NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

[Darin Jordan]

Now nobody has a choice because there are only 2 left. One of the two I don't trust so that leaves just one motor.

There MAY be other options...

NAMBA Rulebook section 28.D.1.d.iii:

iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:

(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.

(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.

(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event

[Darin Jordan]

There MAY be other options...

NAMBA Rulebook section 28.D.1.d.iii:

iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:
...
(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event

... in addition... a strict interpretation of what c) actually is saying, in the context of the rule (a list of things that can be allowed by the CD, a, b, and c.), would indicate that it's also legal for a CD of the event to list the "allowed motors for the event" on a race flier.

[T.S.Davis]

Yes Darin, but b. doesn't exist.

The SSS motors that I was trying are rated differently than the AQ or PB motors.

Here's a thought..............................what if we bypass Proboat and get the motors from Dynamite?

[revoltrunner]

Darin said this earlier

Just to provide some facts for this discussion, the Dynamite motors that Pro Boat had been using will NO LONGER be available. They've been discontinued.

So, as far as the rules are concerned, P-LTD has, for all intensive purposes, become "P-AquaCraft"...

Carry-On...

[Darin Jordan]

I would like to suggest, in all this discussion, that we all keep in mind one pretty important point:

The whole nature of this class STARTED with the introduction of the RTR SV27, and was quickly followed up with the UL-1, Miss Geico, IM31, Revolt, Motley Crew, etc.... Now TFL is entering the mix, and it looks to me like Atomix/Venom and maybe even Traxxas could offer entries as some point here.

RTR offerings, and RTR power systems, are the very BASIS for the existence of the P-LTD framework. The classes, to this very day, are FILLED with Revolts and Miss Geicos and Mystics and Motley Crews and Lucas Oils and BlackJack 29s, etc.

Some of you may not see this in your areas, but in areas with a LOT of growth and a lot of Nitro converts, or FE newbies, these boats form the BASIS with which they enter into the racing ranks. I can provide pictures from the 2014 NAMBA Nationals with Nitro FE converts racing in the Exhibition FE classes and standing on the podium in classes like P-Mono, smiling and holding their AQ Revolts. (Heck, one was ALMOST standing up there with a very over-powered IM31.. :)

These RTRs are the very FOUNDATION of many racing organizations and race classes in NAMBA. Without them, you would simply NOT have the amount of participation that we enjoy today.

Anything you do with motor rules NEEDS to keep these offerings in mind. Anything you specify needs to be competitive with THEM, not the other way around.

And for those who think that the RTRs aren't or can't be competitive, all you have to do is look at the race entries for many of these classes, especially the Mono and Cat classes. At least out here, there are RTR hulls that are usually on the podium, or not far off the pace. Maybe we're just all beginners??

AND, every one of these drivers at some point, decides they want to do more, and show up with Mean Machines or some other custom built creation, with their RTR power system on board, and begin moving up in the ranks.

It's all starting, however, with that off-the-shelf offerings, those pesky Ready-to-Run boats, that got these drivers started... and hooked... on this incredibly fun racing pass-time.

[Brushless55]

I really love the P-Ltd classes!
for some reason and I know its my setup but I've cooked several AQ2030 motors in my JAE
but the motor in my PS295 rocks and was I think one of the first runs with the UL-1, and that motors just keeps going and going and .....

[fox88gt]

Heck, I just wish I had to a club to race with thats less than a 180 mile round trip away!

[Greg Schweers]

I told Dave years ago that it'll come down to one manufacturer for spec. The problem I have is that they've changed/lowered the quality of the motor and turned around to charge you $20 more. To me it felt like AquaCraft firgured out they're the only motor, so why not raise the price. For Mike to say that he doesn't care what motor we're using -- I'm not believing that. Because of guys like me, we're buying hundreds of motors from them. I personally have purchased over 25 motors since 2010. Two years ago I lost 4 motors going from 45C batteries to 65C batteries. But I've also had several motors go two or three laps and then burn up. If the temperature goes over 135 degrees, I know I need to back off the prop. I run 5 boats every race, 13 times a year, so I know I'm going to have failures. What upsets me is that I could have bought 12 1415-1Y and only used 5 of them over the last 4 years--leaving me 7 still on the shelf. I know for a fact that our club has burned up over 15 this year.

