Largest Motor/ESC Combo In JAE Mini Sprint

[SweetAccord]

No, YGE were very upset that their property was stolen, but they are a small company and international lawsuits both very expensive and unlikely to result in a Chinese patent impeacher actually desisting manufacture of the stolen product. They would rather spend their money on R&D, making their next generation better, keeping their technology above the cloners and giving their customers a better product.

It is however quite easy to get a fake product removed from sale in most countries, so they don't use the original name or logo. They use a similar name and colour scheme to give the impression of the original product, while not technically passing off as the original.

It's easier to copy these days, change one thing and make it their own. Chinese are experts at copying and reselling even products from their own country and competitors. They copy and make it cheaper than the original, and make a profit and 90% of the time it's the same quality or better sometimes, and who benefits? We do. It is the right thing to do? Most consumers don't care, some do. You know how it works, all they have to do is change one little thing and they can market it, which if you look at both ESC the caps are different, everything else looks identical. It's the way of the world now.

[NativePaul]

We benefit in one way, that we get a cheaper product now.

If lots of people buy the cheaper clone, the company that put money into R&D cant recoup that investment and afford to do more R&D, eventually they will go out of business, we lose because it stagnates the technology. Not only do those that buy the clones get older technology, but it slows down the advance of technology that is out there to be cloned.

[Dashunde]

Well, I ordered a Flycolor 70a too.. we'll see if its a better fit, hopefully its only ~17mm thick.
I should have just ordered the FE21.. probably would have been cheaper overall

The YGE copy thing is kind of interesting in that they're apparently "made in Germany", but to what extent and using parts from where?
YGE does not appear to be a very big outfit, at least from a product selection and minimal website perspective.. In reality their "property" and R&D may only amount to firmware?
For comparison, Castle receives boards from elsewhere then they pick-n-place everything in Olathe KS
An interesting read on Castle.

[SweetAccord]

Well, I ordered a Flycolor 70a too.. we'll see if its a better fit, hopefully its only ~17mm thick.
I should have just ordered the FE21.. probably would have been cheaper overall

The YGE copy thing is kind of interesting in that they're apparently "made in Germany", but to what extent and using parts from where?
YGE does not appear to be a very big outfit, at least from a product selection and minimal website perspective.. In reality their "property" and R&D may only amount to firmware?
For comparison, Castle receives boards from elsewhere then they pick-n-place everything in Olathe KS
An interesting read on Castle.

I have the Flycolor 90A. Be careful on what program box you get. There are two kinds, one says Flycolor on the bottom and one says Flycolor on the top. I am still working out trying to figure out which goes to what as Flycolor does not clarify on their website. I can confirm the one that says Flycolor at the top does not work with the 90A ESC. This one: http://www.flycolor.net/Upload/produ...0153320639.jpg

I ordered the box that says Flycolor at the bottom/middle which is what is on their site also and will see if that works. I am also told the one from OSE may work as the Raider ESC is actually a Flycolor rebranded.

[Dashunde]

Sweetaccord, I ordered the 70a... have no idea which box would work with it?

So I went to build and found all of my ca dried up - had a baby girl in 2012 and haven't built squat since and didnt check it ahead of time :/

While I'm waiting on a fresh batch of Mercury adhesives I've been looking it over, prepping parts, etc and I keep coming around to the same question...
Why is everyone reinforcing some variation of the stock plywood mount when the rudder in the kit comes with a "L" mount already?
The "L" mount is about .25" longer, but can easily be cut back and re-drilled for the same length as the original wood (leave the wood in place as a template, then cut it off later).
Is the weight a big deal? Seems that the required reinforcing adds a fair amount of weight anyway?

I'm thinking I'll just cut the L mount back a bit to keep the original length, drill a couple holes in it to reduce weight, and double-ply the transom with thin sheet cf.
Is there some aspect I'm not seeing yet that makes all of that a no-go rudder mounting method?

[NativePaul]

Mine took a buoy strike to break it and a small diagonal reinforcement glued in held up even when it was all held together with glue. If I was to build another I would use lighter wood all round and add the diagonal from the start.

[bob horowitz]

Don't see any reason why it won't work. After tearing out one of the holes on mine, I put in a piece of triangle stock and a thin plate of CF along the side of the tub. By the way, I don't know if you are just going to tack it together with CA and then epoxy it, but I would recommend going over all the joints with epoxy. This little thing is fast for it's size, and puts some serious loads on itself.
Bob

[Dashunde]

Ok, L bracket it is then..
One main concern I have is if it hits something the brass screw will fail to sheer, instead ripping the hole out of the wood, that or just fumbling it during transport.

