P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[Fluid]

IIRC all of the noise stemmed from the lack of answers when asked about the procedure for technical inspection of the limited motors. I imagine the noise makers that are still interested (if any) will continue to have questions unless there is a clear procedure technical inspections adopted....

It goes back far longer than that, and it is not just with record trials. At the 1996 APBA FE Nats one team was beating everyone, so the losers started the rumor that the winning team was running 14 NiCd cells in the 12-cell classes. No tech was performed, so the rumor flooded the hobby, and the team quit racing a few years later.

At the 1997 FE Nats one entrant in N-1 (stock 05 ROAR motor) ran away from the rest of the field in two classes, and after the event everyone said the guy had illegal motors. But without any tech inspection no one knew for sure, and the guy's name was smeared even by folks who had never been to a race. He left the hobby.

At the 1998 Nats I ran the tech inspections on the N-1 motors, with help from the ROAR Technical Director. At that time the only way to tech a motor was to tear it down, so the winners' motors were unwound, the wire measured and the turns counted. This added $30 to the cost of winning those classes, but it eliminated any unfair name-calling by anyone.

People will cheat, I have seen it several times at National events, but most do not. Without a tech inspection some people will always assume the winner won because he/she cheated.

.

[Darin Jordan]

Do you have any idea how much hand wringing this would make go away? I would support this 100%.

Yes.

[Darin Jordan]

Without a tech inspection some people will always assume the winner won because he/she cheated.

.

Let's not kid ourselves... even WITH tech inspection, people will always assume that the winner cheated. Lance Armstrong proves that case. :)


All that said, I can't think of anyone who holds a current SAW record for P-LTD that has, or frankly WOULD, cheat to get that record. Several have been drawn to participating in the SAW events BECAUSE of the P-LTD classes also. It would be a shame to reduce that participation again because of the paranoia of a few.

Just because YOU (generally speaking "you"... not YOU, Jay. ) can't make a P-LTD motor go that fast, doesn't mean it can't be done. That's a HARD concept for many people to grasp.

IF it gets to unwinding motors, etc., then yes, let's just make them NOT record eligible. Even ROAR doesn't do this any longer. I have a Gauss meter, as well as a motor checker that can measure the resistance of each phase on a motor. Destruction of motors shouldn't be necessary.

[T.S.Davis]

Just because YOU (generally speaking "you"... not YOU, Jay. ) can't make a P-LTD motor go that fast, doesn't mean it can't be done. That's a HARD concept for many people to grasp.

WHAT! You mean I can't just buy all the same stuff as you and get the exact same speed!?!? WTH!

I've actually reached the point myself that when someone asks "what prop do you have on that?" and I hesitate. Not because I don't want to share but because I know what I did to it and I don't know why someone is asking. The prop that I butchered and run loose as a goose on what ever boat might not translate to someone running a wet/hoppy/turn heavy/etc/etc setup. They throw the same prop on their boat and fr'shizzle.

I know everyone rips the Fine's but many moons ago at a Cup Chris pulled me aside to let me know he was going to cheat in Q offshore. Think it was Q....... He wanted to make sure we caught him. It was the first time we'd seen Lipo raced. No rumors that time. That was just flat out true.

I hate the rumor mill. The internet has made it even easier to spread lies and paranoia. The conspiracy theories wear me out.

[raptor347]

OR we just eliminate P-LTD from record eligibility.

We discussed doing it that way when the original rules were proposed, but some felt that not allowing records wouldn't be right/fair (can't remember the wording). I still think making them eligible was a mistake from the beginning.

And I agree with Terry, I'd support that change. Clean the slate, erase the records and move on. Disallow records for 1/10 scale also since the power is a subgroup of p-ltd motors. I think I hold eight of those p-ltd/10th records and I'll be the first to toast their demise.

Less drama for those that run/tech at the time trials.

[raptor347]

Terry,
I know how you feel. When was the last time I recommended a prop online?
That's right, 65mph stock UL-1 with a prop change at the SAWs. What do they do; try to run the same prop for 5 min and burn up a bunch of parts.

