P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[Doug Smock]

1) How does one clearly test or determine that?
2) How does one easily and accurately tech that?
3) Given a whole mess of motors that all fall under a specific set of dimensions, can the wattage really vary that much?

1 and 2 good questions. Not looking for trouble but, you know.

3. I have no idea. But there are records on the books. You can't stray too far from what you have (approx.900w?)without archiving them can you? Or would they have to be archived anyway when you add motors to the list? I don't know that's why I'm inquiring. Good question no?

Not trying to derail the thread at all, just throwing it out there fellas.

[dethow]

As a newbie in the hobby running up here in Michigan with MMEU... I really don't understand the continued use of the limited motors. I've seen what's been said here and I get the theories that I won't reiterate but I think these things could be accomplished for new people by just plainly having a couple classes for specific off the shelf boats with limits to all aspects of what modifications, props, and batteries that can be used.

I'm not sure how many other clubs run an SV27 class like we do, but that is the best thing for new guys if that standard was set for some other boats that can compete with each other off the shelf. For example... a stock mono class for the Impulse and Revolt. A cat class for the Blackjack, Motley, Lucas and Geico. And now maybe a class for the Spartan and Voracity. Keep them to stock motor and esc that comes in the boat and limit the prop size and battery discharge rate. Make it so these boats won’t burn up and keep them all competitive. Example being is that if a certain cat comes stock with an 1800kv motor while another comes with a 2000kv... allow a larger prop on the 1800kv boat so it can compete with the 2000kv boat while both being within design limits so they don't burn up.

At this year’s Michigan Cup I burnt up a motor in my SV27. No reason for it… it was just it’s time I guess. You know how many people couldn’t believe a motor went out??? Everyone I told. Nobody had ever heard of an SV burning a motor in that class because the rules are set to not push the boat’s limits.

Now that’s fun for new people. Give them a class that they can run race after race without burning motors and testing props to be more competitive.

I know I don’t know or understand all the history into these things but I’m just saying that the limited motor idea itself is old and should be abolished all together. Just provide a couple classes for new people to get involved, which if done like our SV27 class would be more fun. New people getting into this hobby can burn a lot of money finding the right prop and batteries to compete with the guys that have been doing it for years.

And last… the limitations on boat size and battery voltage is enough. You can only make a 34” boat go so fast before you can’t finish a race without flipping over. If someone wants to go put a high kv motor in an oval race boat let em’. Just one more DFN to drive around for those who set up their boat and drive within its size limits.

In a newbie's opinion... that should be the "next thing".

[dethow]

And one more idea for the "new thing"... Get rid of the word "Limited" all together. Call them "P-Mono Iroc", "P-Cat Iroc", "P-Offshore Iroc" and Q-Mono Iroc" for the Spartan and Voracity. The whole word "Limited" is belittling.

I guarantee you'd get more new people involved if they could ACTUALLY just go buy a boat, look up the battery and prop rules and be running the same thing as everyone else on the water with no worry of burning up money every weekend they race because the don't have the time to test and setup like the advanced guys do.

As they race and have fun they will see and learn what the faster unlimited racers are doing. If they choose to spend the money and time they too could then move up to faster boats.

This system of limiting advanced users so that newbies can compete with them is counter productive. The advanced guys will always be faster anyway because of prop, setup and driving knowledge. Meantime you are causing the newbie to burn motors and ecs's (money) in an attempt to compete with the advanced guys. And all this talk of having a new list of motors makes things even more complicated for newbies. So now a new person goes and buys a brand new boat and has to pull the stock motor and start testing to even consider being competitive. You've just turned what should be a fun new hobby into a chore. And if that newbie doesn't take it as a chore to learn fast??? They will not be competitive and thus no fun. No fun equals no show to next race. End result... less and less new people involved.

If some want a limited motor class to showcase their tuning capabilities, that's fine. But it shouldn't be masked with a theory of making it easier for new people to get involved in the hobby. The easiest thing for a new person would be to have spec class boats.

