P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[ray schrauwen]

Local clubs generally don't sanction their monthly or ?? races.

Either way... local clubs can already do whatever they generally want.

My thought above is in NO WAY attempt to "fix" P-LTD... I would leave P-LTD exactly like it is... make NO changes to it for the long-term... No additions, etc... No further arguing necessary.

The "P-LITE" thought would be an entirely different entity. It would ELIMINATE the need to specify ANY PARTICULAR motors... Define a MAX Length and Diameter.

Teching would be done with a go/nogo gauge or a pair of calipers. If you want to run an outrunner... fine... it still needs to fit into the 36mm x 61mm mold (by the way... these are approximate... might need to make them 36.3mm or something like that... but you get the point.)

P-LTD boats would still fit the mold... so they'd could competitively race the class as-is. Definitely just run it at a Club level initially. If it gains momentum, maybe take the next step.

My guess is that it would end up taking over P-LTD and P-LTD would go away. That would be ideal, honestly. People would NOT have to retool entire fleets, but now the options are opened up and the class would literally be a more limited performance version of "P" (Single vs. multi-motor, and drastically limited in motor size).

Seems like a solid way forward in my opinion.

I sort of like it too. What I like better is what some Quebec clubs went to for P sport, or lite??

What they did was chose the Leopard 3674, 2200kv boat motor, HW120 or 180 esc and one 4s pack of 6000mah'ish.

They are right in between p sport and p Ltd. They run the snot out of them and since Canada pays a premium for anything hobby related, it's more economical than both p sport or p Ltd.

These are their club rules and it's also very close to the Aussie style setups/rules.

Americans make up a large majority of all the FE runners out there and since they have more buying power, they seem to gravitate to the most HP that can be stuffed into a hull. I've done this in the past I've decided to scale back.

I'm merely rambling. Limited class racing I like, I'd just like more consistent motor supplies/parity that gets annoying when you hear xx changed manufacturers, etc, bla bla... I don't like paying top dollar for a spec motor if they just changed the motor to some cheaper faster blowing fuse, that's annoying!

[rayzerdesigns]

Ray not to bust ur chops but a 36x74 leopard is way stronger than any p limited motor..but again I think the idea of sizing would be great.. Seems to be the consensus here.. Darin I think is going to measure a couple motors as will I.. But 36.x50 is prob close

[Darin Jordan]

But 36.x50 is prob close

The 36x50 motors I tested were quite a bit LESS powerful than the present P-LTD bunch, but I think that's partially because they are all 4-Pole. vs. 6.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin I think is going to measure a couple motors as will I..

I measured up several of the motors I have available here at home. The results are below.

NOTE: All of these are motors I would feel very comfortable with having fit into the "P-LITE" class.

Of these, the largest Diameter is 36.3712mm (Pro Boat Dynamite 1800) and the longest Length is 61.1378mm (SSS 3660 2050KV)

P_LITE_MOTOR_SIZES.jpg

[T.S.Davis]

61.1378mm (SSS 3660 2050KV)

Is that the new Promarine motor? I think that one should be legal too.

[Darin Jordan]

Is that the new Promarine motor? I think that one should be legal too.

I don't have one here to measure, but I believe it is NOT... I can't recall exactly, but the Pro Marine motor I tested may have only been 58mm long... The one I listed here was a TP 3660-2050KV 4-Pole. The Pro Marine I think is a 3656 or 3659-2050KV 6-Pole.

Either way... if the sizes are defined correctly (as they would be :) ), it would fit.

[dethow]

So it seems your current proposal is to leave current "P-Limited" alone and add a whole new set of classes called (maybe) "P-lite".

Will this cause any problems at National events with many new classes? P-Lite Mono, P-Lite Cat, P-Lite Sport Hydro, P-Lite Hydro, P-Lite Offshore...
IOW... Will there be enough time in a weekend to run this many new classes?

I understand the desire to not rock the boat by leaving current P-limited alone, but doesn't this proposal create a whole new problem of too many classes for an event? And two classes "P-Limited" and "P-Lite" being so close together in terms of speed is ridiculous.

I feel that these measurements should just go ahead and be implemented as the new "P-Limited" motor rules. Let the local clubs set their own rules to stick with only certain motors if they want. But at National events all motors fitting the measurements should be allowed in "P-Limited".

IOW... LOVE the measurements idea, HATE the creating of a whole new set of classes.

Change the text in that box and add the measurements image... DONE

[T.S.Davis]

I hear ya Dave but if this works like I think it will it will be like we pulled the plug out of the wall on limited. Nobody will be running them.

It's not really a proposal at this point anyway. It's more of a "hey, what if we tried this?"