[D. Newland]

And I've told you that you push P-Ltd boats too hard. And that 1415 1Y's are a P motor.

Howard, same with the Leopards you mentioned. P motors. Fantastic for what you are doing, but do you really think that's the way to go? Put 1415 1Y's and Leopards on the P-Ltd list?

Terry-I'm not going to comment on Sean's, Fred's and Tom's racing programs, other than to say I'd like to hear their opinions on this. I do know that Sean continuously hands me my ass in LSH (without any DNF's that I'm aware of, including my Az races). He does very well in P-Ltd Mono, too. And Tom had 11 strong finishes out of 12 heats of P-Ltd Mono, P-Ltd Cat and LSH. Fred was running the Nat's, so I'm not going to even look at his data, but I know he pulled Mr. Offshore at the Cup in 2013.

[ron1950]

I hope there is something that will be worked out for 1/10 scale. I only have a few Proboat motors at 1500kv left and one AQ motor that is approved for this class

you can always use the himax 1500 I beleave

[Grimracer]

we sometimes get accused of lowering the quality and raising the price.. Its a reaction to the cause.. Its like.. (he must be cheating cus he is winning BS)..lol (just not the case at all) Can and does the MFG "Sneak one past us" from time to time.. yep.. they all do. We try to control that best we can AND if this happens we try to get back to where we were as fast as we can.

As for caring or not.. really.. I don't.. I feel more is better and that goes for competition in motors as well. If we decide to chase the leader the leader we will chase.. (ya know.. I like competition too!).. Business or racing.... I do (you would to) find it fun to have your products wining races. (listen.. I am just the boat monkey... "5 pole mike" lol....)

Have fun and at the end of the day.. YOU CHOOSE racing boats.. keep it in perspective.. draw your weapon and pull the throttle!

Grim

On we go..

[PatrickM]

What upsets me is that I could have bought 12 1415-1Y and only used 5 of them over the last 4 years--leaving me 7 still on the shelf.

If 1415-1Y's had been allowed as spec motors, I feel certain that the top-feeder racers would have quickly discovered the limits of Neu quality. The same would be true with any motor which could be specified in a limited classification. This may not be immediately apparent at a club level when only a few are pushing the limits of the motors, but will become much more obvious if racers across the country are all running the same motors. We will always push the equipment beyond its design parameters no matter the source or perceived quality. Unfortunately with the present limited specification, the motor has become the weak link in the chain... this will continue to be the case as long as open ESC's and batteries are allowed. Improving the quality of the motor or limiting the ESC will only turn the speedo into the weak link... the same goes for Lipo's. Choose your poison....

On the plus side, Steve offers a rebuild service for his motors....

[Whitey]

You know, it is possible to stop using motors and controllers as fuses.

A simple, economical fuse can be added to any system. A small fuse block that plugs in between the batteries and the controller can be easily fabbed.

Fuses monitored by the CD would mean:
1. Motors wouldn't need to be spec'd (let everyone use whatever motor they want)
2. Controllers would be equalized (the AQ ESC would be equal to the high dollar ESC, not the make-believe equality that exist now)
3. It would also likely equalize the props used

Everyone would have a limit to the current they draw and how they put it to use is up to them.

You over prop and a $1.50 fuse is blown, not one of those $70 motor/fuses that you are using now.

If you want to tech, fuses can be passed out pre-race and inspected in seconds at the end of heats or races.

[T.S.Davis]

"If you find P-Ltd frustrating and you're unable to "dig" in another spot, I'd rather you just pass on P-Ltd and race P or any other power parameter."

That's what ya said Dave.

I don't need an opinion from Fred, Tom and Sean. The facts are plenty.

