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Thread: Mah resitrictions

  1. #31
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    Yeah that's interesting Larry. I've been told this for years but it's not really true. You have to stick to the safety rules. The book says that failure to comply with the safety rules may result in a loss of coverage. Paraphrasing. No where does the book say "You must comply with every letter of this document or you will not be insured". I've been told repeatedly "Well, they expect us to follow our own rules". Expect? Good luck with that in court. If it's not on paper it didn't happen. Ever see cats and monos sprint together? Guess were uninsured at that point. Nonsense.

    Cell counts and battery specs aren't in the safety rules. If the insurance company wanted to jam that "you weren't following the rules" thing down our throats then no event that I'm aware of since lipo was introduced would have been covered because no event that I'm aware of has ever truly tech'd the mah's. You could read the label but who knows what's under the label if you don't do a full discharge and then a subsequent recharge. Then do you discharge down to 0% before a refill to absolutely sure? If we were getting all lawyer'y, "Where's the documentation proving that you checked it?"

    Checking them with absolute certainty should only take an entire day for tech for each day of racing. The only thing I check is voltage. I don't think anyone escaped scrutiny at the Cup last summer. If I missed someone I apologize. I'll be sure to check all of your crap this year. We've relied entirely on good faith since introduction of Lipo.

    The whole restriction thing was an attempt to appease those that were convinced Lipo would spell the end of racing. Same response that brushless motors received. "RACING IS RUINED! WE'RE JUST RACING WALLETS NOW! THAT'S IT! I'M OUT!"

    Still not sure how to address the twins thing. Larry's 6s3p twin Q cat scenario is pretty realistic and would likely come in under weight. Not sure it would be drive able but it is possible. We're planning to test a 20k single Q cat for Atlanta. See if that works. Weight is under easy.

    John, I'm not sure it matters what the CD states on the flier. If a guy shows up with cells that don't have labels at all........ how does the CD know anything more than the voltage? Hmmmmm, those look like 5600 2p to me. The sketchy part would be the legitimacy of the results. For instance, one could argue that a national championship awarded to a racer whose cells were not dumped and recharged to verify compliance with the MAH restrictions is not legit. Ridiculous but you could make the argument.

    Every record run is tech'd for compliance with the rules.......accept the mah restrictions because to do so is a nightmare. I've signed some record applications. I've not checked the mah. Only voltage. I doubt that the SAW guys are doing a complete discharge and recharge.
    Noisy person

  2. #32
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    The only reason I brought up the CD/Flyer thing was if someone who had some 6000 packs and they wanted to run in 2P
    they could (like P-Mono/Cat) without having to buy new packs....

  3. #33
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    I think I'm going to re-label all my packs as 4S Flux Capacitors.

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    Didn't the mah limit restrict the size of prop you could spin in off shore and the roundy round? now more mah means bigger wheel, go faster and so on. next will it be length and weigh restrictions changed to hold more batteries . now safety really becomes an issue. instead of an 18lb T- boat doing 65mph in the roundy round, now you may have 30lb boat doing 75plus mph.... and the wakes would be massive with 4-6 T-boats, yikes !! just my .02, race on

    Cheers, Jay.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Every record run is tech'd for compliance with the rules.......accept the mah restrictions because to do so is a nightmare. I've signed some record applications. I've not checked the mah. Only voltage. I doubt that the SAW guys are doing a complete discharge and recharge.
    are the 2 lap and SAW runs held to the 10,000mah limit in P and Q classes ?
    or are they allowed to run more ?
    thanks
    Jesus is King .......NAMBA20...Caterpillar UL-1, P-Spec OM29, P-Mono DF33, P-Spec JAE, Aussie 33" Hydro-LSH, Sprintcat CC2028 on 8s, PT SS45 Q Hydro, PS295 UL-1 power, OSE Brothers Outlaw QMono 4-sale, Rio 51z CC2028 on 8s

  6. #36
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    Supposed to be. I don't think the SAW guys typically carry the max.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    The only reason I brought up the CD/Flyer thing was if someone who had some 6000 packs and they wanted to run in 2P
    they could (like P-Mono/Cat) without having to buy new packs....
    John
    If they had two 2S - 6,000mAmp packs, there is NO problem running them in series, you end up with a 4S1P - 6,000mAmp pack.
    This is still under the MAX limit of 10,000mAmp's on board.

    If you had two 4S- 6,000mAmp packs, and connect them parallel, you end up with a 4S2P - 12,000mAmp pack - NO -over the MAX -10,000mAMP on board.

