Turbine scales

[T.S.Davis]

Back in 2008 we held a race up here in MI. We knew the numbers were going to be low so we combined some classes. Called them something like Ultimate Sprint or some such nonsense. Basically we ran Q,S, and T hydro together. We ended up with a 3 boat heat. Two T rigger and Q cat. Twaits laid down a heat time of 1 minute and some change. 61 seconds I think. Spooky fast even by two lap standards. Goose bumps fast for 2008.

The record application was denied because it wasn't a real class even though the boat tech'd out.

Open is typically as defined by the host club. However, I doubt that gives us the freedom to allow plutonium power.

Although........I wonder if the insurance policy specifies no plutonium. Does it specify Lithium Polymer, Ion, Ferrite, NiMh, Nicd, LeadAcid? Or does it just say "gas, nitro, battery, but not turbine"?

Lithium Polymer and Nitro methane = perfectly safe
Turbine = certain death

[Chilli]

Although........I wonder if the insurance policy specifies no plutonium. Does it specify Lithium Polymer, Ion, Ferrite, NiMh, Nicd, Lead Acid? not turbine"?

Don't forget "Steam"

[jaike5]

You are right Mike,

we have all used the slang term of "open" when it is really T, limited by hull size and cells for electric and cc/in for the fossil burners.

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

All the insurance company cares about is that the safety rules are followed. They don't know anything about the boats and don't care what boats run in what class as long as they don't exceed the maximum length, weight, displacement, and voltage.

''Open'' has always meant any legal hull. Typically you'll see open, mono, hydro, and offshore. We ran a "unlimited" class at the Spring Nationals the last two years. That class consists of ANY legal IMPBA boat. No rules were broken.

Nobody said anything about there only being two classes. Let's not make this harder than it is.

[T.S.Davis]

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

I can't speak for IMPBA but for NAMBA it's supposed to be that violation of the safety rules is the only way to lose coverage. We're not insured based on the heat racing rules. If that's the case then every offshore course that's unorthodox renders a whole site uninsured. Not the case of course.

This is part of what's wrong with the safety rules in my opinion. If you're only insured for certain power sources that should be in there. If it's gas/nitro/battery put it in there. Apparently there are insurance limits that have never been relayed to the membership. Makes me wonder what other requirements or limitations are in there that we're unaware of.

[T.S.Davis]

and voltage.:

Doug, did IMPBA put the max in their safety rules?

[Doug Smock]

Doug, did IMPBA put the max in their safety rules?

Yes sir. Max voltage per class that works out to be 4.23 v/cell.

[T.S.Davis]

Wait, you have max voltages for each class in the safety rules?

[Doug Smock]

Wait, you have max voltages for each class in the safety rules?

Yes sir. It keeps things simple for the tech inspectors. No math to do like the old +/- 17% rule.

[D. Newland]

We can debate what is and is not covered under NAMBA/IMPBA insurance forever. Nothing will change and no new information will be presented. The policy just isn't going to be made public.

Stay within the rule book to ensure coverage, and to ensure our insurance policy's future. I'll elaborate on that in a bit. Todd-you're just not going to find what you are looking for unless you write up a proposal and get it passed by Dist 2 and then NAMBA.

OK, please consider a different angle on this topic.

If something happens out on the pond with a boat that does not fit the rules (a 12S Mono or Todd's turbine) , NAMBA/IMPBA insurance will most likely open a claim, depending on the severity of the accident. It most certainly will open a claim if there is an attorney involved. It may or may not be covered, but a claim will be opened and investigated to see if there is coverage.

After that investigation and claim acceptance or denial, the file will move to the insurance company's Underwriting Dept.

That's when things can go downhill fast for either organization.

Underwriting will give a rectal exam to the claim file and the organization in general, then decide if they want to continue coverage. Guess what they would decide if a 12S Mono or a Turbine caused injury to somebody? Cancellation. Even if a claim was denied.

Please trust me on this. I'm not blowing smoke. I've done this sort of thing. They will consider the risk too great and drop coverage.

And, I doubt the organization will find coverage with another company either. Why? Because the claim will have to be disclosed on any new application for insurance. The new company's Underwriting Dept will give a rectal exam to the application and probably decide, "no thanks". Too much risk.

It could literally be the end of our organization. Our insurance is everything. Without it, we're nothing.

IMO, we will continue to see NAMBA making decisions and rules that tightens up our organization, all in the name of safety, which in turn keeps our insurance viable.

Lastly, I've heard and read something like, "It's OK, I have AMA insurance. I can run my 16S boat". Trust me again, if you are a NAMBA member and also have AMA and/or Homeowners insurance, you don't get to decide which insurance gets to protect you. If you hurt someone (and especially if an attorney is involved), all of your available insurances (home/renters, AMA, NAMBA, IMPBA, APBA, XYZ) will get a phone call by the plaintiffs attorney to open a claim. Go back and read what I typed above about Underwriting.