If at some point this proves successful it's time to flush some crap out of the book. We've never done this by the way. I would be comfortable myself with archiving some classes. Honestly, I see know point in there being any 2s classes in the book. I have a half dozen 2s boats but they make no sense in 2016. I can go the same speed on the 4s1p instead of 2s2p with a cheaper motor and speedo. That may be just me though. I discourage people from 2s because it's hard to go fast there.

[T.S.Davis]

Although.......Dave may have a point. I'm not hearing a bunch of hand wringing over this like I thought we would. Maybe we just run it with the understanding that the future is to replace limited with lite.

If in the end we find our idea just sucks we do nothing.

[dethow]

...but if this works like I think it will it will be like we pulled the plug out of the wall on limited. Nobody will be running them.

And I think that's my point...
We are getting all worried about leaving P-Limited alone so we don't have people crying. But in the end no one will be running them anyway once they have access to better and in some cases cheaper motors. So why even leave this set of classes in the book? Why make it so Nationals needs to include "P-Limited" classes AND "P-Lite" classes?

Guarantee that anyone with a "P-Limited" boat will run it in "P-Lite" as well... and be competitive.
Hell, Marc (HobbyMaster) won a heat of 'P-Sport Hydro' with his 'P-Limited Sport Hydro' Aquacraft UL-1 at Michigan Cup.

So what are we doing here? Lets' just get real and replace the motor list with motor dimensions.

[Darin Jordan]

We are getting all worried about leaving P-Limited alone so we don't have people crying.

I'm not worried about that. NOt sure who "We" is referring too, but it's not something I'm concerned with, since this present discussion wouldn't obsolete anyone's present investment. The way it's being discussed, P-LIMITED boats would drop right into P-LITE, and, frankly, would still be quite competitive there.

Like Terry said, all this is just tossing ideas around at this moment. I just like to put things down into "picture" form so people can discuss the ideas based on how they'll ACTUALLY look on "paper". Hopefully keeps the fear-mongering concerning those "magic motors" out there from coming up too much.

I've tested probably harder than most regarding gathering raw data for power systems, and from what I can tell... you limit the physical size of the system, and you ultimately limit the performance potential of the system. There will be good options and not-as-good options, but ultimately, they can only put out SO much power. I just don't see the "arms race" that others might, based on the facts and data I've studied.

[ray schrauwen]

Ray not to bust ur chops but a 36x74 leopard is way stronger than any p limited motor..but again I think the idea of sizing would be great.. Seems to be the consensus here.. Darin I think is going to measure a couple motors as will I.. But 36.x50 is prob close

I know, I was just rambling about what other places are doing. Not many people care about my silly posts anyway.

[dethow]

So is the "possible" proposal to leave current "P-Limited" alone and add a whole new set of classes called (maybe) "P-lite"?
Or... is it to eliminate "P-Limited" and make a new class called "P-Lite"?

And "We" is referring to the people in this thread that like the measurements idea. Your measurements idea goes back to the very first post you made Darin. But several times in this thread, when someone started crying about their fleet being eliminated and/or having to buy all new motors you/we have started pulling back to the list idea and only including motors that are more reasonably similar to the current list.

[Darin Jordan]

So is the "possible" proposal to leave current "P-Limited" alone and add a whole new set of classes called (maybe) "P-lite"?
Or... is it to eliminate "P-Limited" and make a new class called "P-Lite"?

Not sure at this point.

Were it up to me... I wouldn't even change the name. I'd simple change the wording of the rules to implement the "Lite" idea. Truly what would be happening is that you'd be "limiting" the size of the motor allowed, just still running them on 4S. Hence, P-Limited. :)

[Doby]

As P-Limited fit in to the P-Lite, no-ones current boats should be eliminated. Its basically a non-issue.

[dethow]

Personally... I think the only reason NAMBA should need to get away from the "list" and go with measurements is that NAMBA should NOT be dictating certain manufactures to racers. If I were TP Power, Leopard and others... I'd be upset that NAMBA has specifically cut them out of multiple racing classes.

[dethow]

Were it up to me... I wouldn't even change the name.

Okay, and that's where I'm at.
Leave the name, change the list of motors to measurements and add the diagram to show how measurements are taken.

Has been said several times... current P-Limited boats still fit and thus no ones boat is eliminated.

[T.S.Davis]

If I were TP Power, Leopard and others... I'd be upset that NAMBA has specifically cut them out of multiple racing classes.

It's hard to imagine but back in the day when we cooked that limited turd up there was no TP or Leapord motors. Brushless motors then were basically Hacker, Fiegao, and Lehner and that was about it. All of those 2 pole. We were looking for a replacement then for 700 brushed motors. We used the blue 1700kv motors from the original SV and the 1500kv grey motors from the original blackcrap cat. We didn't specifically exclude them. It wasn't deliberate is what I'm saying.