Bob, it'll depend on the part.. if it can be clamped in place, or is pure structure, I'll use epoxy. But superficial or ornery parts will get ca'd or a combination of both... a light/stingy epoxy application with a couple small spots left dry for a dab of ca/kicker to hold it while the epoxy dries. And I'll go over all of the joints with epoxy again followed up by finishing resin. I dont under-build anything, but I wont make big puddles in the corners either.
Building several planes has taught me the most important thing for a good bond is to lightly scuff away the laser-burnt edges.. nothing bonds well to charcoal.

[bob horowitz]

Sounds like a plan. Keep us posted.
Bob

[SweetAccord]

Sweetaccord, I ordered the 70a... have no idea which box would work with it?

So I went to build and found all of my ca dried up - had a baby girl in 2012 and haven't built squat since and didnt check it ahead of time :/

While I'm waiting on a fresh batch of Mercury adhesives I've been looking it over, prepping parts, etc and I keep coming around to the same question...
Why is everyone reinforcing some variation of the stock plywood mount when the rudder in the kit comes with a "L" mount already?
The "L" mount is about .25" longer, but can easily be cut back and re-drilled for the same length as the original wood (leave the wood in place as a template, then cut it off later).
Is the weight a big deal? Seems that the required reinforcing adds a fair amount of weight anyway?

I'm thinking I'll just cut the L mount back a bit to keep the original length, drill a couple holes in it to reduce weight, and double-ply the transom with thin sheet cf.
Is there some aspect I'm not seeing yet that makes all of that a no-go rudder mounting method?

You want the box that says Flycolor in the middle, not the top if you purchased the new version that is square looking and flat. The old ones are the long, elongated looking ESC's, they use the program box that says Flycolor at the top. Post a pic of which ESC you got and I'll tell you if the box you are looking at to get is right or wrong. I just was contacted by Flycolor and got it all resolved, but I figured it out before they contacted me. They actually have good support.

[SweetAccord]

Ok, L bracket it is then..
One main concern I have is if it hits something the brass screw will fail to sheer, instead ripping the hole out of the wood, that or just fumbling it during transport.

Bob, it'll depend on the part.. if it can be clamped in place, or is pure structure, I'll use epoxy. But superficial or ornery parts will get ca'd or a combination of both... a light/stingy epoxy application with a couple small spots left dry for a dab of ca/kicker to hold it while the epoxy dries. And I'll go over all of the joints with epoxy again followed up by finishing resin. I dont under-build anything, but I wont make big puddles in the corners either.
Building several planes has taught me the most important thing for a good bond is to lightly scuff away the laser-burnt edges.. nothing bonds well to charcoal.

Sand off the dark areas, put in position, tack with superglue and then epoxy and sand off any excess is how to make it clean and light and strong. I coated everything inside and out on the first one I built and it's a pig heavy. I did a second one and it's half the weight and I left the inside bare wood, I only coated the outside and the inside edges lightly epoxy to keep it water tight, strong and light. No matter how you think these should be built, in a crash they will break at the speeds they can do regardless if you build them on way or the other. The OEM setup may fair better in a light crash, but at full speed it won't. So I decided to build light.

[Dashunde]

Do you thin the epoxy to get it to flow or wick better into the narrow gaps left after the part is ca'd into place?

This thing will bust up in a run-of-the-mill wipeout? I thought t was mostly the booms?
I wonder... I have some 1/16 and 3/32 carbon fiber sheet here... and a nice set of new plywood "templates".

[bob horowitz]

I hit a dock with mine, it only broke the booms. It is built with epoxy though.

[SweetAccord]

Do you thin the epoxy to get it to flow or wick better into the narrow gaps left after the part is ca'd into place?

This thing will bust up in a run-of-the-mill wipeout? I thought t was mostly the booms?
I wonder... I have some 1/16 and 3/32 carbon fiber sheet here... and a nice set of new plywood "templates".