I got a LOT of nasty pm's for that! How dare I tell people what I ran, I should have more sense than that.

[Darin Jordan]

I've actually reached the point myself that when someone asks "what prop do you have on that?" and I hesitate.

I don't hesitate at all any more... I simply don't answer that question. It's safer that way.

We discussed doing it that way when the original rules were proposed, but some felt that not allowing records wouldn't be right/fair (can't remember the wording). I still think making them eligible was a mistake from the beginning.

Yes, me too...

And I agree with Terry, I'd support that change. Clean the slate, erase the records and move on. Disallow records for 1/10 scale also since the power is a subgroup of p-ltd motors. I think I hold eight of those p-ltd/10th records and I'll be the first to toast their demise.

Less drama for those that run/tech at the time trials.

Yup... I'd support it too, and I think I hold 2 of them.

BUT, what would they accuse us of cheating with then??

[T.S.Davis]

Terry,
When was the last time I recommended a prop online?

I noticed. I cringe on those occasions where you spill one. I once ran with a prop size you had posted. Didn't work for me. Wasn't a power/heat issue though. The boat I was running just didn't like the prop you found worked for your boat.

I recently ran a starting point prop size by Darin for an N2 boat. I'm already 3mm over his guess. The boat wont take any more blade so next I'll bust out the salad spoons until I find the sweet spot.

[T.S.Davis]

BUT, what would they accuse us of cheating with then??

No worries man. HV cells are showing up more and more. I figure we have about a year before they're the only cells. You can be accused of something with those.

[madmikepags]

I don't need to cheat, I'm the best

[properchopper]

"All that said, I can't think of anyone who holds a current SAW record for P-LTD that has, or frankly WOULD, cheat to get that record. Several have been drawn to participating in the SAW events BECAUSE of the P-LTD classes also. It would be a shame to reduce that participation again because of the paranoia of a few."

Thanks Darin. Exactly so for me.

I wouldn't know how to cheat even if I wanted to. Besides my friends from "up the coast" provide me with all the gofast inspiration I need.

AND

Frankly the LTD SAW class is in my affordable zone and allows me to participate. The next class up is a quantum leap dollar-wise for me and not do-able..

[Darin Jordan]

Frankly the LTD SAW class is in my affordable zone and allows me to participate. The next class up is a quantum leap dollar-wise for me and not do-able..

THAT is the part that makes me TRY to figure out ways to satisfy the nay-sayers as far as tech'ing goes so that people CAN participate. Not sure where the happy medium is.

[RandyatBBY]

I like the Idea of no records for P LTD. I really like the $49.00 Neu motor too. Proper Chopper is spot on for my interest, Running the P open class has stretched my budget a little and doing two open class's is too much. But I do run four P LTD's.

[Doug Smock]

I remember a record trial in Valdosta where Jerry Crowther broke the IMPBA Thunderboat SAW record. Jerry pulled the engine out and brought it over to my pits for inspection. (Stock Zenoah G26O PUM)
There was a racer there watching me and said "Man your tearing down JERRY CROWTHER'S engine"? I said yes it's the rule. He said "So you think he's cheating"? I said no. The inspection is to prove that he's not!
The inspection includes 12 measurements among other things. It is a royal pain in the butt. Especially when you have several of them at a RT.

The IMPBA N Stock and Super Stock classes are a pain as well. All of those motors are sent to the Nat. FE Dir. for inspection and use ROAR spec.

The P Limited class is a challenge no doubt!

I know your wheels are turning Darin, what are you thinking?

[T.S.Davis]

Not having records doesn't really cure the accusation station people. They'll still have in their collective holsters "you won race x,y,z because you used an illegal motor". Has to be tech-able to shut these people down.

Maybe I'm still sore over being accused in the past of corruption. The conspiracy theorists aren't interested in having any faith in their fellow man. They already believe the rules were written to appease specific racers. Believing that those checking the motors at any and all events are simply in on the cheat isn't a stretch for them.