What we produced was a great spec for a number of years but with a shelf life. Newland and I have talked about that before. It held up longer than we thought it would.

Roll forward "x" number of years and we have just what Dave described. Exclusion. We're in effect keeping out new players like a Promarine for example. I keep coming back to Mike just because he's the newest guy to the market. Most know we have our differences but he should be able to produce something legal without some sort of divine intervention.

[dethow]

Yeah.. I understand it wasn't specifically done to exclude them. They didn't exist at the time.
I just saying that beside the various problems with the current list... the now existing exclusion should be enough reason to make a change.

And this measurements idea is the best way to make a change that should last the test of time allowing all current and future manufactures in if they fit the measurements.

[Darin Jordan]

And this measurements idea is the best way to make a change that should last the test of time allowing all current and future manufactures in if they fit the measurements.

And, absolute in interpretation and implementation when it comes to teching... GO/NOGO... Done.

[dethow]

And, absolute in interpretation and implementation when it comes to teching... GO/NOGO... Done.

So... how do we get this done, instead of going on for another 25 pages about it? LOL

[rayzerdesigns]

I'm thinking we need to write a proposal for the rule change

[madmikepags]

get er done

[Fluid]

.....If I were TP Power, Leopard and others... I'd be upset that NAMBA has specifically cut them out of multiple racing classes.

I think that those motor companies don't give a hoot about what a few dozen NAMBA Limited racers use to power their boats. Split this rather tiny market among three or four motor makers and it's nothing. Why are we worried about hurting their feelings? We should be worried about keeping the class viable.

There are a lot of things wrong with a measurement-only motor limitation, but I too believe that it is the least evil of the proposed motor limits. Maybe have a 1P limitation too.

I suggest that clubs start using this motor spec right now, so that we can make a rules proposal next year.



.

[TRUCKPULL]

I think that those motor companies don't give a hoot about what a few dozen NAMBA Limited racers use to power their boats. Split this rather tiny market among three or four motor makers and it's nothing. Why are we worried about hurting their feelings? We should be worried about keeping the class viable.

There are a lot of things wrong with a measurement-only motor limitation, but I too believe that it is the least evil of the proposed motor limits. Maybe have a 1P limitation too.

I suggest that clubs start using this motor spec right now, so that we can make a rules proposal next year..

Jay
A 1P Limit will not work in "P" Spec Offshore - 4 Min. race.

Also a lot of boats that are already built and being used right now are setup for 4S -2P for weight and balance.

Larry

[Doby]

Jay
A 1P Limit will not work in "P" Spec Offshore - 4 Min. race.

Also a lot of boats that are already built and being used right now are setup for 4S -2P for weight and balance.

Larry

You do not need 2P to finish a 4 minute offshore heat.

[TRUCKPULL]

You do not need 2P to finish a 4 minute offshore heat.

No you do-not if you want to buy all new batteries 8,000 mAmp. then destroy them running them down to 10% all the time.

Then your weight and balance will be all messed up also.

The race is 4 min., 1 full lap for the start, then bring it in.
In IMPBA it is also 1 full lap cool down.

So you have to be prepared to run about 5 Min.++

Larry

[Fluid]

Jay
A 1P Limit will not work in "P" Spec Offshore - 4 Min. race....

Of course it will work, it just requires the racer to actually test his boat to make certain he can finish with some battery left. The boats might be slightly slower, but isn't that the point of Limited classes? At the Michigan Cup there was just a 2 lap difference between P and P Limited Offshore, some PL boats actually did better than some P boats. Geeze, you don't need to buy 8325 mAh cells! 1P/5000 mAh limit...and 1P cuts battery costs in half.

As for those with "boats being built", all they need to do is use balast instead of a second pack. Why is the concept so difficult to understand? I guess too much change at once is just too challenging for some folks...no offense to anyone intended.

I really don't care about 1P or 2P, I doubt I'll be racing Limited boats anymore. But I wonder if all we do is change to more powerful motors, how much difference will there really be between P and "P-Lite"? Just look at the Offshore classes at the Cup to see how close they are now.


.

[TRUCKPULL]

Jay you are looking at total laps after three heats.
The full "P" boats are a lot faster therefore harder to drive.
One cut buoy is a full lap deduction.

"P" spec are easier to drive therefore the total lap count is higher in respective.

You did not comment on the 5+ Min. needed for IMPBA Offshore.

Larry

[JimClark]

Am I correct in my summation of this thread?
The classes affected would be:
P Limited Sport Hydro
P Limited Catamaran
P Limited OPC Tunnel
P Limited Hydro (rigger)
P Limited Mono
P Limited Offshore
The motors would be measured by diameter and length only.
Would it matter on the pole number (4 or 6)?
And 4s lipos