Sorry didn't mean to scare you. It won't burt in a wipe out that I can imagine. I was only referring to if you hit something full or somewhat partial throttle. Like Bob said above, he broke his booms. I was not even going full speed and broke mine once and since repaired nicely. That is one reason I like the JAE it's super easy to repair and make look like new again with little effort. Don't make it any thicker, follow the OEM design, just don't go crazy with the epoxy or resin sealer as it adds weight quickly as there is nothing else you can do to make the kit light as all else is already bare minimum by design. Once you build it and run it you will see it's pretty solid and strong, but when you are going 30 MPH or more it don't take much to smash depending on what you hit.

Yes, I CA'd in place and then added epoxy over the area and sanded off any hangs. The CA holds very well buy itself amazingly. I glued some seams (as a test) with CA with some left overs from the kit and when I broke the pieces, where it broke was around the area the CA was, not where the CA was. So that it good, but don't build it just with CA, just use to hold the pieces in place, and then lightly coat over the area with epoxy for full strength and then sand off any excess, as excess (thickness in height) does not help in any way if there is already a thin coating of epoxy between the seams. The epoxy gets into the wood pores and with a thin layer it's very strong but can still crack being a thin layer. It's a hit 22 type build.

Hope that helps.

[SweetAccord]

Ok I confirmed the Flycolor program box that works with the 90A ESC. It should also work with the other lower amp versions. Settings are 1-5 only.



These are the same settings as the OSE Raider and it's the same box: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The manual on OSE's site is a bad copy. Attached is a better clearer version.

Hope that helps.

[SweetAccord]

Manual attached:

[SweetAccord]

Last page

I have also put this info in my album: https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...p?albumid=1389

[SweetAccord]

Kits like these are hard to beat for the price: https://www.amazon.com/Shrimp-Wooden...ds=rc+boat+esc

[NativePaul]

Hi Rob, I hope you don't mind me posting the reply to your questions here (as there is nothing personal), I tried to PM you with it but went way over the 5000 character limit and got denied.

IMO a 2845 is bigger than needed, someone asked what was the biggest that will fit and I said 2845, people seem to have taken that as a recommendation, but my own had a 28x36 Mega 16/15/x and I feel that is plenty.

The 4420 would be silly fast for you on 3s and a good speed on 2s, I raced with a similar KV on 2s spinning an X427which gave me 5 minutes runtime using 2200mAh at about 30mph at that speed throttle control is only needed in rough conditions so it is a good platform for newbies. Swapping to 3s on the same setup results in a much higher speed, and if you don't care about runtime you can prop up a little to get better acceleration too, best acceleration came from a detongued X435, best speed from a P735, my favourite prop was an detongued X632 for a good blend of both speed and acceleration. The small hull cant cope with the higher speeds unless it is calm so reading the water and throttle control will be important for it to finish the right way up, it is very fun to run on the ragged edge of the hull's limits, and much cheaper to do that with a mini than a bigger boat, but make sure you have a means of rescue with you if pushing a non selfrighting mini above 30mph.

The motor mount I used is a stock zippkits one, I think it is great and wish the other JAEs came with one similar instead of the overweight PITA the .21 comes with.

I don't like the Leopard water jackets and hate the HRC ones, I recommend the Chinese Lehner-esque ones like this which cool just as well but are smaller in diameter so will fit in tighter spaces, half the weight of the Leopard jacket, and are cheaper.

I don't have a seaking60 or the boat to test fit, but I cant imagine a 60A ESC not fitting, there is quite a bit of space inside, i did measure up the internal dimentions and put them in the what's the biggest motor the minisprint will take thread if you want to check fitment before purchase.

Recommended props are above, same props will work on both KVs apart from the X427 which will only work on 3s with the lower KV, replace that with an x430 for 2s 3650KV. The only 3 bladers I tried were Octura V9 series V930, V932, V935 trying to get more speed, but they didn't work well, there are no 3 bladers really suitable at the moment and the hull doesn't need 3 blades, but I have seen an ABC prop list with small 1/8" 3 bladers on it that I want to try, but I have not seen them for sale yet and are not on the ABC website yet.

The strut/stinger/stuffing tube combo is pretty craptastic and if I was building one again I would use an actual strut, but I was intrigued as to how well it would work and how long it would last (better than I thought and longer than I thought, but not as long as a proper bushing and not as easily replaceable as a bushing or bearing). The rudder it comes with is too long and draggy, I cut mine down to just below the water pick up with no ill effects. I would swap to 4mm ID boom tubes to take metric booms that are available here rather than having to sleeve down the 3/16" ones to 4mm.

