P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[raptor347]

Hey, are the Typhoon motors easier to find?

Terry,

I'm going way off topic for one post.

The Typhoon motors are very easy to get, www.highendrc.com. Best shipping and customer service short of OSE.

The reason I recommended they be removed from the list is I know what they are capable of. I've run 114mph with a 650-58 series motor on 4 cells. 3400W burst, no problem. I love the reliability, they are every bit as capable as the first generation Neu motors. They are not even close to on par with the rest of the motors being considered.

Now if you're looking for Neu like performance on a budget, there is no better bang for the buck. True P-T motors for $130-$170. An HET 700-83-1445 and a Seaking 180, $270 Q setup that goes very well. Here's the budget option for those who want to get into the open motor classes and not give up performance.

My .02

[GixerGuy1978]

I having a problem seeing how a change from a current P-limited 36mm motor to a 40mm motor would cost anyone $500 to $1000 to change. (or were you saying $500 to $1000 to change ALL 8 to 12 boats?)

The motor itself would cost $80 to $90 and if needing to upgrade from an AQ 60amp, a new SK180 costs $120. So we're at a $200 investment. For those that need to make a change from 0.150 to 0.187 shafts... another $100 tops for stinger or strut (if necessary), stuffing tube, flex and collet. So we at $90 to $200 to $300 investment per boat.
At MI Cup I took my Pursuit with a SK180 and swapped out my AQ2030 for a $75 Leopard 3674 2200kv with an X642 prop. Boat was running just under 55mph and I did okay in P-Offshore. At the back of the pack, but I was happy to be racing at an increased speed.

As far as why have 40mm motors in a limited class??? Because that is basically just open P???
I don't think someone running a $80 to $90 motor on a $120 esc is going to be able to compete with someone having a $250+ Neu motor and $250+ speedo that allows them to prop up much larger and thus go faster.

And the answer there may be to limit both the motor and esc if we go to 40mm motors so that things are affordable with even competition. Another benefit of limiting the esc for limited class is that those still running 0.150 shafts probably wouldn't need to upgrade since there wouldn't be that outrageous of a load increase.

Just limit the motor list to six to nine 40mm choices and cap the esc at 180amp. Any brand esc just not over 180amp. Maybe even a 120 amp limit (which would decrease upgrade expenses by another $35). That way people could bring a new IM31 and only need to change out an $80 motor assuming that ProBoat motor wouldn't be in the list.



Sorry if I'm off base and missing the point here. But it just seems that a continuation down this road of 36mm P-limited is just going to die a slow death and we'll be left with nothing but people that want to put the time and money in to open P.
Yes... there WILL be less of a speed gap between P-Limited and Open P. BUT... costs of motor/esc in P-Limited ($150-$200) will be drastically less then Open P ($500-$600) and we'll hold people's interest in the class because these P-Limited boats won't be running slower then off the shelve stuff coming out.

And if members have a problem with the change, why can't we just expect the local clubs to start running specific spec classes that are necessary in their area? You know much like the expectation that it should be up to local clubs to keep up with the RTR models coming out.
In other words... we are going to loose future new members because we refuse to have a cost effective class that runs as fast as their RTR boat? All over some people wanting to still run outdated slow boats/motors when they could still run those in their local club if they want to.

With a 40mm upgrade and limited esc, we're not stopping people from continuing to run their current boats at their local clubs. But if we don't upgrade we are leading P-Limited to a slow death. Once existing people start switching to Open P, no one will step back to a P-Limited class that was upgraded to late. Thus clubs will start running Open P only, leaving a cost effective class a mere memory.

So in the end, just propose what you're going to propose. Really doesn't matter because this class will be dead in 3 to 5 years with or without these additional 36mm motors. IMO...

I feel your kinda missing the whole other side of the story that we've been talking about all along. What your suggesting (to me...somewhat newbie that belongs to a solely P-Ltd club) equates to huge expenses, in the end, for everyone involved in P-Ltd. I for one definately don't see the limited class 'dying a slow death' as you put it. There is currently WAAAAY too many people involved in this area to consider them/us eventually all go your route.

Darin; I do feel (personally) that the motor list MIGHT be getting too long......but I continue to follow. I'm sure once we find a result, there will be much testing for parity.....

just my thoughts.....

