2015 NAMBA FE Proposals

[Doug Smock]

Captain's Log:

05-09-15

Doug Smock seemingly agrees with me...publicly

It must be something in the air. I agreed with Terry Davis either this week or last.

The end is near. lol

PS Sorry I had to delete two of your "Oh my"(s) to make room for a "laugh" and a "hide". lol

[D. Newland]

Both FE proposals passed and will be official once the rulebook is updated.

Please keep in mind that the only thing changed in the voltage proposal was to use ACTUAL voltage rather than NOMINAL voltage for the Power Parameter offerings. NAMBA still only recognizes 3.7 volts/cell nominal as a legal LiPo cell to race.

As mentioned in my OP and in the Propwash, this was not an HV proposal. I'm sure that will come at some point and the best way for it to happen is for clubs to adopt a procedure/guideline, test it, discuss it and see if it's a viable way for NAMBA to go.

[Darin Jordan]

So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??

[T.S.Davis]

So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??

In accordance with the proposal. If it can be rendered useless for the heats it's allowed. So no boats that are intended to self right.

In regards to the bullets outside the hull and risks of cheating etc. I hate when we have to have the "cheating" debate. Guys that will cheat will find a way to do it. Bullets outside the hull could be wired accordingly to give the voltage you want indicated. I could pull a tap wire. I could re-wrap a pack after altering the tap wiring inside the pack too. If I was that hell bent on cheating to win I would find a way. I'm not by the way.

I personally think an external test point should be allowed. Racers discretion. Contest directors can always go check the boat later to make sure there are no shenanigans going on. The risk of being caught fooling around should keep people honest.

On that note, to any reading that would cheat.......is it worth it? It's an age old discussion I know. YOU know you cheated. Plus, what if your caught? SAW guys and oval racers alike have a certain respect for one another. If you're caught cheating................nobody respects you ever again. Might as well quit racing. I think this is that trust that John was alluding to. There's a certain amount of trust and respect for your fellow racer required for this hobby to work. We ain't NASCAR. We can't spend days tech'ing the entries prior to race day. We're just a bunch of fools with toy boats that like to occasionally hang out together.

All that said........we do have a plan for this weeks cup race. Random checks. We'll have someone wondering the pits checking randomly. Fred is still on the fence about what the penalty will be for over voltage but he's leaning towards disqualification from that class entirely. At first he was talking your done for the weekend but I talked him down........usually it's the other way around. haha

Brings that question I posed back into view. "Is it worth it?" You get caught by your peers cheating. Not to me it isn't. I have some HV cells. I've been testing them to make sure that I wont screw up and get over the current legal limit due to heat or what ever. I'm not having an oops that would make my friends question my integrity.

Will this work? Not sure. We'll see.

For the record, I do see a future that includes HV cells. I mentioned this somewhere else. It will be a careful timing thing. Like BL motors were.

[Darin Jordan]

On that note, to any reading that would cheat.......is it worth it? It's an age old discussion I know. YOU know you cheated. Plus, what if your caught? SAW guys and oval racers alike have a certain respect for one another. If you're caught cheating................nobody respects you ever again. Might as well quit racing. I think this is that trust that John was alluding to. There's a certain amount of trust and respect for your fellow racer required for this hobby to work. We ain't NASCAR. We can't spend days tech'ing the entries prior to race day. We're just a bunch of fools with toy boats that like to occasionally hang out together.

We inspect every pack, every time, at the LA SAW event, and it goes very smoothly. Simple to do, and I think the racers appreciate KNOWING there isn't any funny business going on. Pretty hard to catch that stuff AFTER the fact.

We aren't "NASCAR", but I know that you, and MANY others, have HUGE amounts of time and money invested in this stuff. Let's play fair. Trust but verify. Especially when it's so simple to do.

[RaceMechaniX]

Just a suggestion on checking cells at a heat race:

Ask the racers "on deck" to bring their boats down to the "hot pits" without the cowls taped. Randomly check 1,2 or all of the boats time permitting and let them tape up.
I know many guys will have back to back heats and don't have time so this may not work, but perhaps a random spot check.