[rayzerdesigns]

darin as to reference motors blowing up at 2015 nats..it wasn't limited to p limited motors..i pretty much talked to everyone in attendance and consensus was everyone was down 2 to 3 prop sizes..water was dense..warm and full of algae..but enough of that...my fear if we go to a size and or weight limit..i just think it will be too much..too many choices..but again just my opinion..i like the idea of keeping it simple..maybe 4 or 5 motor choices period..and I don't think we need a 185 dollar motor..my idea of p limited is to keep it affordable..and easy for the beginners..as well as others..i prefer to run the limited classes because I don't have to have huge batteries..expensive motors..but again that's my opinion..

[Darin Jordan]

Or would they have to be archived anyway when you add motors to the list?

Honestly, Doug, my goal would be to NOT have a list.

Publish the allowed Maximum dimensions, KV, weight, etc. , and put the onus on the racer to select legal equipment. Just like the do for fuel engine classes.

[jaike5]

Now that Darin has pretty well nailed the motor issue. now the other problem is the esc. Go with the stock Aqua craft/proboat they are a great little esc's, and water proof! The motors only became an issue when the 120, 180, 200, 220, 300 amp esc's with massive cap banks that allow that much current to the motor with highly modified props that should never make it on a limited/spec boat.

MMEU has got it right with the SV27 class , follow that model. As stated earlier leave all the rtr out of the box as stock classes with no mod's to the motor/esc.

If you want to go fast, grow some stones and run Q-hydro, open mono, open cat ! Then go wild with all the mod's you want. Leave the rtr's for the new guy's and gals to enjoy and get hooked, and let the hobby flourish

Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

I'm not for stock speedos myself but understand the thinking.


High points is totally a drivers thing. Its based on the average number entries for every racer at the event. We use that to determine the number of classes to include in the high points. So let's say the average is 8. Racers then accumulate points from the 8 most heavily attended classes. Those are always the limited classes. Every time. Then maybe a P mono slipped in if its popular that year.

So if you attend one of these, the guys that run all the less popular classes like T hydro, T mono, Q sport aren't doing so in their quest for high points. You aren't standing around watching them chase high points. They just dig those classes.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I think adding a limit on wattage is tough to tech. Also limiting the rest of the parameters, should also be a limiting factor on wattage.

Please add to the list leopard 3650 1840kv 4y

[Steven Vaccaro]

Now that Darin has pretty well nailed the motor issue. now the other problem is the esc. Go with the stock Aqua craft/proboat they are a great little esc's, and water proof! The motors only became an issue when the 120, 180, 200, 220, 300 amp esc's with massive cap banks that allow that much current to the motor with highly modified props that should never make it on a limited/spec boat.

MMEU has got it right with the SV27 class , follow that model. As stated earlier leave all the rtr out of the box as stock classes with no mod's to the motor/esc.

If you want to go fast, grow some stones and run Q-hydro, open mono, open cat ! Then go wild with all the mod's you want. Leave the rtr's for the new guy's and gals to enjoy and get hooked, and let the hobby flourish

Cheers, Jay.

Jay I see your point. but limiting to aqua and proboat is a no different than the current problem with limiting motors from the same companies. Id say a 120 amps should be more than enough.

[Darin Jordan]

Jay I see your point. but limiting to aqua and proboat is a no different than the current problem with limiting motors from the same companies. Id say a 120 amps should be more than enough.

Well... and that, again, ties you to single-stream suppliers with varying availability and definitely NO stability in the supply. Pro Boat, for example, is now selling there RTRs with 120A, programmable ESCs... I'm not sure that's really "limiting" anything, especially when we are "pretty sure" that these are similar to the 150A Hobbywing ESCs that many of you use.

[Darin Jordan]

Please add to the list leopard 3650 1840kv 4y

Thanks, Steven, I'll add that. I found a few others as well, and Brian has a couple to add also.

People, I would like to challenge you to something: Take the specifications I've listed, and go out and TRY to find motors that fit the spec. Post them here and I'll add them to the list.


You are going to find out that the limits we're talking about make that search PRETTY darned narrow already. The list of suitable motors turns out to be pretty small, unless you go SMALLER on one or more of the dimensions, in which case you are drastically lowering the power of the motor (watts).

