Weigh in on motor comparision for 1:10 scale!

[Fluid]

...Most gps aren't accurate anyway.

I cannot speak for "most" but almost a decade of comparing GPS speeds with SAW timing lights has shown me that the three GPSs I used were very close to the lights.



.

[DPeterson]

Ray - Sorry to hear you are experiencing some sort of drama in your club/district.

FYI - Going forward I will continue to make defensive posts when unsubstantiated statements are made concerning what we do in IMPBA D4.

Good luck with your motor dilemmas and Happy Holidays. Doug

[ray schrauwen]

Now, now, I said close... not the same that's for sure. Remember is not really a Turnigy, it's a Suppo. That's all I'm pointing out. The Scorpion is a step up but, not a huge one. I've have both Scopion and Suppo but different winds. kv...
A pair of the lesser 3650 hobbymate $22 motors can push a rivercat to 64mph with little effort. The Suppo is even better quality. Then can be abused a fair bit.

I'd say the Suppo is about equal in quality to any PB or AQ motor in my less than empirical testing, too bad I can't get the 2200kv ones anymore.

and you know the quality is because you have comparison tested several samples of each? Hmmmmmm. So you don't get what you pay for? And Scorpion is screwing us by a factor of six? Sorry, I don't buy it, based on Turnigy's quality history.



.

[T.S.Davis]

Terry


Kind of curious on how you came to this conclusion.

Fair enough. I don't have real world testing. I know I read at least one claim of more speed in a Popeye boat. Einstein I believe.

I have seen the TP construction. I can make an educated prediction. It's a better motor. Much like a scorpion is a better motor than a the old PB 1500. I didn't have to test that to predict what would happen either. Ken was running those years ago. The construction is great.

The TP has 20% more mass than the AQ. They didn't fill the can with fudge. More magnet, heavier wire, something.

We didn't find the sweet spot on a 2030 in a just a handful of runs. If you ran the exact same prop on both motors they should have been nearly exact. You could run the same props on the TP as the 2030's turn but eventually......somebody won't.

[Doby]

Yup...

[rayzerdesigns]

Ray, are you sure your 10 scale was running 54 mph with the Scorpion motor? 80% of the LSHs that are out there probably don't run 54 mph. If so, you have basically nuked the Scorpion motor from being approved. This motor will never be approved if it's 6-7 mph faster than the other motors. I'll be doing more testing with my Scorpion. Most gps aren't accurate anyway.

yes greg..its 5mph faster than any of my namba legal motor for scale..

[rayzerdesigns]

n

Ray - Sorry to hear you are experiencing some sort of drama in your club/district.

FYI - Going forward I will continue to make defensive posts when unsubstantiated statements are made concerning what we do in IMPBA D4.

Good luck with your motor dilemmas and Happy Holidays. Doug

no dilemma doug..mitch,s club is testing them..not for namba approval but for club..i plan on attending some of his races so I bought a motor to test..

[monojeff]

Funny how hard it is to get everyone all on the same page.
Lets just make a choice and get to some racing!!

My experience with these motors:
I have been running the PB motors in my boats now for over 1 yr and they have never given me issues or problem.
They will spin a 450/3 blade that has been cut down some no problem.
The old SV27 blue I burned up in 1 season with a 447/2 blade slightly cupped on my vintage boat which was very fast but obviously pushed this motor to much.
I know that the PB motor and the Himax motor real world testing are basically identical in speed and performance.

At the moment I have I think 5 PB motors and if they were to change the rules and I would have to buy new motors then I most likely would not be able to rave anymore.

Here is how I see things for out boats in percentages:
25% Motor (Speed, Performance)
25% Prop (Speed, Performance)
25% Driver (Reactions, Driving Style)
25% Hull Design (Each Boat is different and has it's own issues and flaws that have to be taken account for not all boats run great in like conditions.

We will never ever be able to compare apples to apples but we can all get similar motors to keep things closer competitively.
We have had people come run with our clubs with other motors and never has it been an issue with competition.
We all blow over at times, we all get bad starts. Drive more consistent and be on the clock = fast boats!
I have seen the slowest boat in the club become one of the fastest in the right drivers hands!

