Turbine scales

[Todd Fleury]

I know that there are only a few here in the states, but I am trying to get something going in NAMBA and IMPBA so they can at least set a record. These boats fall under every aspect in both NAMBA and IMPBA, for length, weight and propeller driven. I also know that the jetcat engines are under the CC limit.

[T.S.Davis]

Todd,

I know we've had this conversation before. There are no safety rules prohibiting them. Not in the NAMBA book at least. The only issue rule wise is that there are no turbine classes. The likely hood of there ever being an actual class is slim. TOOoooooo much dough.

The book says that if you don't follow the safety rules you will lose insurance coverage. It doesn't say "follow the class rules" despite the belief of some that it does.

Disregard of these safety regulations will cause the loss of insurance eligibility for the
member should an accident occur. Disregard of these safety regulations can also
result in the member being ejected from an event by the contest officials, or can cause
the member to lose use of a particular racing site.

Those that try to keep you from running them at all can't point to a rule. They have an agenda for what ever reason. They want to say it's a "safety" issue but there is no reference to a section in the book that I've seen to back them up.

The CC limit isn't a "safety" rule. Maximum voltage isn't in the safety rules either and that TOTALLY should be. There are no classes for them but on paper you can run a 20s setup without insurance issues. You're stupid but you're insured.

Although, who knows. There are things that the BOD voted on recently that I've never actually seen on paper. We'll see at least one brand new safety rule in the next printing in January. Maybe there's something new on turbine power too.

Interesting to is that there are no provisions for any executive member to revoke insurance coverage. A CD can eject a racer and not allow him to use a site but there's no allowance for cancellation from say 1200+ miles away. Just say'n.........

[Todd Fleury]

From someone within NAMBA..........

Todd,
It has come to my attention that you may be running a boat with a turbine engine. It sounds like a blast. However, I must inform you that NAMBA Insurance does not cover you in case of an accident, nor will the lake/land owner be covered. These engines types have not been approved by NAMBA nor have they been included within our insurance coverage.

As these engines types get more popular we may need to look into coverage.

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah I know.................apparently if you're high enough in the organization you can decide what the rules are and enforce them as you see fit. haha There was a call to our district too.

There is nothing in writing that was published and distributed to the membership that corresponds to that email.

If you had to go to court the only way the organization/underwriter can forfeit coverage is if you violated the safety rules. Per our rule book that is distributed to the membership. As NO motors are specified in those safety rules I can't see how it's enforceable. I say that but the only way it would ever come up is if there was some catastrophe, the insurance denied a claim, and lawyers had to sort it out.

I've not read the IMPBA rules for comparison but it's currently on my "to-do" list. Not regarding this. Just on general principle.

[Doug Smock]

Todd,
We are having a BOD meeting next month. I'll see if we can get something on the agenda for you as promised.
It would be cool to see these run for records.

[photohoward1]

You are covered under most home owner policies though. Stupid is as stupid does.


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[jaike5]

I would think turbine would fall under the open class ...... or is it a closed open class. Is there a rule some where in the fine print you have to read in a mirror with a jewelers loupe.

Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

In order to run in an open class there has to be a class established (rules) within the organization for the boat.
Otherwise the open classes would be a free for all.

[keithbradley]

Todd,
We are having a BOD meeting next month. I'll see if we can get something on the agenda for you as promised.
It would be cool to see these run for records.

Heck yes.
Turbines have been around for a long time. In terms of safety I don't know how anyone can say they have a greater potential to cause injury/property damage than an I/C or electric boat.
It's definitely the easiest move to just say "NO", but I'm glad Doug isn't just doing what's easy here. Thanks to the guys who go out of their way to do what's right, not just what's easy (and for free at that).

By the way, how many entries are needed for a "class"? Is it just a matter or voting it in and writing it into the rules or do there need to be a certain number of boats participating?

[Doug Smock]

This is going to be a tough sell Keith, and I've been honest with Todd about that.
There does need to be a number? of boats running, and real membership interest in the class typically. But, this isn't a typical class.

I know there aren't many of them in the US. A few reasons for that I'm sure.

