P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[rayzerdesigns]

if you don't think we could burn up a 40mm motor you are highly mistaken..people will puch limits of any motor approved no matter what size..i for one love the speed and challenge of getting it out of smaller motors and in the limited speed..yes I have p boats..i like the limited speed..yes its the biggest classes out there..why change that..look at the car side of rc..they have size..and turn limits for stock..and it is by far the most competitive and biggest class..yes people are always trying to get more..and end up burning up stuff..thats the fun part,,doing everything to get them working the best..its a lot easier to go fast in p..because of the power..in limited..u need your setup and everything else working in top tier to be quick..that is the aspect I love..i would rather work on my boat setups and everything else to have a quick boat..and stable..thats a challenge..not saying p power isn't..but way easy to over power a p setup..if you like the 40mm size..then y all means run p..as for myself..and the others that swarm this class we are trying to get a few motors to help keep the class going..enough of my rant..hope to see you at a race soon

[rayzerdesigns]

Mike does have a point. Do we need consider the new..er guy a little more here so he has a shot?

Currently there are two motors really (80% rule again). Proboat has none. They're all discontinued. Sure you could run a Himax and figure it our but a new guy?........not gonna happen. He doesn't have a bushel basket of props and couldn't modify one either. No offense to new guy.

So at the moment someone looking to get going chooses between the AQ2030 and the AQ1800. Two! Pretty easy pick'ns. Boat runs light maybe a 2030. Boat needs more blade in the water maybe the 1800. If we add 9 that gives them 11 and they have to figure it out. Right prop, right hull, right strut, shmooze it, rub, it caress it, put it on a pedestal next to your bed and dream about it. What ever your process is.

Can new guy do all that? I know we want both new guy and veteran to run together but new guy has a pretty steep learning curve and is emptying out his wallet along the way.

Maybe just two from each new manufacturer? IDK. Something similar to a 2030 and similar to an 1800 form each manufacturer. Thinking being that it's the same choice that we're already making......2030 or 1800. Just have to pick your manufacturer.

Thinking out loud here.

don't forget about the dynamite 1500..come out to az terry..i will show you why this motor is my new fave..in all my boats at nats

[rayzerdesigns]

I also agree with Terry's thought to only having the two from each being in the 1800 to 2030 range. I didn't want to say anything because I don't know if there are guys out there running 1500kv motors for a particular setup. I can say that I don't think there is a single person running a 1500 in MMEU. Most are running the 2030 and those running the 1800 either change over to the 2030 if the motor goes, or they are running the 1800 by choice. I personally run an 1800 in my River Cat/Apparition on an M545 and run a 2030 in everything else. Except my MMEU SV27 which is limited to the 1800 only.

well maybe that's an east coast thing..but I guarantee you my boats are not slow..3 nats wins..i exclusively use dynamite 1500 now..and I would challenge you or anyone in your club to try it..yes different props..but woohoo

[T.S.Davis]

Doesn't shock me Ray. I would think you could put a ton of blade in the water to pull all the way through the turn.

[dethow]

Darin, as I said much earlier in this thread... I should just not say anything and leave it up to those that know more then I on these subjects. And I assume you wrote this description of your involvement to convince me that you know best.

Dave, I was here when P-LIMITED was CONCEIVED. I helped write the rules. I know what the intent of the class was. Our club in 2007 ran the first "P-LIMITED" style spec class at the 2007 Nationals at Mirror Lake in Monroe, WA.

However, I REALLY hate to question you and REALLY don't want to dis-respect you in ANY way, but...

...allowing these high priced motors in limited class is more damaging then allowing cheap 40mm motors.

If YOUR choice (dimensional specs) of alterations to the rules/list creates a problem far worse then my suggestion, then why is my inexperienced voice that silly?

Where we are at...
1.) We add nine motors to the list and we still have supply issues. Or...
2.) We do dimensional specs and we have unbalance competition that makes so they guys with deepest pockets win.

You guys may think I'm crazy but I think I'm on to something.
Anyone can get a 120amp esc and we can find tons of 40mm motors from many sources. If the list only included TP, Leopard and SSS motors that are 40mm in size I could go online right now and buy those from multiple sources or even drive down the street to my local hobby store and get them.

