Shocker First Maiden Run -- ESC Literally BLOWS through Hull

[dmitry100]

Um oops ... I kind of misread the link thinking it was CF cloth with adhesive... but would be interesting if someone had something like that though...

[dmitry100]

I think ideally it'd be something along the lines of >> https://www.acpsales.com/OnlineStore.php?cat=5467
I wonder if I would technically need to add any additional epoxy or anything to this...

[T.S.Davis]

I'm running a 1515 2200kv castle motor on 6s in my 26" cat. Runs like this with no issues, day in, day out.

You run this every day. That's great. This was your first build of course? 6s in a 26" boat. Good plan. I'm sure she turns on a dime.

This is the kind of info that I'm talking about. A guy reading this thread that is looking to get into boats is going to think...............some guy said I could run 2200kv on 6s easy.......and go real fast too.......... I'll just do what he did........ accept he doesn't know how that boat was built. He doesn't know how to even build a boat. He doesn't know anything yet.

It's exactly what led to the failure that inspired this thread.

The expensive equipment we've been through is due to mistakes we've made and learned from. It was an attempt to qualify our opinions. You know, let others benefit from the mistakes we've made. Blasphemy I know.

When looking for setup advice, each has to decide what parameters define an "expert". Do you take advice from accomplished racers with multiple national championships/records or do you take it from guys with some Youtube videos? A call each will have to make for themselves.

[dmitry100]

Just for the record... 6s was what this guy recommended. Tiny motors, 180 amps and 38mm props... Didn't even think twice about starting off with lower voltage. I think driveline could have been one of the issues-- as it was not spinning as freely as the other side was. Usually when you spin you could feel the magnets chiming... this side was not. Seemed like the flex was at a bit of an angle (not lining up as perfectly into the collet). It seemed to line up fine after I loosened up the motor mounts and would spin just as flawlessly as the other side would.

[Spartanator]

I guess it depends where you get your V3 from. I got mine from Falcon Sekido (something like that) and a few that have gotten theirs off EBay and HK have blown up. I would bet some QC testing plays a factor with the ESC smoke.
Anyways, good luck on the rebuild!

[kfxguy]

You run this every day. That's great. This was your first build of course? 6s in a 26" boat. Good plan. I'm sure she turns on a dime.

This is the kind of info that I'm talking about. A guy reading this thread that is looking to get into boats is going to think...............some guy said I could run 2200kv on 6s easy.......and go real fast too.......... I'll just do what he did........ accept he doesn't know how that boat was built. He doesn't know how to even build a boat. He doesn't know anything yet.

It's exactly what led to the failure that inspired this thread.

The expensive equipment we've been through is due to mistakes we've made and learned from. It was an attempt to qualify our opinions. You know, let others benefit from the mistakes we've made. Blasphemy I know.

When looking for setup advice, each has to decide what parameters define an "expert". Do you take advice from accomplished racers with multiple national championships/records or do you take it from guys with some Youtube videos? A call each will have to make for themselves.

Turning on a dime has something to do with kv choice? That's a new one by me. Please elaborate...

If someone sees my post and decides to just throw the same motor in a boat on 6s and let it eat without knowing what they are doing, that's on them. The first boat I built was a 32" Rivercat. It had a 1515 2200kv. Yes, I smoked the Esc in about 30 seconds. I had like a 45mm 3 blade prop on it. I learned on my own the hard way. I've come quite a long ways in 2 years, you know it, I know and pretty much everyone on here knows it. Can I set up a reliable 40k+ rpm boat? Absolutely. I've done I quite a few times. Will parts fail? Absolutely. I've seen parts fail for no reason and I've seen stuff that lasted and shouldn't have. We can agree to disagree. No problem. We are still boating brothers. We just do things differently. That's what makes it interesting.

Back to topic. I really don't think he was pulling over 150 amps with this setup. I think he simply had a defective controller. I had a seaking 120 do the same thing to me a few weeks ago on a mild setup. Put a new one in no changes and it's fine.