[Darin Jordan]

Darin; I do feel (personally) that the motor list MIGHT be getting too long......but I continue to follow. I'm sure once we find a result, there will be much testing for parity.....

just my thoughts.....

Please keep in mind that we're just bantering about motors. No list has been set. Just trying to flush out options to consider to meet the concerns of those wondering about availability.

[dethow]

Guys, can we PLEASE stop even considering 40mm plus motors? Those of us who REALLY DO know about how this stuff works KNOW that this would blow the current performance parameters of the class completely up. Can you PLEASE just take our word for it?

Okay, I'll shut up about it. After one last point...

I'm sorry I don't understand why everyone should go spend $80-$100 to upgrade to a different 36mm motor that they are just going to burn up trying to get close to 50mph (in mono and cat). When that same amount of money could be spent on a better 40mm motor. Limit the motor list to cheaper/cost effective choices and add a 120amp limit to the esc and we have the future of limited class that has distinctive limiting factors compared to Open-P.

What your suggesting (to me...somewhat newbie that belongs to a solely P-Ltd club) equates to huge expenses, in the end, for everyone involved in P-Ltd.

The 40mm motor costs are about the same and a SK120 is actually $2 cheaper then a new AQ60amp (according to OSE prices). Besides the future savings because people are not burning there $hit up as often. This is not a cost issue as far as I'm concerned. The only point to keeping the current limited motors is so that the existing guys with 5 to 10 years experience can continue to run their boats 5 mph faster then newbies because they know how to tune a boat without burning up motors and speedos. Meanwhile we get a new guy on the pond and after the second motor or esc burn-up they just stop showing up because this inexpensive limited class just got costly real fast.

My biggest point of this suggestion is to help stop the amount of motor burn-ups and actually save money for all of us. At our last MMEU race we had two experience guys burn a motor and I burned two. One of mine went because I lowered the strut on my pursuit not understanding that was going to lower the bow and increase load. The other was in my UL-1 because it took a noise dive on take off, stayed open throttle with loose of signal, submarined to the bottom, got the prop wrapped in weeds which burned my motor and broke the flex shaft.

How is the limited class cost effective, if newbies are spending $$$ replacing motors and speedos all the time in an effort to keep up with more experienced guys who also burn stuff up sometimes?

And that is all I'll say on the subject. I guess we'll come back to this in a few more years when people get bored of running slower then RTR boats and sick of spending $$$ burning 36mm motors all the time when they could just go buy a 40mm for the same money.

[ray schrauwen]

.............

[Darin Jordan]

Limit the motor list to cheaper/cost effective choices and add a 120amp limit to the esc and we have the future of limited class that has distinctive limiting factors compared to Open-P.

This is a false predicted result. I race one of these motors in "Open-P"... I can assure you that it's NOT a "limiting factor"...

I'm going to stop discussing larger motors by simply saying this... There is a REASON why Nitro doesn't allow 7.5cc (.45) motors in the 3.5cc (.21) class...

There is already a class for these "Open" sized motors.

[Darin Jordan]

.............

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, it's a tremendous expense for some. I have 8 to 12 boats to retool if I want to keep up with the 40mm guys. To make it worse, I would have at least 5 boats that can't run that much power. So I would have to start over on those. It's not all about the motor speedo "replacement" cost. Transfer that expense into say a club with 25 or 30 racers whose boats are not going to work on that much go juice. Suddenly a club is looking to rebuild (conservative) 40 boats to deal with more power.

I'll do what ever the rules say but there is no reason in my opinion to flush the setups of the most populated classes in FE history.

Also, burning motor after motor shouldn't happen. There's something wrong usually. Either a motor build glitch or a boat build glitch. This is where a club comes in to look at a setup to try and figure it. 3 of us looked at Benjos boat before we figured that sucker out.

[Darin Jordan]

To make it worse, I would have at least 5 boats that can't run that much power.

And, NOT RUNNING that much power is exactly the point of P-Limited. Always has been.

[T.S.Davis]

Hey, this discussion has taken on a brushed vs brushless quality.

"WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH ALL MY EXISTING CRAP!"

[Darin Jordan]

Hey, this discussion has taken on a brushed vs brushless quality.

"WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH ALL MY EXISTING CRAP!"

If we do this right (like using the motors on the currently drafted motor list... TP, Leopard, TFL or ???)... Then you'll continue to use them in some boats while you slowly replace them in others.