And rayzerdesigns... I'm not saying that burned up motors will be eliminated totally. But with an esc limit added there will be a cap to the prop you can run and thus still leave tuning and driving skills as part of the equation. But if you have people running in the 50 to 55mph range they will be less likely to push limits of the motor and esc since the hull itself won't handle much more and will most likely flip with any further speed increases. You can't burn a motor or esc on a belly up boat and there's no point in pushing the speed limits to the point you will burn them up if you keep flipping over.

And I just don't get you guys throwing out all this... "we already have a class for that, P"
I'm sorry but why do "P" racers spend the big money on expensive motors and speedo if someone with an $80 4074 motor and $83 SK120a speedo can compete with them???

[Ken Haines]

well maybe that's an east coast thing..but I guarantee you my boats are not slow..3 nats wins..i exclusively use dynamite 1500 now..and I would challenge you or anyone in your club to try it..yes different props..but woohoo

Great news....now I have to buy an additional $500 worth of
Dynamite 1500's to make our 4 day trek to Washington next year,
and thousands in travel expenses just to race toy boats.....lol

[T.S.Davis]

Curiosity Dave.............how are you planning to tech the 120 amp esc's? By the sticker on the box? I've seen the green Castle Hydra Ice boxes that aren't Castle Ice Hydra speedo innards. How do you do it?

Another thing.........that solves nothing. So I have Schultze fabricate a custom 120 amp speedo. It will be under rated by half because they always were. Then what?

Speedo limits wont work.

[T.S.Davis]

Great news....now I have to buy an additional $500 worth of

bahaha Ken, I heard that Ray was swapping motors half way through each heat. He's that good.

Just wanted to see if I could make your head explode.

[Darin Jordan]

And I assume you wrote this description of your involvement to convince me that you know best.

Or, if you take things with the glass-half-full attitude, it might have been to assure you that I understand very clearly the intent and history and purpose of the class...


I'm seriously to the point here with this subject that I think I might adopt Ken's approach:

Run with what's on the list (or don't and go run other classes) until the motor supply is exhausted and let P-LTD die a natural, slow death...

NO set of "limited" rules is going to make everyone happy, and opening this one up to much larger, more powerful motors, seems entirely "UN-Limited" to me. It may equate on a strictly $$ sense, but then so does running Open P where you NEVER generally push your equipment as hard as we do in LTD i.e.: buy one quality motor vs. 3 spec motors a season. Running unrestricted motors and using ESCs as the limiting factor seems equally as dubious.

I'm going to leave this for you all to discuss. I will continue to tinker off-line to see what I can find regarding motor supply. That might mean looking down just a tad to 36x58 or 36x50 motors (which are closer to the current motors anyhow), to build an appropriate list. We we to simply use dimensional limits, these would have been legal anyhow. I'll post data as I have it.

[dethow]

What... what... what...

Light bulb just came on

Is it at all possible to consider having it both ways?
1.) P-Limited36 class which limits the motor to a specific list of 36mm and continued no esc limit. (maybe add the esc limit as well)
2.) P-Limited40 class which limits the motor to a specific list of 40mm and a 120amp esc limit.

This way clubs and national events continue to run the beloved P-Limited, and we add an alternative for clubs and national event to go to the next level of cost effective without spending the money that running full P takes.

This would also add a place for existing a future RTR with 40mm motors without throwing them in the fire of full P and put them up against guys what may have a couple thousand in their boat.

Mono and Cat Approximate speed and cost for each class:
P-Limited36 - 45 to 50mph boats at $300 to $500 investment to get in.
P-Limited40 - 50 to 55mph boats at $350 to $500 investment to get in.
Open-P - 55 to 65mph boats at $500 to $1000 investment to get in.

[dethow]

I'm seriously to the point here with this subject that I think I might adopt Ken's approach:

I am truly sorry Darin. I didn't mean to piss you off or aggravate you in any way.

[Darin Jordan]

I am truly sorry Darin. I didn't mean to piss you off or aggravate you in any way.

No worries... I don't easily get pissed off, and I'm not now. It's all good.

[dethow]

What... what... what...

