2015 NAMBA FE Proposals

[D. Newland]

There are 2 NAMBA FE proposals that I wrote, and that were passed by District 19, that will be in the upcoming Propwash (+/-April, 2015). I am posting this information in advance so that you may write an article for the Propwash to get your voice heard in the NAMBA publication. For or Against. If you decide to do this, please send an email to Al Waters @ namba883@cox.net ASAP and advise of your intentions. He will give you a deadline to have a finished article written.

1. Self righting boats. I have submitted a proposal to not allow self-righting boats in NAMBA competition, unless the self-righting capabilities can be eliminated or rendered useless for the event (CD approval required).

I'm fairly confident we all have our stance on this. I felt it time we actually find out what the membership wants to do, formally.

2. Voltage. I am proposing that NAMBA rulebook Section 28, page 5, D.1.a) Power Parameter chart change from Nominal to Actual voltage (4.23 volt/per cell increments), plus wording is added about pre-tech inspections @ SAW/2-Lap events. Please note that Section 28, Page 1 General Section rule that addresses which cells are official (3.7 nominal) remains unchanged with this proposal. This is not a High Voltage Lipo proposal, it is merely a proposal to help the technical inspections of cell voltage.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

[Fluid]

Dave, I support both proposals. A note about the length of time a boat can remain "dead" before being officially called dead might be useful, but number 1 does help. A definite voltage limit is needed. Until the newer chemistry is proven the limits help to level the playing field. At the LA SAWs last November we performed pre-run voltage checks with good success. This helps to reduce the incidence of "his boat was illegal" comments.....

[rayzerdesigns]

pre run voltage is def needed at big events..especially for record events..its simple as a voltmeter..then tape up..the newer high voltage cells as of now aren't legal in namba..they are being tested in the rc car world, I will say they are def faster..and so far seem to be holding up well, have been charging at 50 amps plus..so far so good, and governing bodies in the car side are in their testing phases

[Darin Jordan]

Dave, I support both proposals. A note about the length of time a boat can remain "dead" before being officially called dead might be useful, but number 1 does help. A definite voltage limit is needed. Until the newer chemistry is proven the limits help to level the playing field. At the LA SAWs last November we performed pre-run voltage checks with good success. This helps to reduce the incidence of "his boat was illegal" comments.....

David, for what it's worth, I'm with Jay. I don't really have an opinion on #1. My concern there is more about the drivers of those boats getting fixated on getting their boats up and running again, and not paying attention to the boats still actively racing on the course. Been taken out too many times by that.

For #2, like Jay said, we did Voltage Checks at the SAWs and I think it worked out really well. Definitely takes that question out of play.

Thank you.

[D. Newland]

Jay- I've had quite a bit of thought and discussion about "what constitutes a dead boat", and I just don't have a strong enough (and specific) opinion to personally propose something that I feel would be followed 100% of the time.

We have more and more Gas/Nitro guys CD'ing our races and it's typically the first question they have for the race organizers. Once we discuss a process with them, they quickly get into a groove. And, there are times when, IMO, a standing 3 count should be used (tight racing), and shouldn't be used (boat spins out and wants to wait for traffic to clear, or the last place boat subs on the last last lap and needs 4-5 seconds to get going). There are also times when a zero count should be used (mixed racing, for instance).

I personally favor CD's discretion at this point in time.

[rayzerdesigns]

touchy subject, I think if submarined or spin out I think you should continue..but I also agree not to impede any racing..which makes it a judgement call..maybe just a common sense thing..its not often you see a gas boat spin out and continue, but it does happen..usually they stall out..so maybe in mixed competition it needs to be addressed before the race and come to agreement with those in class or the cd..just my thoughts

[ray schrauwen]

So are Revolectrix batteries a no go or what? I only have one set for Q-sport and never can charge them past 4.20v/cell with the charger I have. Typically I don't fully charge my cells anyway so they last longer.