Doug checked Crowther's motor. The book said he was supposed to. The true nut bags would just say Doug was in on keeping Crowther at the top. There's really no cure for these types. We probably all need to just accept that. Me especially.

[jaike5]

Don't be bummed Terry, every man has his price..... for you we all know two bags of gummy bears, and a bag of double bubble, and your bought and payed for.

Cheers, Jay.

[Doby]

I've bought Terry for even less...

[TRUCKPULL]

I've bought Terry for even less...

John
Your web site does not work any more??

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

I've bought Terry for even less...

Oh sure one doughnut and now you own me!? Yer not the boss of me.

[Darin Jordan]

Just got notification that the 36x50 TP motor I ordered is on the way.

Once it gets here I'll start testing on the motors I have here.

Hoping to get anot her Leopard or two and some SSS motors to try, but I'll proceed with what I have. That may establish some baseline parameters to help guide us.

[rayzerdesigns]

any updates

[raptor347]

We're hard at work prepping for the November SAWs at Legg. Probably not going to see a lot of effort on this until after the SAWs. Darin has more important things to do, breaking 80mph on 1 cell being the most important.

[Brushless55]

Hmmm... Doing some more searching...

Here is an interesting consideration from Neu that might fit.

It's 36mm x 57mm, 205g, 1850KV.

Will have to test to know:

http://neumotors.cartloom.com/shop/item/25324




Here is the description:

The 1410/2Y/SE is designed as a lower cost version of our popular 14XX series motors. It has a little smaller rotor diameter rotor but to makeup for that the stator is a bit longer. The Kv for this motor is 1850 with a no-load current of 1.4 amps. Weight is 205 grams. Diameter is 36.5mm and is 58mm in length. The output shaft is 5mm. We are offering a limited time special on these motors of $99. This motor is a good match for the MidiFan running 6 or 7S and drawing 60-80 amps with thrust in the 70-90oz range. The 1410/2Y also will make a prop plane move right along too with a 8x5 prop and a 3S battery it will draw 50 amps and with 7x7 prop 45 amps.

I have one of these motors in my possession
was trying to test it last month but did not get around to it yet
the motor is a little smaller for most coolers but the Proboat 1500kv one fit perfectly

[Brushless55]

Thank you for your hard work Darin! Several times I almost bought one of the NEU's but, balked. I'll test the SK3-1900kv motor I have.

----

The SK3 can't be taken apart unless people know more than me. I can still measure the rotor length and field length.

Turnigy SK3-1900kv

Rotor length 39.6mm

Winding length 46mm

4 poles

D wind

35.8mm Can OD

60mm exterior Length

This motor is packed with copper compared to an AQ 2030, 1800 or PB motors I've had.

This motor I did get to test in my JAE last month and felt as though it did not have the same power or speed as the AQ 1800kv motor

pictures are a pain to upload or I would post some

[ray schrauwen]

Nice test stand

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...alyser_v2.html

[properchopper]

Nice test stand

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...alyser_v2.html

Good find - me wants one. Hmmmm...

[Fluid]

Outrunner only unfortunately. And 5 kg of thrust restricts the power level for FE motors. A Neu 1521/1.5D on 4S will develop 5.5 kg at 200 amps. A Neu 1527/1Y on 6S produces 6.4 kg at 150 amps. Cool idea for smaller motors and lower cell counts.



.

[ray schrauwen]

yep... ah well...

[Darin Jordan]

Darin has more important things to do, breaking 80mph on 1 cell being the most important.

I have been putting my test platform to work a bit, in this regard... You know, just to verify that it's going to be up to the task...

I'm thinking that pulling 385-Amps for 5-6 Second pulls on my 1-Cell setup pretty much proves the stand will hold up.

Should hold up to the P-LTD stuff.

In that regard, I got word that there are a few more motor options coming my way. After we get back from the November SAW event in LA, I'll put a solid effort into some testing of these motors and will provide all the data.

[Brushless55]

I have a few



Much more copper