If a racer is found "over voltage", I would suggest a penalty proportionate to the amount over. Someone who is at 4.25V/cell is not as flagrant as someone charging to 4.35V/cell or higher.
A couple of throttle blips will bring a 4.25V/cell pack down to a legal voltage.

I am looking forward to hearing if something works out for the process.

TG

[T.S.Davis]

We had a hot pit for the nats and it was a bust. Nobody wants to do it. It is a pain in the behind. The most minor hiccup and you have no gear to fix it. If I know who is in the next heat and I've been charged with the responsibility of keeping people honest do I need to have everyone come down to a specific spot? It just seems like that is for the benefit of those observing the "check" more so than actual verification.

I know this, I'm simply not checking all 200 boats at the cup. Everyone racing having the knowledge that their boat may well be the next one I check should be enough of a deterrent to keep them from risking it. I would hope at least. This really means nothing as it's hearsay by definition but I've only heard tell of one instance of over voltage. Then I've only suspected it one other time. Both of those occasions were both on LV cells. One of those was the inspiration for the actual voltage limits as over-volting the LV cells is dangerous. Wasn't really illegal though at the time.

I know it might seem all cloak and dagger shady to have over-volted the LV cells but if you think back to the Nimh days we would go to great lengths to get that extra .01 volts into and then back out of the cells. We would pay someone to test a crate of cells. Then hand select the cells that delivers the highest voltage under load with similar IR's. Then "push" them to get just a tic extra. Just before a heat we crushed them on 8amps just to get them hot. Sometimes they would puke their guts out right on the charger. Sizzling pile of batteries coming through. Was it cheating or just trying to find that extra edge? Rules didn't call it cheating.

Racers looking for an edge and even taking a risk with safety isn't anything new. It's just that these cells are much more violent if they fail. None of us want to see anyone get hurt.

Flash back....................a T boat would run you $380 for a mere 4200 mah. And you had to assemble the danged packs yourself. bahaha Ran em until they dumped which pretty much wrecked the matching. Soooo stupid.

[Darin Jordan]

Terry,

I think you are completely underestimating how much of an advantage voltage is in P-LTD classes.... And these days, you don't have to "push" things to do it... just run the new HV cells...

It's not stupid... it's the difference between "fun-runs", and racing...

And we wonder why Nitro/Gas racers don't take us seriously... WE don't take us seriously....

[Darin Jordan]

By the way... MOST FE Racing is just "for fun"...

I would only really consider it important to carry out strict checking of cells at a National Level event, where Championships and Records were on the line.

[T.S.Davis]

I meant it was stupid what we spent on Nimh just to race. That old tech degraded the minute we soldered the cells together.

Darin, how many 200 plus boat races have you CD'd? After you've done it you can explain to me how "simple it is to do". At a SAW where a single boat goes out every 5 or 10 minutes it is certainly simple. I'm not checking every boat for every heat for every race at the Cup. Period. Not sure those attending will think it's just a fun run because we didn't check every boat every time it goes in the water.

I've also been told by multiple sources that the HV cells don't really have an impact until they are charged to capacity. True? I don't know. I can't test them all. My limited exposure thus far is that my amperage dropped a small percentage when charged to legal voltage. Now that was in comparison to two year old cells so it's likely not a fair assessment. I dropped 8 amps.

I've been to multiple mixed events. The gas and nitro boys don't take themselves that seriously either.

The saddest part of this is that at no point will we be testing cells in an effort to catch cheaters. It will be entirely and totally to appease those that aren't at an event. So they can't say "well sure, but nobody checked the voltage so it's not legit".

SAW is the greatest example this. Who in their right mind is going to risk getting caught over voltage? The volt check isn't for the racer. They know they're legal. It's for those that will later look at the results and attempt to discredit them.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, how many 200 plus boat races have you CD'd? After you've done it you can explain to me how "simple it is to do". At a SAW where a single boat goes out every 5 or 10 minutes it is certainly simple. I'm not checking every boat for every heat for every race at the Cup. Period. Not sure those attending will think it's just a fun run because we didn't check every boat every time it goes in the water.