So, to recap, you may or may not have coverage, but you sure as heck will put the future of NAMBA/IMPBA's insurance coverage in jeopardy.

And, for that matter, our hobby.

So, Todd. Please get with your District to write a rule proposal. If they pass it, then it will move to NAMBA membership for a vote. If it then passes, you can run your boat. Until then, please don't run it. Or, turn in your NAMBA membership and don't run it at a NAMBA insured pond. Rely on AMA or Homeowners insurance to cover you.

[Doug Smock]

If something happens out on the pond with a boat that does not fit the rules (a 12S Mono or Todd's turbine) , NAMBA/IMPBA insurance will most likely open a claim, depending on the severity of the accident. It most certainly will open a claim if there is an attorney involved. It may or may not be covered, but a claim will be opened and investigated to see if there is coverage.

After that investigation and claim acceptance or denial, the file will move to the insurance company's Underwriting Dept.

That's when things can go downhill fast for either organization.

Underwriting will give a rectal exam to the claim file and the organization in general, then decide if they want to continue coverage. Guess what they would decide if a 12S Mono or a Turbine caused injury to somebody? Cancellation. Even if a claim was denied.

Please trust me on this. I'm not blowing smoke. I've done this sort of thing. They will consider the risk too great and drop coverage.

And, I doubt the organization will find coverage with another company either. Why? Because the claim will have to be disclosed on any new application for insurance. The new company's Underwriting Dept will give a rectal exam to the application and probably decide, "no thanks". Too much risk.

It could literally be the end of our organization. Our insurance is everything. Without it, we're nothing.

Again you hit the nail squarely on the head. Great post.

[Chilli]

You are right Mike,

we have all used the slang term of "open" when it is really T, limited by hull size and cells for electric and cc/in for the fossil burners.

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

Cheers, Jay.

I'll admit I don't have a clue how the insurance works for either organization and the AMA which I am a member of also. I welcome anyone who wants to shake things up to voice their opinions here but then follow though via the appropriate channels. There are people here that can guide you.

As for turbines, I personally think the would be very cool to see them at SAW events. My only concern safety wise is the ability to slow down when coming off the throttle. Are most of these boats direct drive? Do they have a clutch or do you have to wait for the motor to spool down?

Rock on!!

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, I follow. I really do.

However, what NAMBA must do (not should) is relay to it's members any limitations or requirements that will jeopardize their coverage.

They advertise the coverage and spell out in the rule book the things that will cause cancellation. Now by your description......we have to also follow all of rules or the resulting lawyer dance will cause a loss of coverage for the entire organization.

Sooooo....the electric sections describe an offshore course. Failure to run that course coupled with an accident and the lawyers will gobble it up. If the whole book applies then your WW race is was risky with it's illegal offshore course. Especially with the far buoy being anywhere near the opposing shore.

Silly yes but where do we draw the line? Where the book tells us the line is (safety rules) or............................? I guess where ever Robert decides the line is. Because we all know that the policy doesn't get into which motors are approved and which aren't. Which cell chemistry is and isn't approved. No way.

As a consumer, if I went out and bought insurance for myself, I would want to know what the limitations were so that I could stay covered. The provider would tell me. Likely in writing. What I did though was buy my insurance from NAMBA. NAMBA told me how to stay protected. In writing just like I would expect............... accept they left out some stuff.

I'll let you decide what the term is for that kind of dishonesty.

[PatrickM]

I'll let you decide what the term is for that kind of dishonesty.

This type of "dishonesty" as you describe it, is called affordable insurance. Would you rather pay $1000 per year for your IMPBA or NAMBA membership/insurance and receive a better defined rule set and policy? Personally, I would rather live with what we are offered (and the massive efforts that have gone into providing what we have) than pay the price for this kind of nit picking.

[T.S.Davis]

The limitations keep the price down. Yep. Get that.

Providing a product that is different than as than your documentation claims is fraud.

[jaike5]

Oh Deeer.....

Example of legal wrangling:
Look a head on the road. now does that mean there is a head on the road ( not human), or look a head on the road to see what's coming.

Cheers, Jay.

[Doby]

Oh Deeer.....

Example of legal wrangling:
Look a head on the road. now does that mean there is a head on the road ( not human), or look a head on the road to see what's coming.

Cheers, Jay.

Dumb Kanadian...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ahead

[PatrickM]

The limitations keep the price down. Yep. Get that.

Precisely.
The national organizations are using very sound judgment by not publishing the actual policy wording. I can't begin to imagine how some wannabe lawyers would misconstrue, warp, twist and attempt to mislead others with their own interpretations of the policy, it's implications and realities as applied to RC boating.

Providing a product that is different than as than your documentation claims is fraud.