I would have NO ISSUES putting the PB Dynamite 1500KV up against any of these, in the right application.

[T.S.Davis]

And, NOT RUNNING that much power is exactly the point of P-Limited. Always has been.

Well, I could but they would explode on re-entry into earths atmosphere.

Somewhere in Shooters' New P sport thread there is a picture of what happens when you just throw more ponies in your paper machete LSH boat.

[T.S.Davis]

Darin, I meant that based on Dave's notion that we should just replace 36mm with 40mm since the market is creep'n that way.

You and I are on the "keep our brushed motors" er............36mm crap side this time.

What do I do with my old brushed setups if we go BL?
What do I do with my Nicd setups if we allow Nimh?
What do I do with my 700 motors if LSH goes to P limited?
What do I do with my Nimh setups if we all go LiPo?
What do I do with my 36mm boats if we go 40mm?

Never really ends with FE. I'm not saying we ditch our 36mm stuff but I am saying it's happened to us umpteen times. What Dave suggested isn't that nutty.

[dethow]

What Dave suggested isn't that nutty.

Thank you, Terry... I was feeling totally beat down.

I really do get all the points, but what you are eluding to is correct. Where would we be if we stopped progress...???

With a switch to 40mm we'd probably have more blow overs and less burnt motors/speedos until guys actually learn to bring their prop size down a little and/or learn how to self limit their throttle finger. In which case either method would result in far less burn-ups in efforts to push the P boats to their limits.

I feel new people would much prefer a chance at winning if they can learn how to not be up side down... over a chance of winning if they can spend the $$$ burning stuff up learning how to tune a boat.

Ummm... learn how to drive, or learn how to tune a boat? Learning to drive better costs nothing, while learning to build/tune a boat can cost a lot.

Open-P is the class for tuning, not P-Limited. The way things are P-Limited takes more tuning then open. Makes no sense to me.

[Darin Jordan]

What Dave suggested isn't that nutty.

See any Brushed Motors or NiMH these days?

36mm x 60mm motors are a standard size across the industry. We're not talking about a dieing technology here. RTRs don't define racing. Their power systems were convenient at the time.

We now have the formula. I say let's keep it.

You know me, I'm all about RTR boats (You won't BELIEVE what Pro Boat sent me THIS week!! ), but their inclusion in the race day needs to be handled at the club level.

Imagine, if you will, if we had pushed to have a NATIONAL class for Spec-SV27? Where would that be today??

[Darin Jordan]

Open-P is the class for tuning, not P-Limited. The way things are P-Limited takes more tuning then open. Makes no sense to me.

All classes have to be tuned for. It's just life when you are racing. 40mm motors (.45 vs. .21s) just mean you get to do it 10mph faster.

[dethow]

36mm x 60mm motors are a standard size across the industry. We're not talking about a dieing technology here.

Then why is only one of the suggested 36mm motor additions actually currently available to purchase? But yet I can go buy anything I want in a 4074 in multiple brands from multiple sources.

And.... RTR is already starting to make the leap to 40mm as well. The industry standard is/has changed.... but I guess we should just stick with brushed motors because that what everyone already has.

[Darin Jordan]

Then why is only one of the suggested 36mm motor additions actually currently available to purchase? But yet I can go buy anything I want in a 4074 in multiple brands from multiple sources.

You can go buy your 4074, just like I can go buy ANY of the other 9 motors being suggested to add to the existing list.

You are trying to change the performance envelope of this VERY successful class structure. I'm working to keep it the same, and also trying NOT to destroy the investments of those who have sustained this class for 5+ years.

We are likely at an impasse on this topic... You'll never convince me that pushing the performance of this class 10mph+ faster is ever going to make any sense.

[dethow]

See any Brushed Motors or NiMH these days?

YES... I could actually go buy those easier then majority (8 out of 9) of the new 36mm motors suggested.

[dethow]

You can go buy your 4074, just like I can go buy ANY of the other 9 motors being suggested to add to the existing list.

I've asked the question multiple times in this thread and no one has answered me yet. WHERE DOES ONE FIND THESE? Other then the TP 1950 I can't find any of the other 8 suggested on OSE, Kintec, RC Boat Bitz, eBay or Amazon.