Light bulb just came on

Is it at all possible to consider having it both ways?
1.) P-Limited36 class which limits the motor to a specific list of 36mm and continued no esc limit. (maybe add the esc limit as well)
2.) P-Limited40 class which limits the motor to a specific list of 40mm and a 120amp esc limit.

This way clubs and national events continue to run the beloved P-Limited, and we add an alternative for clubs and national event to go to the next level of cost effective without spending the money that running full P takes.

This would also add a place for existing a future RTR with 40mm motors without throwing them in the fire of full P and put them up against guys what may have a couple thousand in their boat.

Mono and Cat Approximate speed and cost for each class:
P-Limited36 - 45 to 50mph boats at $300 to $500 investment to get in.
P-Limited40 - 50 to 55mph boats at $350 to $500 investment to get in.
Open-P - 55 to 65mph boats at $500 to $1000 investment to get in.

I suspect this will probably lead to more people going the P-Limited40 route within a few years. But would allow for a much smoother transition to where this hobby may need to lead to keep membership numbers up.

As previously said. I don't see guys buying 50mph RTR boats, tuning them to 55mph and then turning around and dropping in a cheap/limited 36mm motor so they can race without having to spend the big bucks to race with the full P guys.

Comparison is in regards to taking my boats out to my mother's lakefront property for the weekend... not club racing.
I don't like the idea of spending time and money tuning my P-Limited race boat, only to have my %ss handed to me by my cousin (or whomever) that went and bought a RTR and put it on the water for the first time. That person isn't going to understand motor size and torque. All they will know is that they went and bought a boat that bets the one you have spent hours upon hours tuning. Same size boat... why is mine faster? Is all they will think.
You tell them about the motor and battery limits. And then tell them they won't have a place to race in the club unless they either slow their boat down or go spend as much you just spent on your entire boat so you can compete in Open-P. You know what they will say? Well... that sounds stupid.

So what could have been a potential new member turns into a friend/family member thinking you are wasting your time and money being involved in this club.

But with P-Limited36 AND P-Limited40 classes you can explain the differences and why you choose to run in P-Limited36. Followed by an invite to bring their boat As-Is to the next club race. Say they can borrow some 4S batteries and a larger prop so they can be competitive with the other P-Limited40 racers.
Bet they show and bet they join.

[dethow]

Curiosity Dave.............how are you planning to tech the 120 amp esc's? By the sticker on the box? I've seen the green Castle Hydra Ice boxes that aren't Castle Ice Hydra speedo innards. How do you do it?

Another thing.........that solves nothing. So I have Schultze fabricate a custom 120 amp speedo. It will be under rated by half because they always were. Then what?

Speedo limits wont work.

Okay... we have a specific list of speedos as well.

I wasn't aware people would use a simple limit to find a way to cheat the limit. I guess no different then people have Neu make them a custom wind or finding other ways (such a c/f can) to stay within weight limits if we went with dimensional specs on the 36mm motors.

And as far as someone using different innards and cheating... what is really stopping someone who knows motors from opening an AQ and customizing it to cheat?

[T.S.Davis]

?
1.) P-Limited36 class which limits the motor to a specific list of 36mm and continued no esc limit. (maybe add the esc limit as well)
2.) P-Limited40 class which limits the motor to a specific list of 40mm and a 120amp esc limit.

If you look at a satellite image of earth there's a black hole where Wisconsin used to be. They freaked when we included cat in limited. Two sets of limited?.....

Still no way to verify a 120 amp esc is 120 amps.

[Doug Smock]

The door is open........... just look away Doug. There you go.......... Good boy.

[zooma]

What... what... what...

snip, snip ....................................

Mono and Cat Approximate speed and cost for each class:
P-Limited36 - 45 to 50mph boats at $300 to $500 investment to get in.
P-Limited40 - 50 to 55mph boats at $350 to $500 investment to get in.
Open-P - 55 to 65mph boats at $500 to $1000 investment to get in.

I started a new thread to ask about tuning for speed, but are these realistic speeds among regular racers? They are about 10-15 MPH higher than I and my club members are getting.