    If you want to go this way- I could sell a my Offshore Motors, and 5,000mAmp batteries and buy all 6,600mAmp packs, then I could just run my oval setups in Offshore.
    This way also my oval setups will run faster seeing that the output voltage under load would be higher with the higher capacity packs.

    Larry
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  8. #38
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    "I don't think anyone escaped scrutiny at the Cup last summer".

    I know Don and I were checked frequently. We were starting to get a complex. lol I think the T mono was checked before every heat.

    Edit: It was as it should be, I'm not complaining!
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  9. #39
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    I know Doug. I knew what you were running. I didn't want to hear any BS later about Smock this or Smock that. I'm sure you already know this but I wasn't trying to catch a single person cheating. I was preventing others from making accusations later. It wouldn't have come from anyone at our race. It would have come from people NOT at our race. The usual sources.

    I checked Einstein and PAGS about 86 times. Fireball got a bunch of visits too. I tried to accost everyone at some point. Probably skipped the kids boats.
    Noisy person

  10. #40
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    Oh yeah I "get it" Terry. Not to catch someone cheating, it's to prove they're not. I appreciate you being on the front end of it!
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  11. #41
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    Doug

    Terry, Fred & the MI gang run one of, if not the best and fairest races in North America.

    Larry
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCKPULL View Post
    John
    If they had two 2S - 6,000mAmp packs, there is NO problem running them in series, you end up with a 4S1P - 6,000mAmp pack.
    This is still under the MAX limit of 10,000mAmp's on board.

    If you had two 4S- 6,000mAmp packs, and connect them parallel, you end up with a 4S2P - 12,000mAmp pack - NO -over the MAX -10,000mAMP on board.


    Larry
    Thanks Larry, but I've been doing math for a few years now and already had that figured out...

    I'm just saying that if some newby, like a Smock or Don H are entering their first race with their P Mono and want to join in on the craziness with their 2, 4S 6000mah packs to run in parallel, could they still be allowed to run if the race waiver allows a bit extra capacity? I'd hate to think some folks would be turned away for a few extra mah. Unless of course its for a formal record of some sort.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCKPULL View Post
    Doug

    Terry, Fred & the MI gang run one of, if not the best and fairest races in North America.

    Larry
    The're a bunch of bums...Terry needs a calculator to figure out a 4s packs voltage.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I know Doug. I knew what you were running. I didn't want to hear any BS later about Smock this or Smock that. I'm sure you already know this but I wasn't trying to catch a single person cheating. I was preventing others from making accusations later. It wouldn't have come from anyone at our race. It would have come from people NOT at our race. The usual sources.

    I checked Einstein and PAGS about 86 times. Fireball got a bunch of visits too. I tried to accost everyone at some point. Probably skipped the kids boats.
    Checking Kanadians packs voltages is a waste of time, we're the most honest people on the planet. Southerners though...well that's a whole different ball game....they've always got a extra cell up their sleeves.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    I'm just saying that if some newby, like a Smock or Don H are entering their first race with their P Mono and want to join in on the craziness with their 2, 4S 6000mah packs to run in parallel, could they still be allowed to run if the race waiver allows a bit extra capacity? I'd hate to think some folks would be turned away for a few extra mah. Unless of course its for a formal record of some sort.
    John

    If it is club race - No Problem

    If it is a NAT's or MI Cup size race - NO WAY

    To allow one person the extra capacity is a big advantage to that person.
    Higher capacity cells give higher voltage under load.

    To put it in the race flier, means that everyone else has to buy new packs to compete.
    It is easer for that one person to borrow or buy legal packs for the race.

    Larry
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  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    I'd hate to think some folks would be turned away for a few extra mah.
    That may happen this year. My old 5000s are letting go and are being replaced with 5200s.

    Out of curiosity, what's the procedure for batteries that have had the original labels / heat shrink removed?
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  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post

    Out of curiosity, what's the procedure for batteries that have had the original labels / heat shrink removed?
    Personal integrity.

    Of course anyone who thinks a couple of hundred extra Mah capacity is going to win them a race is delusional.

    Perhaps the rules need to updated to state that only factory labeled packs can be used.

    I have both 5800Mah , 4200Mah and 5000Mah packs that could be used on 2P setups...oh the horror...there's a possibility of over 10000mah capacity. I also have some HV packs (but no HV chargers) EEEKKKKK!!!!!!!!. Guess Terry's going to be busier than a one armed wall-paper hanger at Michigan this year....checking voltages, capacities, labels, underwear color, etc.....