[GixerGuy1978]

all lipos are approved (including the revo and similar hi-voltage cells) as long as they don't hold a voltage greater than 4.23v/cell overall pack average before a race. Some (like the 'bolts') can charge up to 4.35v/cell apparently. A charger to charge above the 4.2v/cell is required for these hi-volt cells or equivalent packs.

[T.S.Davis]

Yep, that's exactly correct. 4.23v max charge. For now at least. I'm sure these will become the norm in no time.

[Doug Smock]

Yep, that's exactly correct. 4.23v max charge. For now at least. I'm sure these will become the norm in no time.

I think this is still out for a membership vote isn't it? Should have the results in June?

[raptor347]

At this point any LiPo with a 3.7V nominal voltage is legal. The HV cells I've seen still carry the 3.7V rating. If the new voltage cap rule passes, it will limit how high you'll be able to charge them.

[Doug Smock]

At this point any LiPo with a 3.7V nominal voltage is legal. The HV cells I've seen still carry the 3.7V rating. If the new voltage cap rule passes, it will limit how high you'll be able to charge them.

[keithbradley]

Since pre-run voltage checks seem to be emerging as favored protocol in both organizations, how does everyone feel about how this is checked?

I like the idea of voltage taps on the outside of the hull. Maybe just a small bullet connector with small gauge wires leading to the input wires of the ESC. This would allow racers to tape up when needed and voltage could still be checked after tape-up. Thoughts?

[Doug Smock]

Hey Keith,
Pre teching was in the IMPBA rules when LiPos were voted in. You may have participated in an event where the teching took place after a run as not all of our CDs were familiar with the FE rules. That is no longer the case.

B. Battery Specifications
Batteries may be of any commercial manufacture that is available to the public. These may include: Lithium Polymer or Lithium Ion, etc. type cells. The battery/pack/cell is only recharged by the application of an electric current to the battery using a battery charger specifically designed for the type of cell being used. Any method of recharging or partially recharging a battery/pack/cell by any other means is not allowed. Liquid acid type battery, Fuel Cell or Radioactive batteries are not allowed. A voltmeter will be used to measure the total voltage applied to the input of the speed control(s), un-loaded, with a fully charged ‘pack’ will constitute technical conformance to a class voltage limit.

The inspector(s) and/or CDs have to be able to inspect the wiring before every run.

1. A ‘pack’ is defined as the cell(s) wired in series or parallel or any wiring combination that is used to provide electrical power to the speed control for the purpose of driving the electrical motor(s).
a. Only one pack maybe used even if multiple speed controls are used.
b. The pack must be made up of only one type of cell chemistry.
c. In multiple speed control/motor installations the total pack voltage must be used as the supply input to each speed control. You are not allowed to tap off voltage or switch a packs’ parallel/series configuration during operation.
2. Contestants are cautioned to keep their wiring as simple as possible to make it easy for a contest director/technical inspector to confirm class conformance. Inspectors may require that batteries and or other components be removed from the model to make a ruling.

With running orders at our RTs getting your boat inspected and taped up in front of the CD shouldn't be a problem. If you are experiencing a problem at an event send me a PM, email, or call me and I'll address it.


Sorry for the IMPBA rant on a NAMBA thread fellas. My hope is now that I'm a member of both I'll be cut a bit of slack.

[rayzerdesigns]

Pre run voltage is what it should be..As getting voltage after a run has too many variables..As for having a tap on outside of hull..not sure many would want to do that..it's do easy to just have a table setup for pre race..check voltage then tape up..then hit water..

[keithbradley]

I don't ever recall running when pre-run voltage checks weren't done Doug. The only thing that's changed in the past few years is the voltage specs.
I don't understand how everyone is taping up at a CD's table and it's not a problem. At oval events don't you have a bunch of guys taping up at that same time? What do they do?

[ray schrauwen]

I'm all for voltage checks before races, no problem. I'm good, rules are as I thought they were. I only need 4.20/ cell.

