywhere close to the stock motor. I've got doubts..... But in any case I had to mod the motor mountings to fit the 75mm leopard cooler. I just had to extend the the CF mountings rearward some, and then grind the rear motor ring a little in spots to fit partially over the motor can screws. Absolutely worth it - because the motor ends up cooled along most of the can length. Yes that's an MBP collet as well. Threw it in the order - why not....





So I'm not sure if others get that same motor hotspot with their 48's - but having the wires exit where they do on the stock motor makes this mod impossible. Not a huge issue as I said earlier - but as I was rebuilding this hull anyway.....

It's actually close to finished so I may get to run the rebuilt hull soon.

No more runs on the datalogger for the other load testing hull as yet.

[fweasel]

Looks like pretty tight gap between the collet and stuffing tube. Going to be hard to wipe the flex cable clean before it gets into the collet. All of my boats are still running on the original Dynamite motors and coolers. After having several torn apart, there isn't much inside along the last 10mm or so of the can to cool anyways. Although, more surface area is always a good thing.

[Rafael_Lopez]

Looks good.

[IRON-PAWW]

Cheers lads. Good to see you on the forum again Rafael! Looks like you lit a fuse under that 36 hull!

fweasel: Yep - with the MBP collet the gap isn't huge - and cleaning the grease off the cable when installing the flex is an art...... but doable. The OSE cable turned out to be smooth and wobble/vibration free. Good stuff. My Stock motor *always* gets hotter (120f) up the ESC end so that's why I was looking at ways to try and make that a little better. Just me tinkering....

Ran the Data Logger hull again today, still with the ABC 2015. I was getting hot motor plugs, so I swapped out the connectors with 8mm bullets. Ran the boat with auto timing on the ESC - and the motor and plugs still got hotter than usual, but the plugs were far better than last time. Then for the second run I switched to fixed 8° timing. The motor and plugs were noticeably cooler after that run. Speed was the same on both settings at around 85km/h (53mph). I've not got great speed with the ABC 2015 but it's turned out to be my baseline prop for these tests. With the heat under control - I might try either swapping back to the 48mm 3 blade or upping the timing slightly and see what results I get. I do note that many say the data logging Swordfish ESC's kill around 5mph. Kieth Bradley even has a note to that effect on their website in their online shop. Note too that the Stock ESC for the 48 is set at 7.5° timing by default.

Interesting too is that I took the rebuild hull for it's first spin today. Non data-logging Swordfish 300 in there. D-wind Leopard 5692 1000kv. 48mm 3 blade prop. 80km/h (50mph). Both runs. With auto timing the leopard got hot too. 8° timing on the second run and the heat was much much better. Interesting.

Still a little bounce to trim out of the hulls so I might gain a little speed with that bedded down a little more. Wind and conditions etc etc seem to play a bigger part in how this hull runs than anything else I own. Spectators loved em......

RPM ABC 2015



CURRENT ABC 2015



THROTTLE ABC 2015



TEMP ABC 2015



VOLTAGE ABC 2015

[Rafael_Lopez]

If that Leopard motor is a Y wound motor, it should run even better on 15* timing.

[martin]

The Leopard 5692 - 1000kv is a D wind.

[TRUCKPULL]

(( D-wind Leopard 5692 1000kv. 48mm 3 blade prop.))

If this is the setup that you ran, The heat was caused by your timing being too high.

A D-Wind motor should be 0 to 3.5 degrees. higher timing on a D-Wind only causes HEAT.

Myself - I set D-Wind's to 1 degree, only enough to stop cogging.

Larry

[IRON-PAWW]

Yep - as you guys say. Pretty certain that model Leopard is D-wind.

I've been reading that many people report good things with using the automatic timing setting on the Swordfish ESC's. But that's what made both motors hottest in this case.

The stock timing for the Dynamite motor was 7.5. So is that a Y-wind motor then?

In any case - I chose the same 8 degree setting for the Leopard as a test. It was much cooler on 8 degrees than on automatic - for both motors.

But I will try the 1 degree setting on the Leopard as you say Truckpull and see where that gets me as well. Cheers.

[IRON-PAWW]

Bad news. Chalk up another charred 300A Swordfish. Only difference this time was 2 degree timing - 1 degree wasn't an option. Suppose I should have left it if 8° was fine but ...

Not sure yet if the leopard has survived. It did get hot - but with everything that happened I didn't measure it. Does seem a little stiffer than it was to turn. Will pull it out and see what I find.