I didn't have an issue with my turn fin mount, and didn't have an issue with my rudder mount until about my 15th buoy strike, so I am not sure how much of an issue there is there, though maybe it helps that I am a racer and always either going round buoys or an imaginary aproximation of buoys with a set turn radius, rather than just banging the rudder full over at top speed to try a 180 on the spot.

The OSE cable is probably a good idea, I know several of is from the first Zippkits batch lost props due to separation of the stubshaft from the flex, I heard they are better now and suspect it was just an old pot of glue they were using, but I hear never hear bad things about OSE shafts.

No bushings will fit in the stock drive arangement, the stubshaft runs directly in the stuffing tube, which has a small sheath on the end to stiffen it where it exits the hull. as the brass tubes are all sliding fits on each other, it would be possible to fit one tube over another and solder together until you built up enough ID to fit proper leadteflon bushings or ball bearings inside.

Depends what I was building it for, if I was building another to race the 6 minute Naviga Mini Hydro class, I would build from the plan not the kit, make slightly shorter sponsons, use much thinner wood, I would downsize the motor to a28x29 Mega 16/7/x, use a smaller 30A ESC, fit metric boom tubes, put a little less bend in the turn fin, use a 1.2mm wire drive, fit a ball raced strut, mod and fit this rudder, ditch the servo mount, and use 3.5mm connectors.
If I was building another for the silly fast MPBA Mini Hydro Sprint Class, I would cut off the tips of the sponsons, fit metric boom tubes, get a trusted flexshaft, ditch the servo mount, cut the rudder down, add a diagonal support to the rudder mount, and fit a strut.
Paul.

[Dashunde]

Thanks Paul, thats a lot to absorb and the wife has plans for me today, in the meantime one thing did catch my immediate attn...
What strut would fit on this tiny thing? Still use the ski? I have two of the soldierd cables already, so I'd want to use them w/ the strut.

[NativePaul]

I use full 1/8" shafts now rather than the stock 4mm stub stepped down to 1/8" so I can wrap a ballrace around it without increasing the outside diameter of the strut. I modded one of these for my minisprint's Mini Hydro replacement, it is the wrong way round in their picture. I cut the nose off mine and drilled each end to take the smallest 1/8" ballraces I could get, it is only 7mm outside diameter so it leaves paper thin alloy around the bearings but with retainer they have held up fine and it runs like a dream, though I will probably mod a 4mm strut for my Mini Hydro Sprint to leave a little more meat around the ballraces (as it is not as weight critical and spins a bigger prop).

Etti do a fairly small and light 4mm ballrace strut, and TFL do a leadteflon 4mm strut that I haven't used but might have a smaller diameter. Are the OSE shafts cut to exact length? If so you may have to run the stock setup to get the length right, and just replace the stuffing tube when it wears out and gets sloppy.

I would still use the ski.

[SweetAccord]

Look at my album and you can see how I did bearings in the strut. It's pretty easy. Cut off the stock stuffing tube, add a larger diameter that the drive shaft fits though and the brass stuffing tube hold diameter wise, and pack it all in there. I don't recall all the sizes and all but that what I did in a nutshell.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...hmentid=136676

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...hmentid=136685

You can even see the bearing on the end of the stuffing tube.

[bob horowitz]

Hey Guys,
I finally got to test the changes I made on my Mini. Like I said in previous posts, I'm running a Leopard 2845 3650 kv motor with cooling, a 60amp HK Blue ESC with a cooling plate and a variety of 2200 mah 3S batteries. The thing that made the biggest difference in how this boat runs, is the prop I'm now running. It's a 3 blade 1214-15/60 prepped by Brian Buass. The prop is the bomb. The boat is faster and handles better with this prop than anything else I've tried. My boat is pretty heavy, so it's probably not as fast as some, but it still gets up to about 52 mph on my Gps. I want to cut down my rudder a little, and adjust the turn fin attitude and maybe I can squeeze it a little more. Maybe I'll add a wire drive. They kind of intrigue me. Never tried one.
Regards,
Bob

[ray schrauwen]

I use full 1/8" shafts now rather than the stock 4mm stub stepped down to 1/8" so I can wrap a ballrace around it without increasing the outside diameter of the strut. I modded one of these for my minisprint's Mini Hydro replacement, it is the wrong way round in their picture. I cut the nose off mine and drilled each end to take the smallest 1/8" ballraces I could get, it is only 7mm outside diameter so it leaves paper thin alloy around the bearings but with retainer they have held up fine and it runs like a dream, though I will probably mod a 4mm strut for my Mini Hydro Sprint to leave a little more meat around the ballraces (as it is not as weight critical and spins a bigger prop).