See above.

[T.S.Davis]

How can anyone be okay with this? We buy insurance from NAMBA. "Without it we have nothing" somebody said that.

Guy buys car insurance. Pays X number of dollars. Has an accident turning left at a light. Minor thing.

Insurance company cancels his insurance.

"Why was my insurance cancelled?"
"You made a left turn"
"Left turn? What do you mean?"
"You can't make left turns"

Guy digs up his paperwork to see what he bought. (In our case the rule book) Nothing in there. Calls again.

"None of my paperwork says anything about left turns"
"Oh it's not in there"
"Why can't I turn left then?"
"I just decided. It's on our copy"
"Would have been handy information. Why didn't you put it on my copy?"
"We keep the price down by not telling you what's covered"
"Guess I got screwed"
"No, you got what you paid for"

For the record, I absolutely do not care if Todd's boat ever runs. Sorry Todd.

What I do care about is the fact that our rule book tells us how to stay protected and we're being told those parameters aren't sufficient. If the policy mandates total compliance with the rule book that's just grand..........then relay that to the customer (that's us).

If it's not in there then we have leadership making the call.

It's turbines today. Next it may be something that effects everyone. How about no more modified props. Thinning the blades makes them prone to failure. Can't risk throwing a blade.

[Peter A]

Problem with insurance companies is like banks they are a law unto them selves. Just ask all those affected by the Christchurch earthquakes (NZ). Paid their premiums for years. Four years plus later some (many) are still waiting for claims to be settled.
We (NZMPBA) have had to work through a similar issue, as President I raised it and we have had to make sure that all club days are sanctioned as well as regattas as the policy covered sanctioned events (basically).

[photohoward1]

What is the Cell Limit for IMPBA? I know in NAMBA it's 10"s.....is there a Mah limit in each organization? I really want to keep my club in check....

[Doby]

2 different organizations= stupidity.

Merge.... and move on to greater things...

[keithbradley]

What is the Cell Limit for IMPBA? I know in NAMBA it's 10"s.....is there a Mah limit in each organization? I really want to keep my club in check....

It's 10s.
So I guess based on Doug P's earlier suggestion of "hand in your NAMBA card and run elsewhere if you want to run a turbine" the same would apply to anyone that wanted to run 12s on their own time.
Since HV lipos have been banned from NAMBA because they have the capacity to be charged to a higher voltage, it would only be logical that 12s controllers be outlawed as well.

I know Terry can be a little over the top, but I think there is a lot of merit to what he saying.

[Doby]

So the rule books are derived from the insurance policies?????

Is that the general tone that I'm hearing??

[T.S.Davis]

Think that was Dave that told Todd to turn in his card.

The rule book doesn't tell you "don't run 12s". It should but it's not in there. There's a class max of 10s but the class rules aren't mentioned as a basis for loss of insurance in the safety rules.

However, it apparently doesn't matter if it's in there.

NAMBA is 12k for T.

[T.S.Davis]

So the rule books are derived from the insurance policies?????

The rules are (at least for safety) what ever leadership says they are. That "could" be okay. They're trying to protect the organization from exposure, lawsuits, and the potential loss of coverage for everyone. Sensible and they were elected to the position. Dave's description of how it would go is likely spot on.

BUT it's probably a good idea to tell the membership what those rules are so that the they don't screw up the works.

If Todd didn't know people he would have just read the book and stayed within the guidelines and thought that in so doing was protected.

[ls1fst98]

so does all this mean i wouldnt be able to run my 12s hpr at my club lake or we could potentially lose our insurance??

this thoroughly confused me. but i see where someone is coming from. it doesnt specifically say no turbines, but it doesnt say you can run a turbine.

[Doug Smock]

What is the Cell Limit for IMPBA? I know in NAMBA it's 10"s.....is there a Mah limit in each organization? I really want to keep my club in check....

There is no mAh limit in the IMPBA.

[T.S.Davis]

so does all this mean i wouldnt be able to run my 12s hpr at my club lake or we could potentially lose our insurance??

Yes, that's what I'm being told. Don't look for the text trail. It's not there.

[mickieb49]

How on earth do the Germans get the insurance coverage to run their turbines? I understand the gos and no goes of the insurance battles, whats covered and whats not.

I have a Turbine, and have been looking around to get insurance for myself, and because the AMBPBA here in Australia does not allow Turbines to run on any of their sanctioned dams, I have been trying to find another I can run it on, so not to have insurance conflicts, or put my organisation in a difficult spot.. Sounds stupid doesn't it.
I think it just comes down to respect for everyone else who loves their boats, my choice to go out and buy what is basically going to be a shelf queen ( out on sunny days) should not jeopardise my fellow boaters .
Change the insurance policies to include them.....yes please.
Do I think it's going to happen? .........More than likely Not.
Regards Mick