Only ran the boat about a minute with the same 48mm 3 blade as before. I was running with loud gas boats - so if there was an extra noise etc that I should have picked up..... I didn't...

ESC *was* very slow to arm. Guess that should have been my first clue.

Got one more data-logging SF300A on the shelf. May as well see if it'll go. If it dies as well - that'll be a worse than 50% failure rate for me..........

Not sure if a bad motor took out the ESC yet or just bad ESC. Suspicions lie with bad ESC atm.


####
Guys - if the leopard is toast - what motor do you think I should try? 56mm dia to fit the mountings I have. TP like I was going to??? The original motor is a 1000kv Dynamite and I have the 1000kv Leopard 5692 now which is perhaps dead. It'll go with the last 300A Swordfish I have.
####

#####
EDIT: Leopard is black toast.
#####

[IRON-PAWW]

Not much time for Zelos runs of late. But I got a few in.

About the bends in the stuffing tubes:
Originally I had a badly bent stuffing tube that got replaced under warranty. The replacement hull I received had a better bend but still not what I was seeing in people's photos. So I went ahead and tried to re-bend mine. It wasn't a completely perfect result but still not so bad. What I found was - with the properly bent stuffing tube and a hint of down angle on the strut the boat behaved noticeably better. It really used to bog down in the turns. It does still do that but nowhere as bad. It's actually hard to know if I gained speed just from this change as I changed too many other things along the way. But the boat seemed to run a *lot* smoother and appear more settled on the water after I did this.

The change from the original bend though was dramatic. Good 5mph or more.

Also - with the better curves the flex slides in *much* more smoothly now. Figure that has to count for something. : -)


Original Strut with bad bend


Replaced Hull Unmodified


Modified Curve

[IRON-PAWW]

Data results for the 4814 3 blade cnc prop.

Top speed I measured for the day was 87km/h (54mph). I've got to say that since switching to the Swordfish ESC I feel I've lost a little speed. 8° timing. Original Dynamite motor. 8S. Hull is a little heavier too with reinforcing - but not a lot.

On the original setup I had the boat well into the 90's.

The spike to 30,000 rpm is where the boat became airborne and flipped & rolled over. Lucky for that reinforcing.



RPM 4814 3 blade



Current 4814 3 blade



Throttle 4814 3 blade



Temp 4814 3 blade



Voltage 4814 3 blade

[IRON-PAWW]

The Leopard 1000kv and SF300 combo in the 2nd boat are history. Killed em somehow.

I've replaced that combo with a SF300A datalogging ESC - because I had it spare - and a TP 5670 1050kv 3Y motor. Got it all installed and bench tested. Hopefully some figures and news on that soon.

I found it interesting that the last inch or so of the TP can holds nothing - no winds etc etc or anything. Are we supposed to think the motor is beefier than it really is? Think I'll start the combo on the 4814 2 blade that the original boat came with.

[fweasel]

I found it interesting that the last inch or so of the TP can holds nothing - no winds etc etc or anything. Are we supposed to think the motor is beefier than it really is?

That's weird

[kfxguy]

Couple things for your info:

A sf300 days logging and non datalogging is no difference in speed whatsoever. Not that I've seen in my testing. My shocker went the same speed with either esc. You may have even read that in some of my threads.

Timing. I find it VERY important to run the timing at auto. If not and you run it at the timing you think the motor is supposed to be at, the motor runs hot, the escs runs hot, the wires heat up and the connectors run hot. I'd imagine you'll have issues with longevity, and judging by what I've read, you are. I've never smoked a sf300. Never. I have had one just quit on me. It was in a hard crash (98mph, dead stop in a foot or two). I did lots of bench testing when I started running these units and auto is what you want it set on no matter what motor you have. If I remember correctly my Daytona was 10+mph slower when I had the timing locked. I also ran data logs on low voltage on the bench and saw much increased freewheeling rpm when set on auto. Try it back to back and you'll see what I'm telling you is truth. You'll see lower temps too. I'm not sure what the heck is wrong with swordfish's timing settings but this is the only way I can get them to last. O and make sure the cooling hose that jumps the two cooling bats together on the escs is not kinked. I've come across a few that were.