[Luck as a Constant]

You run this every day. That's great. This was your first build of course? 6s in a 26" boat. Good plan. I'm sure she turns on a dime.

This is the kind of info that I'm talking about. A guy reading this thread that is looking to get into boats is going to think...............some guy said I could run 2200kv on 6s easy.......and go real fast too.......... I'll just do what he did........ accept he doesn't know how that boat was built. He doesn't know how to even build a boat. He doesn't know anything yet.

It's exactly what led to the failure that inspired this thread.

The expensive equipment we've been through is due to mistakes we've made and learned from. It was an attempt to qualify our opinions. You know, let others benefit from the mistakes we've made. Blasphemy I know.

When looking for setup advice, each has to decide what parameters define an "expert". Do you take advice from accomplished racers with multiple national championships/records or do you take it from guys with some Youtube videos? A call each will have to make for themselves.

The question is...
How long is he running it?
1-2 passes or 3-4 minutes out there at wot.
Two different things


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[dmitry100]

2-3 minutes ... a few 10 feet passes at barely half throttle near the dock. I didn't punch it or anything as the throttle was pretty sensitive.

[T.S.Davis]

Turning on a dime has something to do with kv choice? That's a new one by me. Please elaborate...

Sorry, kv has nothing to do with turning on a dime. Although, high RPM will make the rear end swap out on you pretty hard. 6s in a 26" boat wont turn. Not well at least. Just like it didn't 12 years ago when I put 16 Nimh cells in a 22" cat. Straight was fast but no turns allowed. It's a weight to footprint thing.

But.......hey.....I could be wrong. Bring that up to MI. We'll race that 26" 6s boat in Q cat. Should be stellar against PAGS sprint cat. He's only running upper 60's. Although, turning on a dime is kind of his thing.

You've come a long way and we all know it? Wow, don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back. Sorry for not acknowledging your many accomplishments. I'll have to revisit the NAMBA and IMPBA records.

hahaha We've been reduced to the age old debate. The sporties telling the racers "you don't know what's what" and the racers saying "yeah, come show me".

Still toys.

If this burns up another speedo, who's paying for it?

[iop65]

reading more and more from Dmitry i can guess he hasn't got the knowledge or experience for this set up ,it's like an 18 year old buying a Ducati 1299 s and ending up glued to a tree

sorry Dmirti but if you can't run it full throttle : change something !

[srislash]

Just for the record... 6s was what this guy recommended. Tiny motors, 180 amps and 38mm props... Didn't even think twice about starting off with lower voltage. I think driveline could have been one of the issues-- as it was not spinning as freely as the other side was. Usually when you spin you could feel the magnets chiming... this side was not. Seemed like the flex was at a bit of an angle (not lining up as perfectly into the collet). It seemed to line up fine after I loosened up the motor mounts and would spin just as flawlessly as the other side would.

So it was running at the time of mishap with the binding on one side? That could create some heat for sure. But I read you may not be 100% confident in the water flow. This would drastically increase temps quickly and help cap failure.

[dmitry100]

iop65: lol gee thanks buddy except if you maybe guessed that I didn't build it-- if I had I would have taken extra precautions. Perhaps you can enlighten me on what you could have done any differently in this situation mr. ducati 1299
At the end of the day I have enough "knowledge" to figure out what the builder did wrong and to fix it... as I believe it was the driveline that contributed to this if you can read above. Flex wasn't aligning properly to the motor coillet. But I'm not sure how any of this would even compare to a ducati 1299 though. When I bought my M5 and 750 BMW's they didn't blow up on me after putting the recommended 91 octane gas into them and passing 15 mph... neither did I hit any trees. I usually have an expectation of a certain standard of quality when you pay a little extra for someone or a company to put it together for you where as it should never go BOOM after the first 2 minutes of use. But these components are Made in China after all. That's why I'd rather buy German from now on... they seem to have good stuff even when it comes to these boats it seems.

