Mah resitrictions

[RandyatBBY]

The 16.9 with the P hydro was crazy.

Other than that, 5 week grand jury duty. 5-6 cases a day, all felonies all the the time! You just can't bleach some of that stuff out of your mind.

Built a few new molds. Spent a lot of time on prop development. Being Dad every day and working on the house. Normal stuff.

Any of you guys going to make it out for the Nats?

Do Not think so I was, but Hot August night in Reno is too close.

[RandyatBBY]

Randy,

Just for the sake of clarifying... NAMBA already has UNLIMITED paralleling. In other words, there are NO restrictions on Paralleling in the present NAMBA rules. Only mAh limits.

ya I knew that. I go by what the label says and do not go over this would help a lot.

[T.S.Davis]

Sooooo, nobody in NAMBA is allowed to run HV cells regardless of what they are charged to. This is according to our chairman.

No progress going forward as the next generation are not allowed.

By this thinking there can be no development in NAMBA going forward. New classes like Limited spec once was wont be part of NAMBA's future. Before there was a rule set for "limited" we ran LSH and allowed RTR power. To do so made all the boats illegal.

HV cells WILL be allowed in MI provided they are not charged past 4.23v. We just wont sanction the race. So no records. Sorry guys.

[jaike5]

Insured if disregarding rules ???, price reduction on entrance fees for non sanctioned event ?
sorry man, every ones thinking it, I'm just say'n it !!

Cheers, Jay.

[Darin Jordan]

Sooooo, nobody in NAMBA is allowed to run HV cells regardless of what they are charged to. This is according to our chairman.

Terry, I wouldn't say it's according to our Chairman.... It's the messed up rules, as they are currently written.

Let's point the blame where it belongs. I'm sure Brian doesn't like this any more than anyone else, but it's how the previous members have proposed and voted the rules in.

Let's be honest here; The rules are ALWAYS written based on the presently available technology for FE. It's nearly impossible to imagine and to predict what might come next. Even harder to write rules to consider it. Ridding the nominal voltage and going with a maximum was a start. Obviously not perfect.

We need to work together to fix this. Let's not start pointing fingers. The last thing NAMBA or IMPBA needs is for us to start another internet bickering session. This is NOT a great form of communication. People, for some reason, don't seem to take these as "Cold Beer Conversations"... I'm pretty certain that, were we all sitting at the bar or around a campfire, we'd all still walk away as friends. :)

[Darin Jordan]

Wait... I'm trying not to be involved... Oh, well hell... I guess that's blown. :)

The simplest solution would be to rework the rules to remove the mAh restrictions, much like IMBPA has, and then just police maximum voltages, for now.

The trade-off is that people would need to NOT go around bitching if someone shows up with some outside-the-box, use the rules to their benefit, thinking. Is the extra battery weight a good tradeoff for the additional voltage under load? This IS racing, after all. Someone's GOING be better at figuring that stuff out than others. Nature of that beast.

In my opinion, the higher voltage batteries are only an advantage in the LTD classes, which IMPBA doesn't even support/have-rules-for, officially, so for them it's a mute issue for them. Clearly the HV batteries WOULD be an advantage for NAMBA racers, but they aren't exclusive, so at some point, just like with Lipos, everyone has the opportunity to step up.

In the "open motor" classes, while initially costly, you CAN select a motor better suited for the available voltage, which would negate the advantages of the extra voltage in large part, especially when capacity isn't an issue.

The bottom line for me is the following: WHAT CAN BE ENFORCED, Practically speaking??

We can't enforce, with any level of practicality, the existing rules. Mock them if you will, but that's how it is. They were put in place in good faith, but as we have become more sophisticated, perhaps we need to rethink them?

[rayzerdesigns]

Darin the higher voltage batteries are without a doubt an advantage in limited..I just tested a set in my lsh last week out of my touring car.. Which by the way aren't roar legal as of yet.. First set of my normal pack I run charged to 4.23 per cell 56.1 mph.. Now stepping up to reedy hv cells charged to only 4.5 per cell saw a max of 58.2 mph.. That is significant..like you said not sure they will help much in anything but the limited classes.. But the technology is there..now back to subject of mah restrictions.. I can go either way..since nambas offshore is 4 minutes I think it's fun trying to get the most out of limited mah.. But I also think it would be cool to not have the restriction to go faster.. Lol..