[IRON-PAWW]

Hey Travis. I like the workshop mate! :-)

I ran the leopard combo on auto timing first up - exactly because I'd read that people had found it better that way. I ended up with a hot motor that way & hot plugs as well. When I switched to 8° timing the heat factor was a lot better. There may have been something else going on I suppose. That is the 2nd SF300 and motor combo that I've smoked, the other was in another boat on a very conservative setup. This time I made damn sure I was happy with all the soldering etc etc. I'm going to begin the TP boat very conservatively and go from there. I run my 36in Ariane on a SF300A on Auto and that's been going well for ages... Guess I'll switch the original boat over to Auto too as a test... That's on 8° too at the moment.

If you look over on KBB they have this little note against the SF300A Lite.
These ESCs now come WITHOUT a data logger. Many of us have noticed in our testing that while data loggers can be cool to use, they have an undesirable effect on the performance of the ESC. Newer data logging ESCs seem to have a lower power output ability. Part of this may be caused by the increased resistance realized from the added logger. For this reason, we had the newest models of the SF300 made without the logger. If you want a no-nonsense, simple ESC with a ton of power capability, the SF300 is perfect!

Can't really judge the comment myself but interesting nontheless. So far - the original boat is slightly slower over what it was with the Dynamite ESC. Could be other factors there it's true - I reinforced the boat since then etc etc.

Like many people now I think - the black shrink on the 300A lite's is the first thing that comes off for me. I too have found the kinked jumper hose. Plus - they just leak as well. I put on a much larger silicone hose and silicone them on as well. I put clear shrink over the ESC so I can see if it's getting water in it.


fweasel: Yeah I thought it was a little odd. The heavy cynic in me says it's a ploy to make people think they're getting a beefy motor. hard to photograph but I'll give it a go. In that pic above - the can sticking out past the rear clamp has no winds etc etc in it at all...

[IRON-PAWW]

Ok. Smartphoning this one in. I need some help & suggestions.

I ran the TP5670 1050kv with a 4814 2 blade prop on 8S. Swordfish 300A datalogging ESC.

Began on 8° timing.


I ran this combo for under 30 seconds as very preliminary test on this setup. **Lucky** because it got Very hot in that time. 120°-135°F

I let it cool down and changed the timing back to 4° as I'd read that TP recommends lower timing on their motors. I ran that for about 20 seconds. Got hot again.

Motor - Motor leads - ESC all getting hot. Batteries OK though.

Data logs show very high amp loads around 280A for these runs. RPM only around 22,000.

I didn't try the auto timing though so that will be next.

I think this motor just isn't right for this boat though. Do you guys think that's the case? Be honest and let me have it because I need to know.

[IRON-PAWW]

The TP 5670 was faulty. Verified by TP Power themselves.

A piece of insulation wasn't installed properly at the factory and was most definitely causing the heating issues. See the pic they sent me below. Thanks to Steve V for connecting me with TP, and thanks to Candy at TP for helping me out. Getting a new one hot off the press.

However - I did get a Castle 2028 800kv the other day with their price drop...

[fweasel]

It's always satisfying to get an answer like that. Have you run the castle motor yet?

[IRON-PAWW]

Yes actually. I was too intrigued with how the castle would go in this hull in the end not to try it. Pretty simple swapout. The stock motor mountings came out no problem - and OSE's mounting system for the 2028 actually fits like a charm into the Zelos 48. Because it's 800kv I think it really needs 10s, so I have a set of 4x5s LiPo's on the way. I've done a few runs on 8s with the gear I already have though. Slower of course - but with all the issues I've had I figured some conservative shakedown runs were probably a good idea. Ran with 4814 2 blade prop. Actually didn't do too bad speed wise - but slower as you'd expect.

So according to the data logs I got 26,000rpm unloaded. 22,000 - 23,000 rpm during runs. Max current only 148amps. Temps were fairly cool. So it all seems about right.

Will up to 10s next and see how it goes.

That's 2/2 faulty TP motors for me. You wouldn't frikkin read about it... But yeah .. satisfying to know I was rightfully suspecting a fault.

[Yellow]

Cant wait to see the 10S review! What speeds were you getting on 8S?

[IRON-PAWW]

I didn't load in the GPS for the 8s runs unfortunately. Would have been in the 40's (40mph) range for sure I think. With the data log figures there's definitely room to prop up on 8S for sure. Might test that in the coming weeks - but I think 10S will be the sweet spot here. if the boat pushes on too much past 55 - 60mph I think I'll have to look at the blow-over issue though. might be interesting :-)

[Yellow]

I'm confused...only in the 40's with 8s? The stock zelos 48 will do 55+ MPH on 8s. What am I missing here?