[Doby]

I don't understand how everyone is taping up at a CD's table and it's not a problem. At oval events don't you have a bunch of guys taping up at that same time? What do they do?

There has to be a certain level of trust involved as well....it is a hobby after all.

[keithbradley]

There has to be a certain level of trust involved as well....it is a hobby after all.

So what does that mean?

[RaceMechaniX]

Keith,
At our record trails we have several experienced boaters assigned to check batteries before people tape up. This just means you call them over to your pit prior to you connecting and taping up and they check your cells via the balance tab. we check to three decimal places to ensure each cell is below 4.230V/cell.

At heat racing events it is a little more difficult to tech all boats obviously. We do rely on sportsmanship to race on a level field. Perhaps we will start random battery checks in the pits prior to taping up.

Tyler

[Doug Smock]

I don't ever recall running when pre-run voltage checks weren't done Doug. The only thing that's changed in the past few years is the voltage specs.
I don't understand how everyone is taping up at a CD's table and it's not a problem. At oval events don't you have a bunch of guys taping up at that same time? What do they do?

Huntsville, E City, and Atlanta have multiple tables set up for teching if needed. (I always take a spare for that reason) Once the boat is inspected it can be moved off of the table as long as it doesn't leave the CD / Technical inspectors sight.
Even though we are allowed 2.5 min pit time. I tell guys to make note of where they are in the running order and try to get inspected prior to the guy two spots ahead of them going in the pond. That gives them plenty of time to get ready and it saves that 2.5 minutes. At RTs where you have 15 to 20 contestants that time adds up.

I agree that spot checking at heat racing events should be adequate.

[Doby]

So what does that mean?

That's a bit concerning that it needs to be explained...


Trust= not cheating...that's what it would be as far as I'm concerned.

We are all in it for the hobby and would hope that cheating would be an major concern only for circumstances that involve winning substantial amounts of $$$ vs a $2.00 plastic trophy.

It would be cheating after all to charge batteries higher than currently allowed...anyone that wants to win that badly is obviously making up for other shortcomings in their lives....pathetic really. And lets face it, a few extra fractions of a volt will rarely (if ever) make a difference in oval racing as the fastest boat quite often never crosses the finish line. Getting through traffic alive and not flipping in wakes (buoys etc..) is a greater concern than increases in fractional voltages.

Maybe in the SAW world, its more important as it requires actually no driving skill (sarcasm) and is just a point/ shoot and pray for a few seconds type of run.

Do I personally think anyone at the last two Michigan events would/did cheat...No..best bunch of morons to hang out with for a few days. More interested in having fun than anything else. I don't even recall anyone even discussing it...again, everyone to busy having fun.

Perhaps SAW events attract more of a shady type of participant (sarcasm).

I will be running some of the HV Revos at the Mich Cup this year, fully charged to the best ability of my aging Triton 2 chargers..go ahead and check my voltages...

[Doug Smock]

I agree with you John and I can't say I have ever suspected someone of cheating at a heat racing event. Are they out there? Probably so. I don't get it either, but I don't think that way.

Time trials are a different animal as our records are only as good as our technical standards & inspections. And of course, if the rules aren't followed we have no insurance.

[keithbradley]

Pre run voltage is what it should be..As getting voltage after a run has too many variables..As for having a tap on outside of hull..not sure many would want to do that..it's do easy to just have a table setup for pre race..check voltage then tape up..then hit water..

I'm not suggesting it should be mandatory, but at least optional. It just makes sense.

[keithbradley]

That's a bit concerning that it needs to be explained...


Trust= not cheating...that's what it would be as far as I'm concerned.

WHAT IS IT?
I guess your answer to "What do you do at oval events?" is that you don't check voltage at oval events?
Are we talking in code here? Comprehension is not something I struggle with, so perhaps you should be concerned.

We are all in it for the hobby and would hope that cheating would be an major concern only for circumstances that involve winning substantial amounts of $$$ vs a $2.00 plastic trophy.