I just want a boat I could use everyday in between work breaks that is reliable and goes fast... so far I'm finding it to be quite an adrenaline rush and I don't have to be inside of a boat or a race car for it. I like the idea of having to build and program something myself and being able to run it-- it becomes a whole other level of fun.

[dmitry100]

srislash: Yep. Sounds like a combination of things gone bad... and ka-boom :) The builder was just in a hurry I could tell. Was even missing a bolt on the rudder.

[Ken Haines]

Hello Dmitry,
There has been a lot tension and stones thrown in this thread. I respect your questions here and think most of us do.
The last thing we need is to chase off a fairly new FE boater, or make him hesitate to ask questions.
The reason Terry and I posted our 6s on 1900kv comments was to help warn you that this is a risky set-up.
We understand that it was purchased that way so in no way is that a slight toward you personally. Those that have
taken cheap shots at you because of your questions....shame on them. I just like Terry once upon a time when I was a
relative beginner tried a 6s setup on a 2200kv motor. It was top of the line Neu 1527-1D in a 36" mono. This one on
a Schulze 40.160 (the good old version) German as they get Btw. These ESC's are recognized as the best of their time
and still considered the best by most top racers. The boat ran terrific for a minute or two. Fortunately I was running in
close quarters very near the shore. I probably never went over 30 mph in about a 100' area, but had some quick bursts.
Then the boat stopped, before I could get off the hatch tape off the $650 Schulze was on fire and was totally destroyed.
For a week or so I really wondered if this was a hobby that I could afford, but then I too reached out to guys like Terry Davis
and many other well known racers who had much more experience at the time. They were more than happy to share their
experience and advice. Hopefully you can weed through the differing opinions and at least try some of the conservative
thoughts / setups spoken about here first so that you will continue in this great hobby for a lifetime.
You may want to even try a PM or 2 to stay out of the firing line on some things.
Good luck with the Cat....from what you have written here so far it sounds like you will get this all worked out in the end.
Ken
Alias Fireball...

[tlandauer]

May I just echo that I have also learned so much from these people who have been racing for a long time and had their share of set backs. There is always a learning curve and for each of us it may be different, but nonetheless it takes time and experience to get to a specific goal that is again an individual calling. Anyway, my personal take on this hobby is that speed is not everything, (I know some people will snicker, but who cares?) for me it is the pleasure I get knowing that every component is working in harmony and I still have a margin to push if I so choose.
I wish you good luck on repairing the hull and get your set up working to your goal.

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[Luck as a Constant]

srislash: Yep. Sounds like a combination of things gone bad... and ka-boom :) The builder was just in a hurry I could tell. Was even missing a bolt on the rudder.

Yeah dude sounds like you've got the driveline free so I say go ahead give it another go. Short runs checking temps between.
Doesn't sound like your setup is wrong or anything.

As far as everyone's comments, you have to take stuff with a grain of salt. Different setups combined with different running styles equal different opinions.
Some guys run a couple of quick passes and that's it, some guys run flat out for 3-4 minutes. There's a huge difference in what your setup will handle based on that alone.


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[Spartanator]

As far as everyone's comments, you have to take stuff with a grain of salt. Different setups combined with different running styles equal different opinions.
Some guys run a couple of quick passes and that's it, some guys run flat out for 3-4 minutes. There's a huge difference in what your setup will handle based on that alone.


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As for my rather short RC record, I run flat out if able to.

[Luck as a Constant]

As for my rather short RC record, I run flat out if able to.

Well, as an example, because it's been discussed in here... A 2200kv motor running 6s flat out for 3-4 minutes is gonna be a tough one for a single setup.
I ran the castle 2200 on 5s for those runtimes, but that was pushing it imo.
However.. I've never tried 6s on that motor so I really couldn't say for sure.
Not something I would bother trying tho.


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[iridebikes247]

This boat should be able to take a beating, check and re check multiple times. This shocker will never EVER run like an oval boat, data logging alone will show you that. Large spikes followed by lulls, thats how it goes with SAW.