Terry,

None... and either have you... There are only 6 boats per heat, remember...

And, you seem to have missed the part where my only concern would be for the P-LTD or "spec" classes, where the extra voltage actually matters.

This is sounding like the original Lipo debate... people over-complicating a rather simple task.

I don't give a rip what CDs do, honestly... Tell me the rules and if they make sense, I'll build boats and race.

[T.S.Davis]

Semantics. 200 plus boat events. Somebody has to do all this voltage checking.

It is simple. Random checks. Like a breathalyzer. Not drunk? No worries then.

[T.S.Davis]

By the way... MOST FE Racing is just "for fun"...

So there is really only one race per year that voltage matters? I didn't see any technical inspections of gas, FE or nitro boats at the Spring nationals in Atlanta. I could have missed it. Was that just a fun run? Felt like a race. I think the hosts thought it was a race.

Never been to a gas nats myself. Do they rip apart every entry before the race so that they can verify displacement etc? Front side. Before the heats. I'm totally ignorant here. If you win a class do they impound the boat so the motor can be torn apart? Again, ignorance on my part. I guess if they're taking themselves seriously they have to in order to award a national champion. I suppose I could check with the national gas chair if I really wanted to know.

Now that I think about it.......I've never checked voltage at my clubs races. Guess I should. Random of course. We've never had anyone totally dominate any class so we've never really thought about it.

[RaceMechaniX]

Terry and Fred,

You guys should do what comfortably works and hopefully keeps a level playing field. The classes that stand the most to gain from overcharging are P-Ltd and any offshore class.

Purely from the technical side for which I can confirm with data, increasing the cell voltage from 4.20V/cell to 4.35V/cell gains you almost 500mAh on a 5000mAh pack. So in a 2P setup that is close to 1000mAh total. Non-HV cells can easily be charged this high and see the same performance benefits although their life will significantly decrease.

Have a good race guys.

Tyler

BTW, both gas and nitro have stricter tech inspections that FE do. Stock Zenoah's are routinely torn down after a race for the NAMBA Thunderboat class. Nitro OPC classes are also subject to engine tear downs to ensure to legality. Of course all of these happen after a race day. Gas racing is filled with grey areas and people walking the line on legality.

[rayzerdesigns]

as tyler and darin have stated..the regular cells can be charged to 4.35..and the mah goes up and ir goes down..as people know me..i come from the rc car side but enjoy the boating thing immensely..i have tested charging to the high voltage with the normal cells..if you don't think its an advantage..take this into consideration..i run almost entirely limited classes..in testin only charging to 4.3 per cell my limitd mono has gained almost 2mph..my cat and lsh have seen gains of almost 3mph..thats significant..and terry..it wouldn't be that hard..and im sure you could get volunteers to check pre run voltage..it takes all of a couple seconds..then you can tape up..all you need is one extra table..and chair and a simple volt meter..i totally agree with checking at any big race..especially a national event..or any event where a record could be broken..it really not hard..yes..its a difference from what races I have seen..but I think it needs to be done..just my .02 cents

[detox]

I thought higher prop speed produced more cavitation

[ray schrauwen]

Quote: Darin Jordan: "So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??"

In accordance with the proposal. If it can be rendered useless for the heats it's allowed. So no boats that are intended to self right.

I notice VERY few posts in this thread of people worried about this rule. By passing this rule you have eliminated one person from D1 racing. The reason Kris K. Made the innovation of a self righting boat that doesn't use a flood chamber was 1. To avoid the use or need for a recovery boat and 2. To prevent the delay that a flood chamber creates in order to self right so as to decrease its potential for a collision with other racers.
Kris was not bending any rule or cheating, he was innovative and was punished for dong so by being lumped in with those using flood chambers.

This year at the MI Cup I submarined my Cheetah in heat 2 of P cat. It came back up and I finished my heat and took second in the class, so what right? My boat took longer by at least 2 times to recover than any of Kris's boats that selfright themselves.