But, they are model boats, they are very cool, there is some interest.
I think we should to talk about it. See if they can be insured. Try to get a exhibition or two approved at our record trials. ( It's a start) I think it would be sweet to have these running at our record trials, for records. How will we know if we don't ask. I ain't skeered. lol

I'd love to have one but then I'd need a new wife, house, etc.

[Todd Fleury]

This is all I wanted, a discussion regarding these boats. I just am tired of hearing no.

[T.S.Davis]

By the way, how many entries are needed for a "class"? Is it just a matter or voting it in and writing it into the rules or do there need to be a certain number of boats participating?

It could be proposed by a district (for NAMBA). Then a district vote. If passed at the district level it would go to national for a vote. Typically a DD wont go out on that limb without seeing a season of boats to prove the concept and the demand. 3 boats makes a class but if you're seeing 3 boats for a season of racing that doesn't really indicate demand. By all means, if you're having fun run them but don't get hung up on there being an official class for them. In the past we've run a class for at least a year before proposing anything for voting. If numbers are only so-so it's time to reach out to other districts to see if anyone else is running your concept. Gauging the demand isn't an exact science. This is the step that DD's have been known to skip in the past too. Anybody seen ECO at a NAMBA event lately? Nobody was running it when it was proposed either. There might not be three turbine scales in the US total so the likelihood of it ever getting proven and/or proposed to NAMBA is extremely slim.

Unfortunately or fortunately, both organizations goal is to get people to the pond to race boats. It isn't necessarily to accommodate the whim of every model boater. No offense intended to Todd. That turbine is awesome. It's the old "there's too many classes!" argument. Been around as long as I've been racing. Theory being.............get guys focused on fewer classes = heats.

It may well be that both NAMBA and IMPBA insurance policies specifically include or exclude certain motor types. I don't really know. I'm told that the NAMBA policy is that specific. However, what is or is NOT allowed needs to be in the rule book that you send to your members.

[SJFE]

Strikes me as kind of a recurring theme when I see safety given as a reason to not allow something new into racing. I remember reading threads just like this about 6 or 7 years ago when lipo batteries came widely available for use in boats. There was talk of fires, explosions and the end of the world as we know it cost wise. Seems it all worked out. just like this will I'm sure.

[RaceMechaniX]

Todd,

I highly suggest you pick up an AMA membership to cover you in case something does happen. I believe this covers you to some extent. I have had similar people ask about increasing the cell limits to 14S or running 125cc engines. It all comes down to insurance coverage and the premiums we pay as organizations.

Tyler

[T.S.Davis]

Strikes me as kind of a recurring theme when I see safety given as a reason to not allow something new into racing. I remember reading threads just like this about 6 or 7 years ago when lipo batteries came widely available for use in boats. There was talk of fires, explosions and the end of the world as we know it cost wise. Seems it all worked out. just like this will I'm sure.

Seems like yesterday to me. There were some that believed that we would not be insured if we didn't run Nimh. They refused to read the rule book. There were guys that left the hobby over LiPo.

[JUICE]

There are no rules for turbine engines in IMPBA. It clearly states nitro and gasoline and there are voltage limits for FE in the rule book. There would have to be rules written and passed by the BOD. I think the chances are slim at best since there are not a lot of these boats out there. To get something in the books for a small few I believe just won't happen. I know that is not what you wanted to hear but those are the facts.

[photohoward1]

Juice, What if a guy shows up with an actual diesel? Would they not be covered? Just surmising here.

There are no rules for turbine engines in IMPBA. It clearly states nitro and gasoline and there are voltage limits for FE in the rule book. There would have to be rules written and passed by the BOD. I think the chances are slim at best since there are not a lot of these boats out there. To get something in the books for a small few I believe just won't happen. I know that is not what you wanted to hear but those are the facts.

[photohoward1]

One more thing.. Guys run Coleman Fuel? This is not Nitro or Gasoline. I'm not arguing, Just pointing things out. Someday if I win there lottery a Turbine would be cool.

[SJFE]

I'll add if saw introduced a turbine class I'd try an hock the farm to build one. I think more than a few guys would do them same if only for the same reason Chuck Yeager firewalled that throttle looking for the monster out there past the edge of the envelope. Some folks just wanna go as fast as possible. Me I'd wanna try it in a boat as close to scale as possible. After All offshore boats aren't out there turning laps and making speed runs on lipo.