YOU may be able to buy ANY of these, but where do I buy them. I'm not a TFL dealer and I don't have any special connections to manufactures.

As I said before... what does it really say about these motors that no one even sells them? Means no one wants them. Means they are NOT the industry standard.

[Darin Jordan]

And.... RTR is already starting to make the leap to 40mm as well. The industry standard is/has changed.... but I guess we should just stick with brushed motors because that what everyone already has.

Dave, I was here when P-LIMITED was CONCEIVED. I helped write the rules. I know what the intent of the class was. Our club in 2007 ran the first "P-LIMITED" style spec class at the 2007 Nationals at Mirror Lake in Monroe, WA.

P-LIMITED was NOT a class designed to be all inclusive of any RTR that might come along. The selection of THOSE motors on that list currently was done because it was CONVENIENT, and didn't require that we actually sit down and figure out what the rules for motor limits might be. They were also selected because the defined a PERFORMANCE LIMIT for the class. We didn't want "P" speeds out of these things. And, conveniently at the time, since we selected THEIR motors, the current batch of RTRs happened to fit as well. A few follow-on RTRs even got designed to specifically be able to fit into the class (hmmmm.... I wonder whose idea that was???)

I'm sorry you are feeling beaten up. That's not my intent. However, it doesn't seem like you are understanding that what YOU are talking about is taking a class that basically has similar to "N2" speeds, without the amp draw or expense of N2, and trying to turn that into an ALMOST (if not MOST) "P" class. And for WHAT? So ONE RTR boat (IM31 currently) can be squeezed into the class??

That just doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's the spirit of the class. The class is "LIMITED P"... 4S, but slower/less powerful.

[Darin Jordan]

I've asked the question multiple times in this thread and no one has answered me yet. WHERE DOES ONE FIND THESE? Other then the TP 1950 I can't find any of the other 8 suggested on OSE, Kintec, RC Boat Bitz, eBay or Amazon.

YOU may be able to buy ANY of these, but where do I buy them. I'm not a TFL dealer and I don't have any special connections to manufactures.

As I said before... what does it really say about these motors that no one even sells them? Means no one wants them. Means they are NOT the industry standard.

First off, the limited "list" of motors wasn't my idea. YOU are one of the several who clamoured to "make it easier" on everyone and just give a list. If it were up to me, I'd have defined a set of INDUSTRY STANDARD dimensions (yes, 36x60 IS a VERY popular motor size... ) and left it at that.

If you want a TP motor, you simply go here: http://www.tppowerusa.com/motors/bui...series/tp-3630, select the wind you want, and in 2-weeks you'll have it. All for $85.00.

Steven has already said he was working on the Leopard motors, and he is likely to have the TFL motors as well.

Turnigy may be an option as well. I've asked here, but haven't really gotten any response from people.

The point is that these motors ARE available. If you just wanted to be able to get a motor ANYWHERE, then you'd have let me just leave this at the dimensional specs and let the racers find their motors. That wasn't what people wanted.

The VERY SAME ISSUES are going to exist if you tried to define the list for several manufacturers of 40mm motors... Same brands, different sizes.

The Motors on the proposed list are from manufacturers that supply a lot of product. They're likely to be around, in other words. Not everything is always in stock, however. Sometimes there has to be demand.

At least with two of these three manufacturers, getting the motors is simply a matter of ordering them.

[dethow]

However, it doesn't seem like you are understanding that what YOU are talking about is taking a class that basically has similar to "N2" speeds, without the amp draw or expense of N2, and trying to turn that into an ALMOST (if not MOST) "P" class. And for WHAT? So ONE RTR boat (IM31 currently) can be squeezed into the class??

That is not my intension at all. My intention is to move to the next step in this hobby and stop burning up motors. Which is probably why RTR boats are leaving 36mm motors in history for P sized boats. They are sick of warranting and paying for under sized motors, just as we should be.

As far as RTR being able to be squeezed into the class. That's just an extra benefit. much like it was when P-Limited rules where originally written.

And my thought is not to have P-Limited be similar to Open-P. If we limit the ESC to 120 amp, then the prop sizes will self limit (just as they do now) and the P-Limited boats will not be capable of reaching the Open-P speeds.
IOW... if people want to push prop size (the way they do now) they will burn up an $83 speedo instead of an $80 motor.