[rayzerdesigns]

Ray - Sorry to hear you are experiencing some sort of drama in your club/district.

FYI - Going forward I will continue to make defensive posts when unsubstantiated statements are made concerning what we do in IMPBA D4.

Good luck with your motor dilemmas and Happy Holidays. Doug

there is no dilemma in our club in Scottsdale..it sucks you aren't coming to race with us in feb..had fun last year meeting you..and racing with you..and yes our club follows namba rules..yes rules state cd can make a judgment call,,which he did..we put it to a vote at our first race in November..it was a unamimous stay with motors that are in namba rule book..happy holidays to you also..on that not merry Christmas to all

[rayzerdesigns]

Funny how hard it is to get everyone all on the same page.
Lets just make a choice and get to some racing!!

My experience with these motors:
I have been running the PB motors in my boats now for over 1 yr and they have never given me issues or problem.
They will spin a 450/3 blade that has been cut down some no problem.
The old SV27 blue I burned up in 1 season with a 447/2 blade slightly cupped on my vintage boat which was very fast but obviously pushed this motor to much.
I know that the PB motor and the Himax motor real world testing are basically identical in speed and performance.

At the moment I have I think 5 PB motors and if they were to change the rules and I would have to buy new motors then I most likely would not be able to rave anymore.

Here is how I see things for out boats in percentages:
25% Motor (Speed, Performance)
25% Prop (Speed, Performance)
25% Driver (Reactions, Driving Style)
25% Hull Design (Each Boat is different and has it's own issues and flaws that have to be taken account for not all boats run great in like conditions.

We will never ever be able to compare apples to apples but we can all get similar motors to keep things closer competitively.
We have had people come run with our clubs with other motors and never has it been an issue with competition.
We all blow over at times, we all get bad starts. Drive more consistent and be on the clock = fast boats!
I have seen the slowest boat in the club become one of the fastest in the right drivers hands!

amen!!!

[Coug90]

Wow, a lot has happened since I lost track of the thread temporarily. Thanks for everyone weighing in. I too believe the best we can do is to try and find motors that are close to include in this class. Outrunners and their qualities vs inrunners is still a bit of a new thing in boats. More testing is ahead, but right now it it looks like my concerns were warranted and I've learned a lot with your help. It appears that maybe an outrunner with a much higher wattage rating and similar kv rating and size is too much of a difference in performance. I would need to test this, but I suspect that the Scorpion HK3226 1400 kv version would be a better fit when compared to the available NAMBA legal motors today. I've also got my eye on the very affordable Leopard 3650 (1650 kv version) as something to consider in the future. The industry is just so unpredictable with the RTR offerings. I don't see the harm in doing our homework and seeing if we can stay a little ahead of the game if we can. 1:10 scale is steadily growing with clubs and individuals running them all over the world. Sure, you'll get the lion's share out west and in the Detroit area and where the real boats have been popular, but I get emails from all over. It surprised me. These kind of discussions really help, even if we ruffle a few feathers here and there. I'm always interested in different opinion and this has been huge for info gathering. Thanks guys. I'm hoping that in the future it will be easier to identify motor options using some of the manufacturer's specs as a place to start. Knowing how to look at the numbers at the same time you look at inrunners vs outrunners of comparable size is challenging, but I think it's well worth it. I'd hate to leave them out as options.

[siberianhusky]

Nothing... damn internet won't let me delete this, I have nothing to add to this conversation, sorry! Don't race these boats so my opinion doesn't count for squat!

[rayzerdesigns]

Mitch you should try and make winter warmups in Feb

[DPeterson]

Ray

we put it to a vote at our first race in November..it was a unamimous stay with motors that are in namba rule book

Lets see how this shook out. WW has 4 less participants. Each would be participant saved $1,500 in travel costs. We both lost the oppurtunity to run 4 TP guy's against 12-15 AQ 2030 guy's. Could have really put this entire debate to rest in one fun filled weekend. This race was never about records or notority from winning. Now its about a rule book?