[JUICE]

Juice, What if a guy shows up with an actual diesel? Would they not be covered? Just surmising here.

I don't see diesel anywhere in the rule book but and I am not a nitro guy. However it does run in a glow motor. You would have to get with the Nitro Director on that. And Coleman fuel is white gasoline and is legal.

[PatrickM]

Todd,

I highly suggest you pick up an AMA membership to cover you in case something does happen. I believe this covers you to some extent. I have had similar people ask about increasing the cell limits to 14S or running 125cc engines. It all comes down to insurance coverage and the premiums we pay as organizations.

Tyler

A possibly useful suggestion, but keep in mind that the AMA member policy is secondary insurance. It will only cover post litigation costs that your homeowners policy doesn't.

[PatrickM]

Probably a stupid question, but how does one determine the swept cylinder volume of a turbine?

[Todd Fleury]

Housing Diameter:83 mm (3.27")
DimensionsL x W x H approx. 375mm, x 100mm x 160mm (14.8" x 3.9" x 6.3")
Total weight including gearbox:2930 g (103 oz)
Weight of accessories:650g (ECU, Valve, Gastank, Battery, Wires and Tubing) (23 oz)
Idle GG-Turbine speed50000 RPM
Maximum GG-Turbine speed:175000 RPM
Compressor Pressure Ratio2:1
GG-Turbine EGT:480- 730°C (896 - 1346 F)
Mass Flux0.14 kg/s
Idle Output Shaft Speed6000 RPM
Maximum Output Shaft Speed (depending on gearbox version)
19000- 35000 RPMEGT:300 - 360°C (572 - 680 F)
Power-shaft speed:19,000 - 22,000 RPM
Power:8 kW (11.2 hp)
Fuel:Kerosene Jet A1, PetroleumLubrication5% Synthetic Turbine Oil in Fuel
Fuel consumption at full power:260 ml/min
Fuel consumption at idle:90 ml/min
Service Interval50 hours
Drive system Custom water-cooled gearbox

[jaike5]

In order to run in an open class there has to be a class established (rules) within the organization for the boat.
Otherwise the open classes would be a free for all.

As stated in above posts there is classes stated weather it be mono/cat/hydro. I'm sure we are talking power plant here, and turbine falls in the open category . On another note can cats run in hydro since they run on three points ?

Cheers, Jay.

[don ferrette]

As stated in above posts there is classes stated weather it be mono/cat/hydro. I'm sure we are talking power plant here, and turbine falls in the open category . On another note can cats run in hydro since they run on three points ?

Cheers, Jay.

Wrong sir. Open classes are for mixing recognized already established classes together, it is NOT a "run what ya brung anything goes" class.

[photohoward1]

Yes! So can a Tunnel.

On another note can cats run in hydro since they run on three points ?

Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

together, it is NOT a "run what ya brung anything goes" class.

WHAT! Just when I was dropping that V12 into my big mono. Back to the drawing board.

Jay, as far as I know you can run a cat in hydro just as you described. We used to do it at the Michigan Cups. Pretty sure IMPBA is the same.

[Doug Smock]

If it's not a mono, it's a hydro.

[jaike5]

If it's not a mono, it's a hydro.

Awesome !! cool we now have two classes, 4 different sizes in each. That should make every one happy

So then I was correct it's closed open class.

I didn't see "RECOGNIZED, ALREADY ESTABLISHED CLASSES" in the rule book , my bad.

[Chilli]

We also have specialized classes. Have you read the rule book? (not being sarcastic) Mono, Cat, Outboard Tunnel, Sport Hydro, Rigger, 1/8th scale. I would think 21 FE classes would make the majority of members happy. (again, not being sarcastic)

And while we're at it, where did you folks see any definition for the Open Class in the rule book? In the IMPBA, the only reference I can find to Open is the LSG Open Offshore class which specifically states "All IMPBA legal LSG engines are permitted". So for anyone looking to run what you brung under the "Open" umbrella, I have news for you. It just isn't there on a national level. In reality, most "Open" classes are combinations of IMPBA defined classes that are permitted on the district or club level or at sanctioned races (if posted on the race flier).