Actually doing this exercise reinforces my personal opinion that we do NOT need to have NAMBA maintain a list of motors, and that defining these specs is the way to go. Most, if not all of these "fears" are just not really going to come to fruition, and wouldn't matter much in regards to competitiveness, if they did.

[T.S.Davis]

Darin, my SSS motors were 36.02mm. Pretty close.

Interesting to me is how small the rotor is inside the can. It's like they didn't use the space they had.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Well... and that, again, ties you to single-stream suppliers with varying availability and definitely NO stability in the supply. Pro Boat, for example, is now selling there RTRs with 120A, programmable ESCs... I'm not sure that's really "limiting" anything, especially when we are "pretty sure" that these are similar to the 150A Hobbywing ESCs that many of you use.

Are you saying you agree that only aqua and proboat esc's should be used?

[Darin Jordan]

Are you saying you agree that only aqua and proboat esc's should be used?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to tie the ESC to a manufacturer or supply stream. You just can't count on them being available or consistent.

Don't spec ANYTHING you don't have to... That's my default position.

[dethow]

Guys, I'm just not getting the logic here. It seems like we all want better motors to be included in the limited class so we can run faster. Isn't that already defined by the open (unlimited) classes? You're talking about using motors in the limited class that one could use in the open class and be competitive.

An example of this is that I witnessed a TFL Pursuit with a TP 3630 1950kv motor and a X447/3 prop run with P-Sport Hydros and keep up with them. That Pursuit had to be running between 55 to 60mph.... If a new person gets involved and brings their Revolt with stock motor and esc to the pond that does 45mph they can not compete. And if you expect a newbie to upgrade that revolt to a TP motor... okay fine. But will that Revolt even handle those speeds??? And what about the cats??? How is a Motley, Lucas or Geico going to handle that extra 10mph? A lot of blow overs is all that's going to happen. So now to actually be competitive in the limited classes one will need to buy a better hull. (Cleared up a mis-understanding below. This was actually a TP4060 motor. Sorry)

I just feel that this change to limited class motors is making the boats run at open (unlimited) class speeds and more or less cutting out the off the shelf hulls.

Don't get me wrong here... I'd love to get a better motor in my Pursuit and run faster. But that desire leans more towards wishing MMEU ran more open classes and less limited classes. I have also seen new people come around and I think it gets over whelming for them to think they could actually get involved in this hobby. That's why I think a different direction altogether is warranted.

Provide a few spec boat classes for beginners to run their off the shelf boats and abolish the limited motors altogether. The SV27 class that MMEU runs is a lot of fun and there are several experienced guys that continue to race it. I think you'd see the same reaction for a more defined spec class for larger mono and cats. I for one would go buy something to compete in an other spec class. I enjoy my SV27. I have minimal investment into it and don't have to wrench on it all the time.

My thought is that... using us at MMEU as an example... we currently race the following: MMEU SV27, P-Limited Mono, P-Limited Cat, P-Limited Sport Hydro, P-Limited Offshore, P-Sport Hydro, Q-Sport Hydro and sometimes a couple scale classes. So, that's 8 to 9 classes on a typical Sunday.

We could change that to the following: P-Mono Iroc (Spec), P-Cat Iroc (Spec), P-Offshore Iroc (Spec), P-Mono, P-Cat, P-Offshore, P-Sport Hydro, Q-Sport Hydro and maybe one scale class. Making the same 8 to 9 classes.

[jaike5]

Darin, there is No stability in the market in any of the esc's we use. Hydra HV comes to mind. I was just going with what comes out of the box . We have logged those wee little aqua esc's holding there own at 90 amps in the corners. If you start poring cash into the rtr's the newbie gets bummed out and his/ her boat sits on the shelf collecting dust and there out.

Cheers, Jay

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, there is No stability in the market in any of the esc's we use. Hydra HV comes to mind. I was just going with what comes out of the box . We have logged those wee little aqua esc's holding there own at 90 amps in the corners. If you start poring cash into the rtr's the newbie gets bummed out and his/ her boat sits on the shelf collecting dust and there out.

Cheers, Jay

Jay, I understand what you are saying, which is EXACTLY why I do NOT want NAMBA rules in the business of having to document part numbers or defining that level of specifics. That's where we are now, and it ONLY works while the parts are available. I would think we'd want to get to a point where we did NOT have to revisit the rules every time there is a change in technology.