[Darin Jordan]

I can go either way..since nambas offshore is 4 minutes I think it's fun trying to get the most out of limited mah.. But I also think it would be cool to not have the restriction to go faster.. Lol..

Yes, all good points. I don't think I'm in disagreement with you on the HV batteries. Clearly an advantage in LTD classes.

So, to be more clear on my point regarding mAh restrictions, I would clearly be in favor of some limits. My issue is HOW DO YOU TECH THEM?? That's the rub.

Maybe that's the question that we need to focus on answering? Personally, I don't see a decent way to do it. Weight seems the most practical, but also has some issues.

Frankly, anytime you put ANY words in a rulebook, you're going to have issues, however. General rule: Don't write it down if you can't enforce it. :)

[T.S.Davis]

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. The choice to buy HV cells is the racers to make, not being able to use the full marked capacity as well as how those cells fit within class specs should be considered when making that purchase decision.

Sorry, I'm out of line. Brian didn't write the rules.

The rules don't allow any HV's period. 3.7v nominal only. Always. Every time. Letter of the law. End of discussion.
Don't run more than 10k worth of labels 6s and below. Ever. Letter of the law. End of discussion.

I think I'm going to peel the labels off everything I own regardless of their capacity and make someone figure out what I'm running. 2200's, 3750's, 4000's, ,4500's, 5000's. My 5.8k and 6k's only run in T. Throw on some fresh shrink and no labels. All legal but I want someone to prove me wrong.

The tech is evolving again. There are no provisions for us to phase it in. HV will be illegal one day and legal the very next day. We can't write the rules to anticipate every future change but if there is a way to phase something in without flushing existing gear or giving a distinct advantage to the new tech we should do it. Call it a band-aide.

If we're going to stick to the letters of the law there is no way for us to transition to the new technology. Used to be we would run a proposal for a year for proof of concept but since that's not legal to do we'll have to just go from HV illegal to HV legal over night.

I'll start penciling the proposal to allow both HV and open capacity. Many will be replace all of their power now or all of it later so there's no real reason to wait. Just timing. Might as well flip the switch sooner than later.

[Darin Jordan]

I'll start penciling the proposal to allow both HV and open capacity. Many will be replace all of their power now or all of it later so there's no real reason to wait. Just timing. Might as well flip the switch sooner than later.

I'll stand behind you on this... way, WAY, behind you!! :)

And, in all seriousness.... if you want this to be legit racing, yes, you build and race to the letter of the rules. Otherwise, were just spending a lot of time and money on "fun-runs"...

[T.S.Davis]

If we have unenforceable rules that we've never tech'd then hasn't it all been fun running?

Anybody tech'd a limited motor on site? Looked at the can and called it good didn't ya?

[Darin Jordan]

If we have unenforceable rules that we've never tech'd then hasn't it all been fun running?

Anybody tech'd a limited motor on site? Looked at the can and called it good didn't ya?

Terry,

Perhaps part of my point. Maybe that's why IMPBA doesn't HAVE P-LTD??

And, YES, to the very best of our abilities, we've "tech'd" P-LTD motors. Much like ROAR, they/we Spec a list of legal motors, all of which can/will be visually inspected. If something is in deeper question, they get further scrutiny.

Much like batteries, however, a good chunk of this it taken on faith.

You can only do the best you can do under the current set of rules. That's what we've been doing.

Now, tech has changed, and also people are wanting a more definitive answer to mAh limitations.

Let's discuss that. Not sure why anger and beating each other up has to come into play. Pragmatism and reason should prevail.

[T.S.Davis]

My point is that we're suggesting a hard line on the "rules" even though historically we haven't taken that hard line.

No HV even if kept with legal limits. No mah in excess of the letter of the law (on the labels of course) even if (in theory) they are kept within legal limits. Failure to comply with this is just fun running.

We're not hard lining the rules right now. Not where power is concerned. We can't and we haven't. Because it's not possible/practical.