One fact is that those guys can get it done in limited. You like numbers. The numbers tell us they got it figured out. Another fact.........those guys.........are having motor failures.

Enough failures that Sean's club is leaving NAMBA limited behind in favor of something else. Doug didn't just decide for his club that they were done with the existing specification.

[Darin Jordan]

You over prop and a $1.50 fuse is blown, not one of those $70 motor/fuses that you are using now.

I'd be interested in seeing how "economical", or practical to fit into the boat, a fuse that can handle 80+ amps continuous is going to be. I've researched, and found that it's NOT so simple as you make it sound.

If you know of something otherwise, please let us know.

[Darin Jordan]

We've been at this point in the discussion before, guys... except back then it was called "LSH/LSO" and LS-IPC...

[Whitey]

42mm x 12mm (about 1/2 in wide and 1 1/2 long). The block to hold it is only slightly larger.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/fi...se_bf1_32v.pdf


There is a time-delay so spikes above the rated value are not going to prematurely blow the fuse.

This price of $5.98 ea for 10 pieces can be way, way under-cut by buying in large volume. I'd bet at a few hundred pieces, the price would be less than half.

http://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Fus...s=BF1+FUSE+32V

Found a better source. $3 each single units. In bulk (like 1000) we are talking $1-$1.50.

[longballlumber]

"If you find P-Ltd frustrating and you're unable to "dig" in another spot, I'd rather you just pass on P-Ltd and race P or any other power parameter."

That's what ya said Dave.

I don't need an opinion from Fred, Tom and Sean. The facts are plenty.

One fact is that those guys can get it done in limited. You like numbers. The numbers tell us they got it figured out. Another fact.........those guys.........are having motor failures.

Enough failures that Sean's club is leaving NAMBA limited behind in favor of something else. Doug didn't just decide for his club that they were done with the existing specification.

So I am curious, what do we do with all of the other racers that ARE NOT blowing up motors? We have guys that are running at/near the top of our club points system this year and in past years that ARE NOT blowing up motors (that I am aware of).

There is only one reason, they are not blowing up stuff... They aren't pushing as hard or as close to the limit.

How many Phil Thomas boats do we have in our club, that run the same prop I started running 2-3 years ago? WHY am I the only one not blowing up motors at the numbers (and rate) you guys are? We run in the same club, same pond, and against the same competition...

I am not hear to suggest there isn't anything to be concerned about. However, I will argue that blowing up motors is an EPIDEMIC!

I haven't heard from any guys on the east coast. Chili and Doug, what about you and your guys, are you blowing up motors to the frequency that is being discussed here?

I know there is a club on the north side of Indy called the Indianapolis Admirals. All of there racing is based off of the RTR offerings from Pro Boat and Aquacraft. Maybe we should be contacting them to see if they are affected by "the plague" everyone is talking about...

http://www.indyadmirals.org/RACE.html

Nitro racing is starting to look better and better to me....

[Darin Jordan]

42mm x 12mm (about 1/2 in wide and 1 1/2 long). The block to hold it is only slightly larger.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/fi...se_bf1_32v.pdf


There is a time-delay so spikes above the rated value are not going to prematurely blow the fuse.

This price of $5.98 ea for 10 pieces can be way, way under-cut by buying in large volume. I'd bet at a few hundred pieces, the price would be less than half.

http://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Fus...s=BF1+FUSE+32V

Found a better source. $3 each single units. In bulk (like 1000) we are talking $1-$1.50.

Interesting, but I'd need to see some ratings for continuous AMPs sustained, and I'd also have to see what the mounting mechanism would look like.

Overcomplicate these setups and people will NOT build them.

I'm not against the idea, just a little leery of the "too good to be true" simplicity being suggested.

This is still just a crutch for most people. I'm NOT in the category of being one who is "burning up motors"... I've had a couple fail, but it was ALWAYS my fault. Pushed them too hard trying to find the limit. Once it's found, we all SHOULD know better than to go there again.