Darin, how many boaters have taken you or others out of a sanctioned event with a boat like Kris's? Not boats with flood chambers....

Dave N. you started this proposal right after last years Nats. How many people did Kris interefere with in order for you to create this proposal? How much mahem did Kris cause? If it wasn't because of this what was the motive behind the proposal?
This is a bees nest I don't mind getting right into.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, how many boaters have taken you or others out of a sanctioned event with a boat like Kris's? Not boats with flood chambers....

Ray, WHY are you asking me this question?? I had absolutely NOTHING to do with this proposal, or any of the others either.

To answer your question, however, there have been SEVERAL in our club who have had very near misses while guys with self-righting boats fiddle-farted around trying to get them upright again.

Would I ban them? NO. Would I call them as dead if they were upside down on the course for more than a certain amount of time... YES. Just like all the rest of us have to be.


I'd have to go review the rule, but I don't think it BANs self-righting boats. I think it eliminates the USE of the self-righting feature. I see no reason for anyone NOT to race if they have one of these, unless they've just decided to get their panties in a bunch. Can't help you there.

[Doby]

Ray:

I talked to Chris before the Mich Cup...his stance was that the design of his boats will cause them to self right and there is no way to make that feature not work (like taping up a flood chamber) so therefore his boats were illegal in his opinion. For those not familiar with his designs, picture a cross between a sperm, torpedo and a chicken egg. The boats hatches are kinda egg shaped to one side to provide positive buoyancy and combined with offset battery mounting positions to act like a keel on a sailboat to provide ballast for self righting ability...they worked well (most of the time) and are brutally quick.

To bad he decided not to go, his non selfrighting boats ran well also ....his T Mono gave Haines a run for his money at the Nats last year.

[T.S.Davis]

Ray, your boat flipped. Was it because you were driving it beyond your butt knowing full well that if you flipped it was no biggy? You came back up upright. That was a fluke. That is not the norm for a Cheetah. How hard would you push with no fear of capsizing?

It's got zero to do with retrieval time.

Has anyone altered their course to miss a boat that was a self righter? yep
Did they come around the next lap in lane 8 to miss it only to find that the boat was gone? yep
Has anyone lost position in so doing? yep
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was running too loose? Don't know. Nobody does.
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was driven too hard through wash? Don't know. Maybe.
Was it self righting because the driver has no fear of being upside down? Who knows. Seems likely though.
Does the ability to "right" give the driver an unfair advantage? Clearly enough thought so.

Dave and number of us have argued this thing to death. The first time I had any conversations about them was 2005 around a camp fire. The first one I saw raced was owned by OSE founder Steve Vacarro. That night a bunch of us blabbed about it. Al Waters thought it was ingenious at the time. "A flood chamber? Really?" The purists said something like "blasphemy". See above for their reasoning. Since then we've had the conversation umpteen times. Opinions still vary. Some have been adamant that righting allows a boat that shouldn't even be able to compete........to actually win.

A prime example, my P mono is ridiculous. Has to be close to 70mph in the straights. I can't finish with it though. The answer is for me to slow down to some sane speed like the boats I'm racing against and actually compete. Or............ should I go the same captain insano speed and compensate by making my boat self right every time I flip?

Dave finally decided to let the membership decide what it wanted. The majority decided no self righters.

[ray schrauwen]

He is fixing up a cottage he bought on a lake larger than Cambridge. He has his own pond now and when the renos are done to the cabin, maybe a real FE Club will come back to life in Ontario. We are so splintered right now its sad. Too many egos and not enough playing with toys. John, are you going to 50 point in August?

[ray schrauwen]

David, for what it's worth, I'm with Jay. I don't really have an opinion on #1. My concern there is more about the drivers of those boats getting fixated on getting their boats up and running again, and not paying attention to the boats still actively racing on the course. Been taken out too many times by that.

Thank you.

This post is why I asked you Darin. We're they boats with float chambers or like Kris's ?

[T.S.Davis]

BTW I lost count of how many cells I checked at the Cup. A bunch. Didn't find anything illegal. Rarely found anything delivering even the 4.2volts. I checked both LV and HV cells. There weren't many HV cells out there. Those poor guys getting re-tapped.