[IRON-PAWW]

Remember the Castle 2028 extreme is an 800kv motor. The stock Dynamite motor is 1000kv. So - on the same voltage the Castle will produce less rpm. I ran exactly the same prop as I did on the Dynamite on 8S as well - so it's going to be slower. It was really just a shakedown cruise - nothing more. On 10s voltage the Castle's rpm will increase and hopefully I'll be able to swing a bigger prop than the Dynamite on 8S - without going into amp meltdown. Time will tell.

With a low amp draw and low temps - I could actually prop up the Castle on 8S for faster speeds too. That could well work - I'd just need to watch the amps.

Sometimes - with the right motor and setup etc - you can increase the voltage for more rpm & run a smaller prop to get the speed you want - and end up with a more manageable amp draw. Note I said with the right setup. :-)

EDIT: Theoretical numbers.

Dynamite 1000kv (8s):
4.2v x 8s = 33.6v (your 8s voltage fully charged)
So - 33.6v x 1000kv = 33,600rpm

Castle 2028 800kv (8S):
4.2v x 8s = 33.6v
So - 33.6v x 800kv = 26,880rpm

Castle 2028 800kv (10S):
4.2v x 10s = 42.0v (your 10s voltage fully charged)
So - 42.0v x 800kv = 33,600rpm

[Yellow]

Question... On a stock zelos 48, is it ok to series two (2) 2s batteries on each side for a total of 8s, or are you allowed to only use two 4s batteries?

[IRON-PAWW]

So you want to use 4 x 2s batteries to get up to 8s voltage - by connecting them all in series. Yes you can do it. Make sure they are all the same Mah rating and C rating. If you try slotting a weaker battery into such an array you run the very real risk of damaging it.

**BUT**A little battery theory...

When you connect the same spec batteries batteries in series you double the voltage - but the mah stays the same. So - when you connect 2 x 5000mah 2s batteries in series you get 5000mah worth of 4s. If you connected 4 x 5000mah 2s batteries in series you'd get 5000mah worth of 8s.

When you connect like batteries in parallel - you double the mah - but the voltage stays the same.

My honest opinion is that a total of 5000mah is not enough for the stock Zelos 48. I think your run time will be very short. If you're going to do it - a short test (1 minute tops) and check temps etc etc. You'd really want c ratings of 60c+. When you start going into bigger hulls with smaller mah totals you *must* be careful of amp draw and run times. If you try drawing too much power from batteries that can't handle it they could puff / overheat etc etc. Bad bad bad.....

10,000mah on tap is what you really need (my opinion).

Higher mah allows the system to draw more amps, and run longer - and for people with less experience (like me) this is a better idea.


In theory - if you had
5000mah with C rating 60. 5.0 x 60 = 300. Meaning you can safely and efficiently pull 300A.


So the theory says it's possible - but practice is very often different. Especially where one company's 60c is anothers 30c.... know what I mean. With high spec and high mah 2s cells you could do it - if that's what you have. But plan on 4s packs - or even 8s packs ($$) if you're planning on getting packs just for the Zelos 48. If you've got 5000mah 2s packs then - personally I wouldn't.

[urbs00007]

Yes actually. I was too intrigued with how the castle would go in this hull in the end not to try it. Pretty simple swapout. The stock motor mountings came out no problem - and OSE's mounting system for the 2028 actually fits like a charm into the Zelos 48. Because it's 800kv I think it really needs 10s, so I have a set of 4x5s LiPo's on the way. I've done a few runs on 8s with the gear I already have though. Slower of course - but with all the issues I've had I figured some conservative shakedown runs were probably a good idea. Ran with 4814 2 blade prop. Actually didn't do too bad speed wise - but slower as you'd expect.

So according to the data logs I got 26,000rpm unloaded. 22,000 - 23,000 rpm during runs. Max current only 148amps. Temps were fairly cool. So it all seems about right.

Will up to 10s next and see how it goes.

That's 2/2 faulty TP motors for me. You wouldn't frikkin read about it... But yeah .. satisfying to know I was rightfully suspecting a fault.

i have the same setup except for 800 kv on 10s. still building should i tear down the motor?

[IRON-PAWW]

So wait.... you have an 800kv TP Motor? Or the 800kv Castle?

I'm done with TP Motors. 2 bad motors straight out of the box is enough for me. If you have a new one I'd definitely open it and check all is as it should be. Or else run it *carefully* first up to check for excessive heat.

The castle 2020 Extreme has run very well straight from the box. Still incrementing the props up at the moment. Looks good so far... Different beast to the TP stuff.