[HTVboats]

Some good points here. I made a statement on another thread that P ltd may not be the best thing for the hobby. I misspoke as Darrin pointed out it is what is growing numbers. My issue is the numbers are just duplication of one power option in every configuration of hull anyone can come up with. So why are there few places other than the "Nationals" to run a full P, Q or above. With one cookie cutter option no one can try similar options available in the marketplace.
I have built a "P" mono with a DF33 and 1515 1Y power. In the few events I have been it holds its own and cost for motor and ESC less than a $200 upgrade over a P lmt. Reality is when someone comes in with a legal P and a 1527 with the Shultze controller needed for 4500 watts I am SOL. In NAMBA P is not limited to one motor as in IMPBA, so costs can get really out of hand. So who's wanting a full P?
Given that this forum is full of guys overpowering their RTR's (Tim the toolman- MORE POWER) with 4084's and or 6S with whatever a few hundred will buy, but they aren't buying $700 MGM's. There are tinkerers out there but not a race class for them. P ltd and P superstock? I know more classes. There coming one way or another.
I like the NZ rules at 36X74 max though I can't see excluding premium motors. The extra hundred for a 1415 Neu is an good investment and won't break the bank with esc requirements. With just a can size limit you have choices and manufacturers can respond if they choose. Easy to inspect and enforce with a caliper. Would this discourage new RTR racers? I think the tinkerers will become the hard and fast racers. Plug and play is the easy way in and the easy way out also. JMO
Mic

How about super "Q" instead with a 40x92 single motor limit to keep costs in line and a place for tinkerers ? keep P ltd where its at

[TheShaughnessy]

I'm gonna try and keep this short. ( but I didn't)
I haven't burnt up a motor in my p ltd cat in two seasons, I'm sitting in second for points in the thunder boat club out here. My boat runs well past 45 mph, so I wouldn't say it's a total slouch. To get me there my amp draw is basically right at 50 amps if not higher and I see spikes well into the 80+amp area. I generally run a 447 turned down a tic or an m445. Temps are not ice cool but definitely manageable. That being said, I often run a fan, I use an additional water cooled heat sink under the motor and sometimes a heat sink off the back of the motor. Weather or not any of that crap provides added cooling is up for debate.

This year I switched from an older PB 1800 to a new AQ 1800, Set up remained the same and I didn't burn the motor, got a little scare though, there was some wispy smoke after the first run on the new motor but I'm fairly certain it was the factory oil in the bearings burning off, motor still runs great.

I also have a 2030 nib. Got cold feat after reading about "reduced motor quality leading to failure" and felt the 1800 was a better option for me.

I don't have a hydro to run but I suspect it can be done without melting stators.

To those burning motors, if they are defective out of the box I can't believe tower wouldn't replace it under warranty, they really stand behind their product. A lot of it is your attitude on the phone. They deal with people all day and can probably detect user error vs manufacture error much the same way a banker can feel a fake bill when thumbing threw a big stack of cash. Imagine you own a business and you get a phone call.. Hey I just burnt 7 of your motors they are pieces of junk!!! In your head you are thinking, wow we've never seen a failure rate like that before. 7 motors and you still didn't figure out it was too much load? Kinda like I crashed five of your cars, not cause I can't drive but because the steering wasn't that good.

In closing I have no issues with the current list of approved motors, I do have a concern there isn't a PB option any longer but I also don't doubt they will release another.

As for nue as a spec, get out of town. Alienates all those with currently approved motors and any new comers. Prop diameter limiting? I've seen several guys go several mph faster without increasing any diameter to their prop so good luck there.

If more motors were on the list that would be great, but they need to be within 5 % of what we currently use or it just starts a new class. The current rules allow for such changes so I'm failing to see the issue here.

If anything I think we should be allowed to add heat shrink down into the can and snip the piece that bundles all the wires together. I've seen several motors fail because of melted heat shrink.

[ray schrauwen]

In my Spec Cat Mrs. Geico this year in Michigan I swapped out the Chinese coupler for an Octura and I saw at least a 10* decfrease in my temps. Little things....