Just my opinion. We'll have to keep discussing it.

[RandyatBBY]

Darin I think we are getting it narrowed down to what it needs to be. Are you going to write the new proposal? From what I am reading coming from you I like it.

[T.S.Davis]

An example of this is that I witnessed a TFL Pursuit with a TP 3630 1950kv motor and a X447/3 prop run with P-Sport Hydros and keep up with them. That Pursuit had to be running between 55 to 60mph.... .

Dave, that was a 4060 1950kv. It's a ton more motor than a 3630 is. I don't have a TP3630. I have an SSS motor that's close I think.

The idea here is NOT to add more powerful motors to limited at all. That would totally screw up what's working. It's to write a spec that only allows motors that are close in performance to what we've been running since 2008.

I'm not for singling out stock boat guys. They need to be included and not placed at a separate table like the little kids at thanks giving dinner. Plus that just further divides the numbers. An SV or even a Revolt stocker class is fine but not IMO for the everyone.

Jay, we have a LOT of P limited boats in our club. Some with AQ speedo, some with PB, some with Seaking, some with Castle. Makes no difference. The motor is the week link. In fact, some of our classes were won by guys with AQ Revolts in stock form. I don't think my boats are slow and still those guy won so I think the speedos don't do a thing for me.

With the dim and weight limits I think that will still be the case.

I'm still worried about the max cost thing. I know we could "what if" this to death. I worry that some manufacturer will find some superior unobtainium winding material and then we all gotta have em. Rotor wrapped in Irukandji tentacles.

[Ken Haines]

[QUOTE=dethow;639463]Guys, I'm just not getting the logic here. It seems like we all want better motors to be included in the limited class so we can run faster. Isn't that already defined by the open (unlimited) classes? You're talking about using motors in the limited class that one could use in the open class and be competitive.

No No No................I will be openly opposed to motors that are added to the list that
end up changing the speeds of the limited classes. That would mean all racers at club,
big race or national levels would have to buy all new motors to stay competitive.
Again this is why I am foot dragging on this topic. We do currently have a list of motors
that is still available and the class is working just the way it is. So lets not invent a new crisis
here. Darin I respect you immensely, but not sure of the reason for a rush on this.
Our sport is fragile enough at least in our area and at the large race level as observed by the
drop in race attendance at all venues even gas and nitro this entire year.
Not to start a hornets nest but some Aquacraft failures are do to the lead wires shorting as
the enter the can. This is something we all know. I also know this had been beaten to death
before, but maybe should we have allowed simple lead wire insulation addition like 1 piece of
shrink on the middle lead wire. Please lets discuss like gentlemen as I know this issue got real
ugly some time ago.

I would also add that I hope the renewed interest in racing rules here is also an indication of
renewed interest in racing that will show up as an increase in attendance.

[RandyatBBY]

Dave, that was a 4060 1950kv. It's a ton more motor than a 3630 is. I don't have a TP3630. I have an SSS motor that's close I think.

The idea here is NOT to add more powerful motors to limited at all. That would totally screw up what's working. It's to write a spec that only allows motors that are close in performance to what we've been running since 2008.

I'm not for singling out stock boat guys. They need to be included and not placed at a separate table like the little kids at thanks giving dinner. Plus that just further divides the numbers. An SV or even a Revolt stocker class is fine but not IMO for the everyone.

Jay, we have a LOT of P limited boats in our club. Some with AQ speedo, some with PB, some with Seaking, some with Castle. Makes no difference. The motor is the week link. In fact, some of our classes were won by guys with AQ Revolts in stock form. I don't think my boats are slow and still those guy won so I think the speedos don't do a thing for me.

With the dim and weight limits I think that will still be the case.

I'm still worried about the max cost thing. I know we could "what if" this to death. I worry that some manufacturer will find some superior unobtainium winding material and then we all gotta have em. Rotor wrapped in Irukandji tentacles.

What is this world coming to...... you are making good sense! I like it when a thread is constructive.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin I respect you immensely, but not sure of the reason for a rush on this.