As President of our Badger Model Boaters Club and IMPBA D4 FE Director I can assure you or anyone else that our club will keep the door open for anyone to run any boat. We'll find a class to run it in. It's a Hobby!

Cheers - Doug

[Doby]

As President of our Badger Model Boaters Club and IMPBA D4 FE Director

You iz an impotent guy

[rayzerdesigns]

You iz an impotent guy

lol

[DPeterson]

Thanks Doby. LOL

Just want to let you know specifically that I have the authority to even allow Canadians with their funny looking boats to run a few heats.

Doug

[Doby]

Then we will continue to get along...(more or less)

[leonard feeback]

The people just wanting speed probably aren't scale boaters anyway. Maybe they should try to get the proper set up to make the boat perform well instead of just using horsepower. Darin is correct racing is racing at any speed.

[T.S.Davis]

Maybe they should try to get the proper set up to make the boat perform well instead of just using horsepower.

That's the spirit. This is my favorite repeating theme.

We've heard this exact argument on 4 occasions now over the course of about 10 years.

The first time was when brushless motors hit the market. The brushed guys said "brushless motors are a substitute for skill". Whattttt everrrrr.

Then it popped up again when Lithium polymere hit the market. "If you worked on your setup you wouldn't need LiPo" Those guys also said we were all going to die in LiPo fires. Oh and that LiPo would spell the end of racing. A little over the top.

N1 guys have been using this for every tech change since I've been racing. "You don't like N1 because you can't do it". I don't do N1 because even watching them bores me to tears. Even at the nationals where guys are supposed to be top shelf. Snore.

The latest was the fluctuation in the limited motors. "You're having failures because you're not working your setups" Ah, the old stand by. Lack of ability and/or effort.

Yes, racing is racing at any speed. Unless...............that speed inspires too few to participate. Then nobody is racing.

[DPeterson]

Geez Terry

Some days you really tick me off. Then there are times I would like to plant a big kiss on that bald head of yours. Like right now after that last post.

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

Haha. Doug, all my friends go through that with me. Ask Fred about it some time. He's always on the edge of punching me in the head.

On the WW thing. You kinda did it backwards. If you had contacted them and said......"hey, let's put together a collection of motors and see if we can do anything smarter/different/better". Count the points, don't count the points, whatever, just to see if we're wasting our time. Throw in some SSS motors, maybe a Leopard or two, a Scorpion. Could even have done it one experimental class and called it "test of offshore lap systems" or "TOOLS" for short . That would have gone over I'll bet. Instead, you chose a motor, got relatively little test time on it, and wanted them to just accept it or your not playing.

See there ya go......now you can be pissed at me again. LOL

I do know that Tom is taking some SSS motors of various configurations with him to WW with hopes of just getting them in the water. Not to race in the classes. Just to turn some laps and see if there's any point in pursuing them further. The first motor we had hopes for, couldn't get it done. We were too conservative. The new batch should be closer.

[Darin Jordan]

Terry, you are getting too jaded...

Are you really trying to argue that setup isn't the reason why Brian runs away with P-LTD Hydro, for example? Really??

You think that I ran a 1:28.xx heat time in P-LTD OPC because of some other advantage? REALLY??

Do you REALLY believe that my Raptor Hydro, which isn't slow, can run a full heat race and not get over 110-degrees, turning an ABC 18-series prop, by some OTHER advantage other than setup? REALLY??

One thing I've learned in my limited travels is that people put WAY too much emphasis on "better batteries", or "more KV", etc... When if they'd learn to drive in lane one, make fewer driving errors, and actually spend some time tweaking, rather than throwing different props at it, they'd make much larger strides.

Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but felt like typing a knee-jerk reaction... :)

[DPeterson]

Oh Terry

Can I take back that kiss? LOL

On the WW thing you are way wrong on how it went. Kind of how most things go in NAMBA - decisions based on assumptions. But I am not going to elaborate here.

You all have a good set of Happy Holidays now!