[rayzerdesigns]

ok guys..and gals..p limited is where it is..if we cant decide to stay within the limits of where we are..then why even try..i like the ideas of a couple motors..no..not 40mm..p limited does not need to be any faster..if you don't like the class or want to change it..why are you here trying to make your own set of rules?? this started last year..i wont state names..but he went his own direction..and that did nothing but decline racing..and if you truly want to know..im ok with current selection..a lot aren't so we are discussing a bigger motor..plain and simple..we are trying to find a few motors that are comparable to what is approved now..not faster or bigger..period..and im not trying to single you out dethow..but this is what we are trying to figure out..will p limited die off..maybe..but there are many boats and people that love this class the way it is..if you don't...don't race it..again..there has been some testing of petersons tp motor he wanted so bad..but I will tell you right now that motor is way faster than a 2030..prop to prop..boat to boat..not to mention you can prop it up..we either need to keep the current list..or add a few more that are of equal performance..period..or like darin said..leave it as it is..we are trying to be proactive in new motors..not trying to make class faster and have to many restrictions..being prop..speedo or whatever..again I will say I like the idea of tuning props and setups to get the most out of my limted boats..maybe we need to just see on here who wants to keep list the way it is..or add a few comparable ones..from sound of this thread..its to include a coule more motors..not faster...but comparable..and that can be done with testing..and seeing where it goes

[rayzerdesigns]

I started a new thread to ask about tuning for speed, but are these realistic speeds among regular racers? They are about 10-15 MPH higher than I and my club members are getting.

again not trying to bust your balls..but if your club is only getting 30 to 45mph out of limited as you say..i say you need to check your setups..i have seen terrys boats above 45 easy..my slowest limited boat is my mono..and its easily over 45mph..i have seen many lsh almost 60mphmid to upper 50s easily..even at nats this year..with sticky hot water, propped down quite a bit..and were still in 50s in lsh..and cat was right at 50..mono was prob right around 42 44..thats down 3mm prop size from what we run in heat in az..im really looking fwd to nats next year in nice cool water in washington

[rayzerdesigns]

Great news....now I have to buy an additional $500 worth of
Dynamite 1500's to make our 4 day trek to Washington next year,
and thousands in travel expenses just to race toy boats.....lol

better get them before I buy them all up..lol..but darin did say they are still making them..and good thing they are on average 25 to 30 dollars cheaper than a 2030

[ron1950]

I have four extra dynamite 1500's guess I better get a few more before Ken puts in a order lol....

[rayzerdesigns]

lol..its all good..they are still being made as of now

[ray schrauwen]

I've asked the question multiple times in this thread and no one has answered me yet. WHERE DOES ONE FIND THESE? Other then the TP 1950 I can't find any of the other 8 suggested on OSE, Kintec, RC Boat Bitz, eBay or Amazon.

YOU may be able to buy ANY of these, but where do I buy them. I'm not a TFL dealer and I don't have any special connections to manufactures.

As I said before... what does it really say about these motors that no one even sells them? Means no one wants them. Means they are NOT the industry standard.

??SSS Motor? Maybe:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...or_870mm_.html
I think it is but, Monika would have to confirm

[Darin Jordan]

.but darin did say they are still making them..

Well... to be accurate... Darin said that Horizon Hobby said... It's all a matter of sales numbers.

[Doby]

Dave:

There is no shortage of the "new" motors on the list. The "list" is just a discussion that you seem to be taking as gospel for some reason...for gods sake, it still has to go through whatever formal channels and that will take a while.......long while once and if Darin (or whoever) chooses to move forward with it.

I think you need to concentrate on P and step away from the spec classes..

Most of your comments in this thread should be moved to a separate P power thread, they are very argumentative.

This thread is about a certain size motor only....again, move on with the topic or start a new thread to voice you opinions about P classes.

[dethow]

Dave:

There is no shortage of the "new" motors on the list. The "list" is just a discussion that you seem to be taking as gospel for some reason...for gods sake, it still has to go through whatever formal channels and that will take a while.......long while once and if Darin (or whoever) chooses to move forward with it.

I think you need to concentrate on P and step away from the spec classes..

Most of your comments in this thread should be moved to a separate P power thread, they are very argumentative.

This thread is about a certain size motor only....again, move on with the topic or start a new thread to voice you opinions about P classes.

I'm sorry that you think I'm being argumentative. I'm not trying to be. I felt that I was bringing up valid points as to why the current proposed changes will not continue the existing nor help the future of P-Limited.