You can hope that, but do you really believe that?
If people only cheat for money, why are we even talking about this?

[Doby]

WHAT IS IT?
I guess your answer to "What do you do at oval events?" is that you don't check voltage at oval events?
Are we talking in code here? Comprehension is not something I struggle with, so perhaps you should be concerned.

Keith:


You can hope that, but do you really believe that?
If people only cheat for money, why are we even talking about this?

Grammar 101 "It" is whatever we are talking about...in this case trust/cheating...
No code, but I understand your confusion as I was typing in Canadian...I'll try and type in American...

At.......the.......last.........3........large.... ..FE.......events........I.......attended........ in........ Michigan....... I....... don't ........ recall....... anyone's ........ voltage ........ ever ...... being....... checked ...... . ....... Not .......saying ...... "it" ...... ("it"..... in .... this ..... case .... is .... voltage ..... checking ) ....... wasn't ........ done ........ , but ........ "it" .......... (see....... line ...... above ....... for ...... definition ..... ) ...... probably ....... wasn't ........ deemed ......... worthy........ of ....... interrupting...... everyone's ....... fun.


I'm ..... switching ....... back ...... to ...... Canadian....... now:

How many cases of "it" (voltage cheating) do you know about Keith? If you have suspicions/proof of any wrong doing, then please bring them to the FE worlds attention.

Should we start opening up spec motors and count the windings?? There are lots of gold motors out there sold by Tower (and others) that are above the 2030 Kv rating but are the same physical size as the current spec motors......wouldn't that slow things down on race day....

"it"=trust in your fellow competitors.

[Doug Smock]

Moderator here: Easy fellas...

I'm not suggesting it should be mandatory, but at least optional. It just makes sense.

Back to Records Director.

This can be beat to death for days, you know have we are.

The best thing to do is write a proposal, I'll submit it for you.
I don't think it will have any support for reasons stated in post #14, but I'll be glad to take it to the BOD.
The next meeting is the annual Internats meeting that will be held somewhere around June 24th- the 28th, so you have time. It would be a good idea to include a picture of your proposed external connector set up.

ARTICLE VIII - AMENDMENTS
SECTION 1
The IMPBA Official Rule Book shall be amended in the following manner:
A. Proposed amendments must be submitted to a District Director, National Director, President or any Voting Executive Board member in writing and signed and dated by the author and 5 IMPBA current members. It must be received 30 days prior to a Board Meeting for consideration.
B. All rule proposals regarding the Constitution, By Laws, Procedures, General Rules of Competition, Contest & Racing Rules, Technical Standards, and those pertaining to Classes (except those that affect safety or financial solvency of the organization), will be reviewed during any regular or special meeting of the Executive Board. The board will evaluate and approve or disapprove or amend all proposals. (Guideline: Does it benefit the IMPBA, and does it benefit the membership? It must benefit both)

[keithbradley]

Is that what they're teaching in Canada? Lol.

I would be happy to argue with you Doby, but I'm not sure what we're arguing about. I asked what people's thoughts were on integrating bullets into the hull so voltage can be checked after taping up. I specifically ask this here because it's a good idea, but like anything else, someone will try to find a problem with it (usually the same people). In no way is this question relative to how much trust you have, who you think did or didn't cheat, or how many people you assume I have on a hypothetical cheaters list (Outside of all the big money FE races out there, I don't see much). I don't care what you do with a spec motor, unless you're using the can for a voltage checking port on the outside of the hull, then I think it's a good idea.

Tyler:
Why at the balance plug? It seems like it would be easier and more relevant to check the voltage of the circuit. Couldn't I just remove one wire from a 5s balance plug and run in P?

[Doug Smock]

Tyler:
Why at the balance plug? It seems like it would be easier and more relevant to check the voltage of the circuit. Couldn't I just remove one wire from a 5s balance plug and run in P?

I was wondering the same.

[keithbradley]

I was wondering the same.

Captain's Log:

05-09-15

Doug Smock seemingly agrees with me...publicly