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

Had to go back and read it to see if I said that. I didn't. You only keyed in on one of them. You're comment could be applied to all kinds of stuff.

"When if they'd learn to drive in lane one, make fewer driving errors, and actually spend some time tweaking, rather than throwing different props at it, they'd make much larger strides"

This one is the classic. Try that sentence and replace "different props" with the following:

Lithium Polymer
Brushless motors
Oh! I forgot "Nimh" That was the same argument then too.
Chameleons (for N1)
Brushless again (for N1)
throw HV cells in there too. That's the next one that will fit.
The SS1 fit in there
stepped hulls (in offshore)
self righting (that one is true IMO)

Absolutely, the tweaker gets faster. Setup is king. That hasn't changed ever. However, if a tweaker builds two identical boats or if he swaps out two motors that are supposed to be identical and one fries then maybe it's not the tweaker. For those that already have the "you're already too close to the edge" in the chamber, save it. We're always at the edge. It's racing. Now if the edge moves.............and you're over............... on a spec motor that equates to buying another motor. Well it did for some.

This is what Doug mentioned earlier. Step past the edge on his TP and the boat is slow. Step over on a 2030 and frishizzle. At least for a little bit that seemed to be the case. I do have some of the earlier motors and they were running very well up until the water became a solid. I've got my fingers crossed on the updated versions.

I think this is why some of us get so worked up about it. I received a PM from a former LSH National champion, not just me, not just some hack, asking me "Are they really saying that we're having problems because we don't know what we're doing?" The condescension pisses people off. It wouldn't shock me at all if that condescension was what pushed D4 forward with the TP motors.

[T.S.Davis]

On the WW thing you are way wrong on how it went. Kind of how most things go in NAMBA - decisions based on assumptions. But I am not going to elaborate here.

Fair enough sir. I was no fly on that wall. I hope we can find some excuse to get together this summer. I so enjoy hanging out and racing with you guys. What about the Can Am? We'll talk.

[Darin Jordan]

Step past the edge on his TP and the boat is slow. Step over on a 2030 and frishizzle. At least for a little bit that seemed to be the case.

Terry, and Doug, I suppose...

The TP is an electric motor... When you find the REAL "step over" point, it's going to "frishizzle" as well.

In the meantime, at least in the context of a "mulitple-Motor allowance" "Limited/Spec" class, you've just defined a new "class of the field", "gotta have one to win", power system. Once everyone realizes that, they'll all get them (look at all those just jumping on board already... as if a different motor is going to fix all their setup issues... ), then everyone will be pushing them beyond what they were designed for (just like we are doing now with the current motors), and then they will start having "reliability" issues, and then the "frishizzling" will begin again, as will the bitching about motor quality.

Then we can start this all over again...

Gotta love Racing 101...

Of course, if you are defining a 1-Motor class... it's all good.

[T.S.Davis]

Yes Darin. I understand. If we find that edge we wont step over it..................unless it moves.

[rayzerdesigns]

Terry, and Doug, I suppose...

The TP is an electric motor... When you find the REAL "step over" point, it's going to "frishizzle" as well.

In the meantime, at least in the context of a "mulitple-Motor allowance" "Limited/Spec" class, you've just defined a new "class of the field", "gotta have one to win", power system. Once everyone realizes that, they'll all get them (look at all those just jumping on board already... as if a different motor is going to fix all their setup issues... ), then everyone will be pushing them beyond what they were designed for (just like we are doing now with the current motors), and then they will start having "reliability" issues, and then the "frishizzling" will begin again, as will the bitching about motor quality.

Then we can start this all over again...

Gotta love Racing 101...

Of course, if you are defining a 1-Motor class... it's all good.

Darrin, this might be the best response ever..period!!

[rayzerdesigns]

btw..club race this weekend here in chilly az..I will try to get some video, I have really come to terms with the proboat(dynamite)1500..plus cant complain with a motor that is in the 40 to 70 dollar range..i have thrown numerous props and setups and timing..it keeps going..so much so that I bought 4 of them just in case