The letter of the law says 10000mah under Q. I tell my charger to shut off at 4.2v. I don't know for sure how many mah I'm carrying. I bought 10k but I don't really know anything. Nowhere in the letter of the law does it say anything about the labels on my packs. Says I can carry 10k. Am I? Don't know. It is however my job as a racer to know. Brian mentioned that. My responsibility. I don't however have the ability or the equipment to verify that I'm legal.

I guess I want some reasonable/practical application of a rule set that we all understand has problems. The power was a compromise form the start because we couldn't move forward at the time. Needs an update. Pretty sure we're all thinking that way.

What I don't want is anyone fearing that they will be not allowed to race at an event because we're hard line enforcing a rule that has never ever been verified before. A pair of 5200 HV's charged to just 4.2 volts should not be a problem for any venue. That guy is carrying the correct voltage and is under on mah.....in theory of course.

[Doug Smock]

Yes the issues with teching is why the IMPBA hasn't officially adopted the Limited classes. I imagine that's why they don't have capacity limits as well.

Guys we are all very passionate about our hobby but we MUST keep this discussion on the surface.

I posted that link to the red board as a reminder of where we don't want to go.

I don't have an answer for capacity limits. Sorry we're in this situation..........

D.

[T.S.Davis]

For the record. I am not yelling at Darin in any way. I'm not typing from the floor so I can kick my feet either.

Doug, I'm looking forward to coming down to your fun run in a few weeks.

[Darin Jordan]

For the record. I am not yelling at Darin in any way. I'm not typing from the floor so I can kick my feet either.

Honestly, I'd say that the only time these rules REALLY apply would be at a National event. Clubs can/will do whatever they want. That's how the "year worth of trial run" happens.

Hard line on the rules... Yes... at some point, you need to do that. Then, when you realize how broken they really are, you argue online for 6-months.... Right??

It's clearly that time... time for a review and rewrite in order to adapt. But, just like P-LTD motors... just because there is a new mouse-trap available, doesn't mean it should be included at a National event... not yet, I wouldn't think.

[rayzerdesigns]

Honestly, I'd say that the only time these rules REALLY apply would be at a National event. Clubs can/will do whatever they want. That's how the "year worth of trial run" happens.

Hard line on the rules... Yes... at some point, you need to do that. Then, when you realize how broken they really are, you argue online for 6-months.... Right??

It's clearly that time... time for a review and rewrite in order to adapt. But, just like P-LTD motors... just because there is a new mouse-trap available, doesn't mean it should be included at a National event... not yet, I wouldn't think.

I do like how it has to be written then submitted and voted on for a rule change.. I think it makes the Nationals or s big event that wants to follow nambas rules.. Say we allow hv cells now.. Well that would leave a lot of people scrambling to get cells for nationals just a few months away..terry write the proposal and submit it.. Then we can start the new year off with new stuff..I will tell you that rosr has had the hv cells for a while testing them.. For well over 6 months and haven't approved them.. Which seems interesting.. I will also tell u u won't just throw an hv cell or cells straight into ur current p limited setup.. U will burn some stuff up.. U are adding rpms and heat.. I have tested with them.. But I am also all for them.. But until it's written up and submitted and voted on.. We have what we have.. They wouldn't be voted on till years end and legal if passed till next year..

[raptor347]

I did quite a bit of reading last night and a couple phone calls this morning. Here's what we ended up with:
-3.7V nominal, 4.23V max and capacity are part of the racing rules, not the safety rules.
-You can sanction a race using HV cells, it should be stated on the race flier that these cells will be allowed and no records can be set.
-You need to define the maximum pack voltages and capacity limits (if any) for the classes being run.
-Make sure racers running standard cells aren't unsafely overcharging their cells to try to compete.

You can legally run HV cells at the local level, no problem. Someone should be running them for a baseline if nothing else.

The only events where the racing rules are truly set in stone are:
-Any sanctioned event resulting in record applications
-Nationals
-Time trials.

The safety rules are set in stone and everyone should take the time to reread them at the start of each season.

Terry, you're covered. The Cup will be a great race, wish I had time and cash to make it back. The records thing is what it is. Think of the paperwork you won't have to do.

With regard to P-ltd. IMPBA did it right. In all seriousness, I completely agree we made a mistake. It should never have been made a national class and definitely not a record legal class. The motors are inconsistent, even if we tore them down to the windings we wouldn't get reasonable spec ranges from different batches. I think we should get rid of that power catagory because it's truly un-techable. Please write the proposal and I'll happily back it.