Etti do a fairly small and light 4mm ballrace strut, and TFL do a leadteflon 4mm strut that I haven't used but might have a smaller diameter. Are the OSE shafts cut to exact length? If so you may have to run the stock setup to get the length right, and just replace the stuffing tube when it wears out and gets sloppy.

I would still use the ski.

Hobbyking sells a nice ball raced strut for 4mm as well.

[SweetAccord]

Hey Guys,
I finally got to test the changes I made on my Mini. Like I said in previous posts, I'm running a Leopard 2845 3650 kv motor with cooling, a 60amp HK Blue ESC with a cooling plate and a variety of 2200 mah 3S batteries. The thing that made the biggest difference in how this boat runs, is the prop I'm now running. It's a 3 blade 1214-15/60 prepped by Brian Buass. The prop is the bomb. The boat is faster and handles better with this prop than anything else I've tried. My boat is pretty heavy, so it's probably not as fast as some, but it still gets up to about 52 mph on my Gps. I want to cut down my rudder a little, and adjust the turn fin attitude and maybe I can squeeze it a little more. Maybe I'll add a wire drive. They kind of intrigue me. Never tried one.
Regards,
Bob

Wire drive is what works really well in this hull since the drive line is a long smooth curve. You will gain more speed with one. Keep the liner in it and get the following:

- Octura Coupler Flex Hex 1/8" to .062 piano wire
- 1.6 mm wire drive

A back cut prop will yield more rpm's also. So if the one you have is not you may want to look into that also or have some tongue removed depending on the type.

Good info on prop mods in my album: https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...hmentid=147331

[bob horowitz]

Hi Sweet Accord,
My boat has the standard brass stuffing tube in it. Do you just put the wire drive in instead of the flex and stub shaft? No mods to the stuffing tube? I don't have to cut the tube and use a strut with bearings?
Bob

[SweetAccord]

Hi Sweet Accord,
My boat has the standard brass stuffing tube in it. Do you just put the wire drive in instead of the flex and stub shaft? No mods to the stuffing tube? I don't have to cut the tube and use a strut with bearings?
Bob

Correct. Use the stock brass tube. Find bearing that fit the drive shaft, and use about 3 of them. RC car bearing work well, use Corrosion X to keep them from getting corroded as they are not sealed. Ceramic type are even better as they don't corrode. You can add a brass or aluminum spacer or insert like in the pics to give some support. I just did all bearings I think with a tiny spacer to fill in the gap.

Cut off the send and measure the depth of the 3 bearing and fit them into a brass tube that is longer and epoxy it over the existing brass tube. I don't know all the sizes but if you look in my album you can see it finished. It's not hard to do and free's up the drive line a lot. Yes to just adding the wire drive, but you have to use a different drive shaft. I think I got them from Jeff Wholt, maybe it was OSE. I don't recall as I did this a while back. The wire you can get at local hardware shops, online, even ACE Hardware has them. Very cheap.

There is no strut to use, again look at my album pics, you keep and use the stock stuffing tube. If you want to use a strut for support you can but that will be more work and have to drill into the back of the tansom. It's not really needed as the rear of the JAE has plenty of support as it's a short exit and a strut is not needed. That was part of the design. Plus less weight. Less weight = more speed.

Hope that helps.

[SweetAccord]

Here are pics to give you a visual to see what it looks like:

[bob horowitz]

Pretty cool. I'll have to look in my bearing catalogs to see what size bearings are available with a 1/8 ID. I might even have something here in the shop. I could probably even use a couple of needle bearings. Help keep the OD small.

[SweetAccord]

Pretty cool. I'll have to look in my bearing catalogs to see what size bearings are available with a 1/8 ID. I might even have something here in the shop. I could probably even use a couple of needle bearings. Help keep the OD small.

Sure, you can't do it wrong really. There are few ways it can be done. The only scary part is to NOT cut too far off the existing stuffing tube that exists out the back or you are screwed. In the example above they already did a larger stuffing tube so they did not build up the stuffing tube. In your case since it's already built, you have cut and add a sleeve to it and go bigger to get the bearing to fit.