[Darin Jordan]

That is not my intension at all. My intention is to move to the next step in this hobby and stop burning up motors. Which is probably why RTR boats are leaving 36mm motors in history for P sized boats. They are sick of warranting and paying for under sized motors, just as we should be.

Being just a LITTLE bit involved in the RTR industry, I can assure you that they are NOT moving on for that reason... they are moving on because they want their 40mph boats to be able to easily do 50mph out of the box.

It's performance based.

[Doby]

Dave..let it go...if people continue to burn up motors of the "limited" (AQ/TP/whatever) size, they need to look into the mirror to see why that is.

This class is by far the most popular (fun) of any..be it mono/hydro/cat/ lawnchair...whatever...having lots of boats racing at "slower" speeds is a lot more fun than fewer boats at faster speeds.

[Doby]

Being just a LITTLE bit involved in the RTR industry, I can assure you that they are NOT moving on for that reason... they are moving on because they want their 40mph boats to be able to easily do 50mph out of the box.

It's performance based.

Exactly. Just like Apple introducing a new phone every 3 weeks for the minions to buy because it has some new feature that somehow people lived without for years....

People want faster and shinier RTRs to brag about to their beer drinking buddies....how many people who buy RTRs actually race them?? Proboat and AQ care about profits...can't blame them, everyone does.

[dethow]

The point is that these motors ARE available.

Correction... these motor WILL BE available (because we ask for them).

Not available NOW (because no one wants them).

And so our only two sources will be TP directly and OSE. Maybe Kintec will catch on and start stocking them as well.

I'm sorry I'm going to get out of this conversation. Because you've already made it clear you will NEVER be convinced otherwise and I tend to get the same impression from others. Like I said... I guess we'll have this conversation in a couple years. Probably about the same time this new list is implemented (2017) it will become more obvious to everyone that 36mm motors are as old school as brushed motors.

There are other ways to limit the class....

[Darin Jordan]

I'll give Dave this, however, concerning motor availability:

The TP motors, thus far, are clearly the most readily available.

This is why I wanted to leave specific motors out, and just define a dimensional limitation of up to, and including, 36x60mm... Lots of readily available motors in the 36x50, or 36x58, or even 28x58, etc... sizes... that would be well within the performance envelope of this class.

Whatever gets "spec'd", we have to make sure that people can ACTUALLY get them.

OR, we limit it to those that we actually can, in this case, TP... which puts us right back to a single thread supply.

[dethow]

And back on topic of the list and leaving the 40mm stuff in the past...


Darin, I too originally liked your dimensional limitations. But those parameters would open the door for a few Neu, Lehner and Typhoon motors.

Selfishly, I thought "great I'll go buy a $200 Neu motor and be able to run at 50mph (in my mono and cat) with little to no risk of burning it up."

But that door opening will just have guys pushing the limits of THOSE motors and hitting speeds close to 55mph which will force people to start spending big dollars on a motor or run 5 to 10 mph slower and non-competitive.

To twist the knife a little... allowing these high priced motors in limited class is more damaging then allowing cheap 40mm motors. Speeds of an expensive 36mm motor (with an unlimited esc) wouldn't be far off those of a cheap 40mm (with a 120a esc limit). But with the expensive 36mm motors you are cutting out the guys who can't spend $200 on a motor and $200 on a large amp esc to push it near 55mph.

Just saying... everyone can afford an $85 40mm motor and an $83 120amp speedo. And then everyone can do 50 to 55mph in P-Limited, while Open-P speeds will be in the 60 to 65 mph range where hull design, tuning and driving skills becomes more important to keep it on the water.

LOL... zipper has now been installed on my mouth. (Maybe )

[dethow]

Being just a LITTLE bit involved in the RTR industry, I can assure you that they are NOT moving on for that reason... they are moving on because they want their 40mph boats to be able to easily do 50mph out of the box.

It's performance based.

Sorry Darin... you say patato and I say pototo.

They want their 40mph RTR boats increased to 50mph because they (manufactures) are probably tied of us (racers) increasing prop sizes to get the 50mph we (racers) want and burning up motors in the process. Of which those motors are being sent back for warranty and thus costing them (manufactures) money. Cure... put a 40mm motor (that costs the same) in the boat and we (racers) won't burn them up as much trying to get to speeds that the hull is capable of handling.