I checked some guys stuff when they weren't even in their pits. They didn't even know I was checking them. Floated in like a vampire bat-checked the cells-out. I even checked some guys chargers during charging. Helps to know how most of the menus work.

I found a fat pack of Zippies that were delivering 4.205 out of one cell. The remainder of that pack was 4.18v or less. Seemed weird at the time.

[T.S.Davis]

John, are you going to 50 point in August?

Think he's hosed. We'll get his address and ransack his house. WOOOHOOOOO Party! Where's my pimp hat?

[Doby]

. John, are you going to 50 point in August?

Was going to, but the Mrs informed me earlier this week that our Aug trip to Switzerland is not on the 16th, as I thought, but on the 6th...so no, I'm out...but I was going to go. I even invited the Michigan Bozos to my place for a BBQ and swim when they were here, but had to cancel that as well.

[Doby]

This is a bees nest I don't mind getting right into.

You in a grumpy mood today Ray....got a stick up your azz or what? Sorry, I forgot, the sticks up your Cheetah!

[ray schrauwen]

Ray, your boat flipped. Was it because you were driving it beyond your butt knowing full well that if you flipped it was no biggy? You came back up upright. That was a fluke. That is not the norm for a Cheetah. How hard would you push with no fear of capsizing?

It's got zero to do with retrieval time.

Has anyone altered their course to miss a boat that was a self righter? yep
Did they come around the next lap in lane 8 to miss it only to find that the boat was gone? yep
Has anyone lost position in so doing? yep
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was running too loose? Don't know. Nobody does.
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was driven too hard through wash? Don't know. Maybe.
Was it self righting because the driver has no fear of being upsid down? Who knows. Seems likely though.
Does the ability to "right" give the driver an unfair advantage? Clearly enough thought so.

Dave and number of us have argued this thing to death. The first time I had any conversations about them was 2005 around a camp fire. The first one I saw raced was owned by OSE founder Steve Vacarro. That night a bunch of us blabbed about it. Al Waters thought it was ingenious at the time. "A flood chamber? Really?" The purists said something like "blasphemy". See above for their reasoning. Since then we've had the conversation umpteen times. Opinions still vary. Some have been adamant that righting allows a boat that shouldn't even be able to compete........to actually win.

A prime example, my P mono is ridiculous. Has to be close to 70mph in the straights. I can't finish with it though. The answer is for me to slow down to some sane speed like the boats I'm racing against and actually compete. Or............ should I go the same captain insano speed and compensate by making my boat self right every time I flip?

Dave finally decided to let the membership decide what it wanted. The majority decided no self righters.

I push the limit all the time, self righting or not but, I make sure I'm last across the start so I can pick up the crumbs.

I was not privy to any of these debates, was Kris?

I did not say anything about retrieval time but, I said it requires no retrieval at all because of its design as long as no electrical failures. When running alone, no retrieve boat is required. If racing, its one less boat to get.

Many of your points listed above can occur with any boat. A normal boat that dies can sink in a lap, same result as the self righter that continued on. People alter course for dead boats all the time, stuff happens, not Just with a self righting boat.
Points 4,5,6 are null, since you say basically who knows? Point 7, there are many ways to gain advantage like using an outboard motor (exposed motor on bottom of a catamaran) in a cat class like at the Nats. Did anyone mnake a proposal for that innovation???

[ray schrauwen]

You in a grumpy mood today Ray....got a stick up your azz or what? Sorry, I forgot, the sticks up your Cheetah!

Sort of, maybe.

You did not make it look last year and I think you said why.

[Doby]

So we need to limit where motors can be mounted now?? Come on Ray...get out of the sun or at least start wearing a hat....

XOXOX

[Doby]

Remember Ray, you are arguing a point that is in an organization you don't belong too, just like me...We are evil IMPBA slime. If we want to play in the NAMBA's sandbox, we have to bring the right toys to play nicely.

Haven't read the IMPBA rule book in a while, maybe self-righters are still allowed.