In my LSH I propped down to either a 42mm 2 blade or a M440 x3 blade prop. Not the fastest but, stable and reliable without major heat. Two years ago in MI. I tried running M445 in same boat same setup but, cooked 3 motors and esc's getting only 3 laps out of each setup. My own fault the second one as I dropped prop too deep.

[T.S.Davis]

WHY am I the only one not blowing up motors at the numbers (and rate) you guys are? We run in the same club, same pond, and against the same competition...

Because your boats do 21 laps per month? Plus, which generation of motor are you talking about? A motor that took Pete a couple years to injure was replaced with a motor that survived 6 runs. Pete's not doing anything crazy with his setups that I've seen. Although, without data, that might be a ridiculous statement. Someone could have slipped into his house and changed his setup between motors so that the new motor was drawing another 30 amps or something. Cuz that happens all the time.

The attraction, I think/thought, to limited classes is/was the low cost. Now there are superior motors for the same or less cost but we've boxed ourselves into a corner with the motor spec. There we will stay. I let it happen too. I was part of the process. Blew it. Sorry guys.

Doesn't matter. I'll get out. This will be my last season on them. I clearly don't have the skill to race in such a technically demanding class. Maybe when there are no motors NAMBA will figure out a solution.

It's much like N1. It wasn't until the class was nearly completely uncontested that a change was possible. The argument was EXACTLY the same then.
"You can't make a brushed motor fast because you lack the skill. If you had any ability you wouldn't need a better motor"

DéjÃ*!** vu

Another fun one was LiPo vs NiMh. "you just want to throw power at your setups instead of working them and tweaking them to get the most out of them".
That one also included "we're all gonna die" arguments to add to the joy.

DéjÃ*!** vu

Nayman said it best "it's like pushing a rope"

[Chilli]

I haven't heard from any guys on the east coast. Chili and Doug, what about you and your guys, are you blowing up motors to the frequency that is being discussed here?

We don't really have a dog in this fight so we're staying out of the conversation. But amongst ourselves, we're glade we didnt push to go national in the IMPBA with the P-Limited class otherwise we would be in this delimma also. We're content running the class with regional rules to suit our members. We (D12) don't have as mature a FE program as many of the NAMBA clubs out west and we are not exclusively FE. My newer members start off with the P-Limited classes and after a couple years start looking for a bit more speed. Either buy running in our Open classes or they get a gas boat. But we usually keep a P-Limited or two to support the classes. So far we don't have anyone that want's to win bad enough to push their P-Lim equipment to the point were they are having to buy a handfull of motors at a time. I really try to discourage that. If a racer has that kind of money to burn, they can get a Neu set up and get out of the Limited classes. Have i seen a few UL1 motors burn up? Saw one last week when someone a three blade with crazy pitch on a 20 Whip. Luckily someone had a spare and he switched to a more sensible prop. So that's my perspective on the class. The Limited Classes have different purposes to different clubs. So everyone needs to take care of it's membership. The problem lies when we all want to come together for regional or national events. How can we not have P-Limited classes?

[T.S.Davis]

I tried running M445 in same boat same setup but, cooked 3 motors and esc's getting only 3 laps out of each setup. My own fault the second one as I dropped prop too deep.

See, this is where the class is broken. Ray made a mistake on his setup. Strut too deep. Okay. The boat should have just run poorly. It shouldn't bake a motor on an M445. How is that good for anyone?

[jfrancisco892]

I have not read this entire thread and I know I don't have near the experience of what most people who have chimed in on this thread do, but here is my opinion. P limited boils down to setup and driving. If you try to make your boat go too fast it will burn up the motor, no ifs, ands, or buts.

At the nationals I was running P-Limited sport hydro and was running my normal 45x68 prop which I have never had an issue with on my 2030 motor. Keep in my this is my original UL-1 motor that I started with in the hobby roughly 2.5 years ago. I decided to go with the H7 (47.5x72) and at the end of the fifth lap she gave up the ghost. I knew it was a possibility when I put that prop on so I was not mad or upset in the least bit. That was the first time I have burnt up a motor.