I can't comment on the new seaking im not sure if they burn easily or not. I can say the new sf220/300 is pretty good for the money.

I think buying a few batteries will be a good idea. You have 3s, so I'd get two 2s packs also, move up so long as escs/motors are identical in temp. Also check the soldering on the motors make sure the guy before you didn't do a bang up job.

[keithbradley]

Um oops ... I kind of misread the link thinking it was CF cloth with adhesive... but would be interesting if someone had something like that though...

This product does exist, it's called prepreg carbon fabric. I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner though, it's more for professional setups. It needs to be stored at low temps (walk in fridge style) and has a limited shelf life. It also requires an oven to cure, so not what you would want for an inlay.

[keithbradley]

I think driveline could have been one of the issues-- as it was not spinning as freely as the other side was. Usually when you spin you could feel the magnets chiming... this side was not. Seemed like the flex was at a bit of an angle (not lining up as perfectly into the collet). It seemed to line up fine after I loosened up the motor mounts and would spin just as flawlessly as the other side would.

Makes sense, but I wouldn't rule out other issues such as a damaged motor either.

1900kv on 6s shouldn't create a terribly high current draw with such small props. Typically, guys get into current trouble with (relatively) higher RPM setups because they prop them the same way they would prop a 30k RPM setup. Part of the reason you see so many twins with higher RPM setups is because they can generate enough thrust with smaller props to be efficient, where single motor setups need a bit more blade area to limit slip. Twins are not the free lunch everyone thinks they are though...they're not magically faster, and it still takes energy to spin a given prop at a given RPM; they definitely don't "split the load in half" as some say, not even close.
Regardless of current draw though, at that RPM it's certainly not uncommon to crack magnets or run into interference issues with Chinese 4 pole motors, so inspecting the motors isn't a bad idea.

In regards to cooling, I run twin SK-180s and twin motors in my Donzi mono. I have ONE water pickup on the rudder and series that line through all four components (2 ESCs, 2 motors). There are no Y-splitters or additional pickups; one inlet, one outlet. After running (a total of 6s 10,000mah down to 3.75-3.8v/cell, not just a quick pass or two), the lipos are the warmest thing in the boat. I'm not sure why other people are having issues with water cooling these ESCs, mine have all been quite easy to cool with ZERO modification. It is possible that my rudder pickup is vastly superior to what some other people are running, so take that into consideration, but it is still relevant info.

[IRON-PAWW]

Ok well - the photo's of the Seaking 180 v3 with the simple cooling mod. Hope that helps you a little. But Kieth is the man with the knowledge and experience. Most definitely, he's a bloke I listen to. :-)

[keithbradley]

Additional cooling can't hurt!

[IRON-PAWW]

Ain't that the truth!

[rearwheelin]

Makes sense, but I wouldn't rule out other issues such as a damaged motor either.

1900kv on 6s shouldn't create a terribly high current draw with such small props. Typically, guys get into current trouble with (relatively) higher RPM setups because they prop them the same way they would prop a 30k RPM setup. Part of the reason you see so many twins with higher RPM setups is because they can generate enough thrust with smaller props to be efficient, where single motor setups need a bit more blade area to limit slip. Twins are not the free lunch everyone thinks they are though...they're not magically faster, and it still takes energy to spin a given prop at a given RPM; they definitely don't "split the load in half" as some say, not even close.
Regardless of current draw though, at that RPM it's certainly not uncommon to crack magnets or run into interference issues with Chinese 4 pole motors, so inspecting the motors isn't a bad idea.

In regards to cooling, I run twin SK-180s and twin motors in my Donzi mono. I have ONE water pickup on the rudder and series that line through all four components (2 ESCs, 2 motors). There are no Y-splitters or additional pickups; one inlet, one outlet. After running (a total of 6s 10,000mah down to 3.75-3.8v/cell, not just a quick pass or two), the lipos are the warmest thing in the boat. I'm not sure why other people are having issues with water cooling these ESCs, mine have all been quite easy to cool with ZERO modification. It is possible that my rudder pickup is vastly superior to what some other people are running, so take that into consideration, but it is still relevant info.