Ken... Just to be clear... I'm not rushing anything. Just discussing the issue.

[Darin Jordan]

Another thing that people might want to take note of...


That TP motor that so many of you keep saying is "on par" with the UL-1 motor...

Looking at it's specs, it's CLEARLY a superior motor. "Faster", if you will... Want a clue why? Look at it's mass...

[dethow]

Understood Terry... I defiantly misunderstood what you were running in that boat.

You guys all have much more experience with these different motors and my opinions were based on a mis-understanding of what I thought you were running in that. So I will bow down to your knowledge and trust whatever you guys do will be the best for the hobby. I just hate to see things get harder and harder for new people to get involved.

I guess I just see that a stronger motor option will lead to people pushing the props more and being able to run a 2000kv motor with a larger X447 or M545 prop. This will lead to a speed gain that a stock AQ can not achieve without burning up.

I understand you saying you don't want to put new guys at the kids table, but IMO these stronger limited motors will set new people as none competitive unless they too upgrade their motor, esc, connectors and prop. Are we possibly expecting to much from new guys??? Will new people want to make those kind of investments and learning process before they've even had a chance to have some fun in the hobby with a minimal investment? Yeah they can come out an put a stock AQ or PB on the water and race with the big dogs.... but loosing isn't fun.

[RandyatBBY]

Please add to the list leopard 3650 1840kv 4y

Will you be getting the motor with a 5MM shaft?

[T.S.Davis]

I understand you saying you don't want to put new guys at the kids table, but IMO these stronger limited motors will set new people as none competitive unless they too upgrade their motor, esc, connectors and prop. Are we possibly expecting to much from new guys??? Will new people want to make those kind of investments and learning process before they've even had a chance to have some fun in the hobby with a minimal investment? Yeah they can come out an put a stock AQ or PB on the water and race with the big dogs.... but loosing isn't fun.

This is what we're trying to avoid. We don't want to open the door to motors that make the existing stuff junk. It's a touchy thing that will require proof of concept.

[Doby]

Understood Terry... I defiantly misunderstood what you were running in that boat.

You guys all have much more experience with these different motors and my opinions were based on a mis-understanding of what I thought you were running in that. So I will bow down to your knowledge and trust whatever you guys do will be the best for the hobby. I just hate to see things get harder and harder for new people to get involved.

I guess I just see that a stronger motor option will lead to people pushing the props more and being able to run a 2000kv motor with a larger X447 or M545 prop. This will lead to a speed gain that a stock AQ can not achieve without burning up.

I understand you saying you don't want to put new guys at the kids table, but IMO these stronger limited motors will set new people as none competitive unless they too upgrade their motor, esc, connectors and prop. Are we possibly expecting to much from new guys??? Will new people want to make those kind of investments and learning process before they've even had a chance to have some fun in the hobby with a minimal investment? Yeah they can come out an put a stock AQ or PB on the water and race with the big dogs.... but loosing isn't fun.

You need to get away from the "stronger motor" mentality...just more motor options to supplement the current ones.
Lets face it, you could limit the kv to 1000 and people will still burn motors trying to get the max out of them. Max kv does not automatically mean you have the fastest boat and will win. If people constantly burn up the 2030s, then either check your setups or go with an 1800 kv motor.

[Ken Haines]

Ken... Just to be clear... I'm not rushing anything. Just discussing the issue.

Perfect.....I may have just misunderstood
Thanks

[Doby]

Yeah they can come out an put a stock AQ or PB on the water and race with the big dogs.... but loosing isn't fun.

FYI the Revolt I used to win the P-Limited Offshore at the Cup this year was bone stock (1800 kv) except for a dinged up m445.
FYI, The Motley Crew I used to win the P-Limited Cat at the Cup this year was bone stock (1800 kv) except for a 40 dollar HK ESC and a prop.

No need to spend a lot of money.....just time on the water.

You can be competitive right out of the box...but you need to tune your boats.

[Darin Jordan]

Perfect.....I may have just misunderstood
Thanks

No worries! It's a LOT to read through!

Just be assured... my moto, generally for all of life, is "Do it once, do it RIGHT!"... Or "Do it RIGHT, do it once"... Or something to that effect.