After this I had a conversation with someone and we talked about the motor cooling on the HRC jackets. The elbow fittings are hands down the bottleneck for restricting flow on the water cooling system in my boat. I made some changes to them that I thought would help with flow and my NEW 2030 runs about 15-20 degrees cooler than it used to with the 45x68 (I ran the new motor on the same course with the same prop in very similar water and ambient temperature conditions before and after the elbow modifications).

What I'm getting at is I am now running a "NEW" (you guys think to be bad) 2030 in my Whiplash and to be honest I like it more than my "OLD" style 2030 UL-1 motor. It is extremely easy to plop one of these motors in your boat run a relatively huge prop burn a motor and get pissed. Everyone is dealing with the same equipment so why whine about it. IMO the beauty of spec racing is that everyone has the same motor and the best tuner/driver/hull setup will win.

[Doug Smock]

I haven't heard from any guys on the east coast. Chili and Doug, what about you and your guys, are you blowing up motors to the frequency that is being discussed here?

Hi Mike,
I have been reading but was not going to post. My opinion on this isn't popular with some, and I didn't want to start a poop storm. You guys have been having a good discussion.

As far as I know we have had one motor failure in D-13 in the 4+ years we have been running the classes. I tossed a magnet on a 2030.
Rick Beardon had the only control AQ control to lay down as far as I know. It just quit, servo worked fine but nobody home. Both of these were in O/B Tunnels.

[Doug Smock]

In NAMBA P is not limited to one motor as in IMPBA, so costs can get really out of hand. So who's wanting a full P?

Hey Mic,
You can run any motor in the IMPBA P class.

Very sorry for the mini hijack fellas.

Good post Chili.

[D. Newland]

"If you find P-Ltd frustrating and you're unable to "dig" in another spot, I'd rather you just pass on P-Ltd and race P or any other power parameter."

That's what ya said Dave.

I don't need an opinion from Fred, Tom and Sean. The facts are plenty.

One fact is that those guys can get it done in limited. You like numbers. The numbers tell us they got it figured out. Another fact.........those guys.........are having motor failures.

Enough failures that Sean's club is leaving NAMBA limited behind in favor of something else. Doug didn't just decide for his club that they were done with the existing specification.

Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

Terry-There's more to the story than motor failures with Peterson and Sean's group. Also, what's going on with your reading comprehension lately? You're usually spot on with this stuff. I'm not asking for you to get Tom's, Sean's and Fred's opinions, I'm asking for them. From them.

And, yes, I stand by what I said above. I respect you as a racer and as an active member in your club, NAMBA, as well as our friendship. I know I've stepped on some toes, but my intentions are to help racing and to keep what I consider a precious piece of P-Ltd intact.

With that said, you're not willing to "dig". Pags saw the light. I'd rather you not take the easy way out. Remember your first test run in Az back in February? Burned motor. What were the first words out of your mouth? It must be the water in Az's fault.

Can I help provide another spot to "dig"? Not just directed at Terry, but for anybody? I'll gladly put up detailed P-Ltd set up in formation on the Tips/Tricks section of this forum. For racers burning equipment, I'd rather they spend time dissecting their race programs and develop a different approach than drop out of P-Ltd, assuming you actually want to race in that Power Parameter.

You call this "pushing rope". I call this (per a PM I received), you can lead a horse to water...you know the rest.

[RandyatBBY]

My interest is in finding additional motors to add to the list. I did start the P LSH class with Dan Chase and in put from Andy Kunz and introduced the current P LTD motor idea in the 2008 Nats. I do not want to make waves in the current setup. I feel that the class could have a better more stable leopard/SS motor, but it must not over power the UL-1, i.e. just be the same more or less and not be as prone to newbie failures.
We have about 20 guys in D9 in FE and race our classes with the Nitro/gas guys. We are in the process of voting in the FE classes to be on the books and changing the rules would just confuse things. there for I will watch and wait for additional motors to see how they work out.