If anyone wants to talk to me directly, my phone number is in the contacts list on the NAMBA web site. I'm going to go splash some glue around the shop.

[T.S.Davis]

We screwed the pooch on this when we added the charge voltages. Should have ditched the nominal wording then.

Just what if'n.....

Drop the mah restriction completely
Lose the "3.7v nominal" wording

This creates the transition phase that IMPBA is already into.

Then specify a date after which we up the maximum charged voltage.

[raptor347]

Guys we are all very passionate about our hobby but we MUST keep this discussion on the surface.

Thinking about your PM last night. Not feeling the love.

[T.S.Davis]

Great stuff Brian. Thanks for the effort man. Really. Most of what you typed confirms what I thought I knew.

Limited spec is an awesome set of classes and has been a boon to our hobby but being subject to the supply chain has been challenging. From manufacturing hiccups to manufacturer discontinuing entire motor lines. It's been endless. Guys have left FE over those cheap motors. But this was true of 700 motors too though. There was always controversy. I still would encourage clubs to run as close to the original spec as possible just for parity and participation. They're still the most contested classes at most major events.

[T.S.Davis]

-Make sure racers running standard cells aren't unsafely overcharging their cells to try to compete.

Did this at the last cup. The highest voltage I found was a cheap O' Zippy pack. 4.21v. I was cruising the pits with the meter all weekend.

I can't remember for sure but I don't think anyone applied for a record last cup.

[Darin Jordan]

Should have ditched the nominal wording then.

Some of us TRIED!! Fears (that some might regard as irrational.. ) of future battery technologies caused the majority to feel those needed to be there.

How ironic...

[Darin Jordan]

Would it be valid to say that P-LTD could be run at the Nationals, but wouldn't be eligible for records or even official "National Championships"??

The class DOES bring a lot of blood to the events.

That being said, one of my previous rule thoughts on P-LTD motors would eliminate this problem, but would require people to get out of the RTR motor mentality, and adopt more of a "standardized motor parameter" through process. I suppose a list could still be provided. Much like ROAR.

Thoughts for another thread.

Sorry, not trying to "dominate the discussion". Just working a support session here today at work that doesn't need much support.

[T.S.Davis]

Would it be valid to say that P-LTD could be run at the Nationals, but wouldn't be eligible for records or even official "National Championships"??

Some complained that the mere participation numbers made an FE nats not a nats at all so I guess in keeping with tradition we call them interstellar championships.

I don't want to lose it either. It's our top seller so to speak.

The battery thing is going to require a crystal ball I think.

[raptor347]

I'm not saying stop running it. P-ltd is a great class. It's helped the hobby. It should still run at big races and as an exhibition class at nationals. Because of the tech issues, it shouldn't be an official/set in stone class or qualify for records.

Let's face it, stock/spec classes have a finite life span. When supplies of the critical component dry up, you find the next stock/spec class to fill the void.

[raptor347]

The battery thing is going to require a crystal ball I think.

That particular cat is going to get continuously harder to herd.

[Doug Smock]

Brian, we're good, just saw a little red my friend.

Good work, and thank you for your time, effort!

Guys FWIW I would stick with 4.23v/cell max. at races where HV packs are allowed. If not there will be guys kicking and screaming, and rightly so. We know there are gains to be had at the higher voltage, we don't need to prove that at a race such as The Michigan Cup.
Testing at the higher voltage can be done at the local level at fun runs. When the time comes to pull the trigger on the HV cells we'll have plenty of experience to draw from.

Again just my.02 FWIW

[raptor347]

Guys FWIW I would stick with 4.23v/cell max. at races where HV packs are allowed. If not there will be guys kicking and screaming, and rightly so. We know there are gains to be had at the higher voltage, we don't need to prove that at a race such as The Michigan Cup.
Testing at the higher voltage can be done at the local level at fun runs. When the time comes to pull the trigger on the HV cells we'll have plenty of experience to draw from.

All good.

I agree on the voltage for MI, but that's in Terry's court.

[T.S.Davis]

We'll stay with the max charge in the book but we're not getting hung up on the nominal thing. I want to allow them but not by letting them spank all the 4.2v guys.