    Just another reason NAMBA and IMPBA needs to have a group hug and get their collective *!***!***!***!**z together on a standard set of rules for FE.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    Checking Kanadians packs voltages is a waste of time, we're the most honest people on the planet. Southerners though...well that's a whole different ball game....they've always got a extra cell up their sleeves.
    How is Canadian voltage checked? Is that USA Voltage or Canadian Voltage? I get so confused with the metric system.

  19. #49
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    lol Howard.
    Doby, my Kanadian friend. I understand integrity.
    But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm? Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.
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  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    lol Howard.
    Doby, my Kanadian friend. I understand integrity.
    But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm? Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.
    I agree, this is a good question ....
    Jesus is King .......NAMBA20...Caterpillar UL-1, P-Spec OM29, P-Mono DF33, P-Spec JAE, Aussie 33" Hydro-LSH, Sprintcat CC2028 on 8s, PT SS45 Q Hydro, PS295 UL-1 power, OSE Brothers Outlaw QMono 4-sale, Rio 51z CC2028 on 8s

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm? Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.
    Doug

    If you have to re-shrink your packs-- Use clear shrink
    Even the packs from China have electro printing on every individual cell, stating the capacity.
    This now can be read through the clear shrink.

    Larry
    Last edited by TRUCKPULL; 03-19-2016 at 03:22 PM.
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  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    lol Howard.
    Doby, my Kanadian friend. I understand integrity.
    But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm? Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.

    Back to that integrity thing.......

    Screw it...easier to switch to gas/nitro.

  23. #53
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    It was a hypothetical question Larry. But perhaps it should be addresses before it becomes a problem for some poor guy that has traveled 12 hrs. to a race.

    FWIW the GP and Revo packs I tossed last year had no data on the cells unless it was turned in.
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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    . But perhaps it should be addresses before it becomes a problem for some poor guy that has traveled 12 hrs. to a race.

    .
    That's exactly what I was getting at.

    Is he going to be turned away for the sake of a few Mah?

    To more or less quote some schmuck that's on here quite a bit..."they're only toy boats fellas"

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    That's exactly what I was getting at.

    Is he going to be turned away for the sake of a few Mah?

    To more or less quote some schmuck that's on here quite a bit..."they're only toy boats fellas"


    That's not an exact quote, but close enough. lol
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  26. #56
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    Haha. You guys realize that this was the exact motivation for me having asked the question?

    Some NAMBAnians are actually racing at Legg this weekend. Maybe we'll get some more thoughts after.

    Let's not get bogged down with how the rule IS and focus on the truth. The truth is that there is no reason for them to be different. That's the collective hug John was talking about. Like I said, I race both orgs.

    Maybe I'll just write a proposal. On paper I'm D2 director again with Fred retiring.

    Nobody has sited a reason the limit should still be there. We just need some smarter way to deal with twins. That could get out of hand pretty quick.
    Noisy person

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post

    Some NAMBAnians are actually racing at Legg this weekend. Maybe we'll get some more thoughts after.
    Yes and I noticed some of those paper label packs in one of the boats. I sure hope for records sake that they could still read the capacity on them.
    I'm confident that the issue is in good hands.
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  28. #58
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    Thumbs up

    ........
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  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    That's exactly what I was getting at.

    Is he going to be turned away for the sake of a few Mah?

    To more or less quote some schmuck that's on here quite a bit..."they're only toy boats fellas"
    exactly.. I have several 5100mah and 5500mah 4s packs
    Jesus is King .......NAMBA20...Caterpillar UL-1, P-Spec OM29, P-Mono DF33, P-Spec JAE, Aussie 33" Hydro-LSH, Sprintcat CC2028 on 8s, PT SS45 Q Hydro, PS295 UL-1 power, OSE Brothers Outlaw QMono 4-sale, Rio 51z CC2028 on 8s

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Haha. You guys realize that this was the exact motivation for me having asked the question?

    Some NAMBAnians are actually racing at Legg this weekend. Maybe we'll get some more thoughts after.

    Let's not get bogged down with how the rule IS and focus on the truth. The truth is that there is no reason for them to be different. That's the collective hug John was talking about. Like I said, I race both orgs.

    Maybe I'll just write a proposal. On paper I'm D2 director again with Fred retiring.

    Nobody has sited a reason the limit should still be there. We just need some smarter way to deal with twins. That could get out of hand pretty quick.
    Terry

    What about the HV Cells they are way above 3.70V nominal.

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
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