There's been multiple responses on this thread that describe several of the possible motors being vastly superior to the existing ones.
And there IS a shortage of the "new" motors on the list. The only ones I can actually go buy are the TPs. Even Darin admits that with the current 3 new brand additions we're looking at a single source supplier.

So I guess the only resolution to this discussion is to leave things the way they are and not try to come up with meaningful alternatives? It seems that most don't want anything to change and don't want anything added to the list that's not similar to the existing.

Based on what I've read and seen that's impossible. Basically anything added will be an improvement on the existing. That's how technology works. New motors are going to better then stuff developed and unchanged over the past 5 years.

And last... all of my comments in this thread are in regards to P-Limited motor choices and sizes. How does my discussion of changing the motor size for P-Limited from 36mm to 40mm belong in a P class discussion? This subject has nothing to due with P class and I'd appreciate if some would stop trying to chase me off from running P-Limited just because I don't agree with continuing a flawed system of rules and motors.

And if its not flawed then why are we even having this discussion. Leave the perfect oiled system of P-Limited alone. I'm fine with that and I'm happy to run in P-Limited.

But if we are going to make a change that will ultimately eliminate the use of the existing motors... then why don't we just go ahead and jump to the next level all together. NOT "P" but still a cost effective and limited "P". Or as I said in my last thought before you blasted me for being off topic. Maybe we just keep P-Limited the way it is but develop a new class between current P-Limited and Open P to help make a transition if the current motors do dry up and so we have a place for future RTR boats to run without have to be thrown in an Open P class.

[Darin Jordan]

The "flawed system " comments and the like are why Doby may be suggesting the argumentative part.

Moving back to the topic and focusing on maintaining CURRENT levels of performance. ...

I reexamined this subject a bit, and also received an email or six, and took another look at our currently legal motors.

From a specs standpoint, they are much, much closer to a 36x50 motor than a 36x60 motor. Dimensionally and weight wise.

The inclusion of Doug's TP 3660 1950 motor is what blew the size and weight up, as we tried to match THAT motor. That's perhaps not the correct tact.

Sourcing 36x50 motors appears to be much easier initially. Right here on OSE two of the 3 Leopard motors appear to be stocked.

Likewise, TP sells that size as well.

Hmmmmmm....

[dethow]

The "flawed system " comments and the like are why Doby may be suggesting the argumentative part.

Problem is that I didn't say "flawed system" until after I was already accused of being argumentative.
And how about being told by several to just not race if I don't like P-Limited. And told be several to take my 40mm motor talk to a "P" class discussion.

My opinions on P-Limited motors have nothing to do with Open-P class, but I'm the one being argumentative???

[dethow]

I reexamined this subject a bit, and also received an email or six, and took another look at our currently legal motors.

From a specs standpoint, they are much, much closer to a 36x50 motor than a 36x60 motor. Dimensionally and weight wise.

The inclusion of Doug's TP 3660 1950 motor is what blew the size and weight up, as we tried to match THAT motor. That's perhaps not the correct tact.

Alright... back on topic.

Why are we SOOOO worried about matching up to old technology of 5 year old motors? Seems that this motion is just as flawed as attempting to match or keep up with RTR.

I'm just getting frustrated because the goal here should be to make an improvement, not stay stagnant.

We started with a dimensional spec idea which would have allowed Neu, Lehner and Typhoon into the mix. (Darin's idea which is an improvement on existing)
Then we reduce to a defined list of some specific motors which included TP3630. (Doug's idea which is still an improvement on existing)
Now were looking at going down to 36x50 to keep as close to existing as possible. (Because several want no change and thus no improvement)

Why are we bending over back-wards to stick with these outdated motors?

[DPeterson]

rayzor

testing of petersons tp motor he wanted so bad..but I will tell you right now that motor is way faster than a 2030..prop to prop..boat to boat..not to mention you can prop it up..

Ray - you keep saying this. Do you have some data you could post. This conflicts with our WI. data, conflicts with what QuiteLee reported on post 177 and again with what Greg Schweers had found and posted. Again the TP is not my motor. It was an option we found to work and kept P-Limited alive in IMPBA D4 for 2015. Otherwise the 2030 killed racing in our parts.

Here again is the WI data:

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...268#post595268