The quad helped my cause . Ran 6s to 2200kv 1515 castles . You couldn't hurt it . Big 43" boat on 4s was 63 mph with marginally sharpens 447's. On 6s it was dumb fast and never burned anything up. The boat would accelerate so hard it would get to it's sweat spot in efficiency sooner.

I want to build a quad out of your big boat some day :)

[iop65]

iop65: lol gee thanks buddy except if you maybe guessed that I didn't build it-- if I had I would have taken extra precautions. Perhaps you can enlighten me on what you could have done any differently in this situation mr. ducati 1299
At the end of the day I have enough "knowledge" to figure out what the builder did wrong and to fix it... as I believe it was the driveline that contributed to this if you can read above. Flex wasn't aligning properly to the motor coillet. But I'm not sure how any of this would even compare to a ducati 1299 though. When I bought my M5 and 750 BMW's they didn't blow up on me after putting the recommended 91 octane gas into them and passing 15 mph... neither did I hit any trees. I usually have an expectation of a certain standard of quality when you pay a little extra for someone or a company to put it together for you where as it should never go BOOM after the first 2 minutes of use. But these components are Made in China after all. That's why I'd rather buy German from now on... they seem to have good stuff even when it comes to these boats it seems.

I just want a boat I could use everyday in between work breaks that is reliable and goes fast... so far I'm finding it to be quite an adrenaline rush and I don't have to be inside of a boat or a race car for it. I like the idea of having to build and program something myself and being able to run it-- it becomes a whole other level of fun.

"flex wasn't aligning properly into collet"?

look at picture nr 4 : it's a mistery to me how someone can get that type of motormount not connect to the driveline correclty , those things bolt right on the motor! you really got to put some serious effort into misaligning this

second : if there is really a flex in there ( and not piano wire), i would suggest changing that rather quickly because that style coupler for a flex with that power is not going to make your flex last for a very long time , the grubscrew will destroy it
buy some German coupler :mbp , h&m..
but they won't fit so you got some work ahead

these are things a guy would know when he started off driving a 250cc bike before jumping on a 1299s :-)))

and third suggestion ; your cooling intake , not to be trusted like i wrote yesterday

good luck

[Brushless55]

Make sure the timing is set correctly, I've seen some escs get smoking hot because of incorrect timing....not setup.

Escs burn but its usually user error (i've done it), maybe the timing was wrong. I would try out a 442 2 blade next time out btw. As for the whole rpm thing....1900kv on 6s is fine as long as the motor works properly. Have you seen others use this motor with good results? A 6 pole is def harder on stuff than a 4 pole but I don't think the margin is enough to push you into failure. This boat should have come back quite cool.

I've had that issue once

[dmitry100]

iop65: The flex actually has grooves for the grubs that would prevent it from slipping. The collet has a total of 3 grubs which I think would hold on the flex nicely. 1 grub on each side for just the flex. We'll see.

I'll describe a possible scenario-- which was probably how it went in this case:
Completely tightening the motor mounts before laying down the flex and then forcing the flex onto the angle of the collet causing resistance in the drive.

[iridebikes247]

Before the next time you run the boat I would pull both motors out and spin em up on the bench, also pull the face plates off and see if the wrap has loosened, burnt up, etc.

Burning 1 esc, whatever it happens. Burning 2 will get old real quick. As far as the flex goes check to see if it looks like its been hit with a torch, extreme heat build up will usually show on a flex.

[kevinpratt823]

I've been reading along, and my first instinct is a bad motor. Like he said(and a few others), turn them both by hand with nothing attached and see if one feels squishy. I think driveline binding would have to be pretty extreme(and therefore noticeable) to fail as quick as you're describing.