NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

[D. Newland]

To not clog up Peterson's post, I want to start a fresh one. Probably should be in the NAMBA/IMPBA section, but can we roll with it here for a bit, please?

Peterson's thread

More in a minute...

[D. Newland]

When we drafted P-Ltd in 2009/2010, I really thought it would last 3 years before it needed a major rule overhaul. Every year, Terry would mention (still mentions) something to the effect that motor production will soon end...

Here we are, closing the end of the 2014 racing season, and the popularity is still growing. P-Ltd Cat, in basically 2 years, dang near overtook LSH in #of entries at the Nat's. Even if every motor on the list went extinct today, I bet most have enough personal supply to run P-Ltd boats, in one form or another, for a few more years.

But, there are growing pains, too. For some. Most? Maybe. Maybe not. The internet tends to focus on the negative voice more than the positive voice. Either way, it's obviously time for a discussion. But, Terry, for the record, you can still order the original SV 27 motor! And I'll concede that you'll be right. Some day.

Take a look at these 2014 Nat's statistics. What do you see? If it didn't format correctly, check back in a minute.

....................P Ltd and P comparison at the 2014 Nationals


Class.......................Fast Time........Boat DNF’s.............Racers finishing all 4 rounds

P Mono................. 1:32.....................42%...................... ....................23%
P-Ltd Mono............1:47.................... 38%..........................................38%

P Hydro................ 1:09.....................44%...................... ....................50%
P-Ltd Hydro...........1:14.................... 25%..........................................45%

P Sport.................1:27.....................54% ..........................................15%
P-Ltd Sport............1:30....................29%...... .....................................30%

P Cat....................1:45.....................45 %...........................................20%
P-Ltd Cat...............1:54.....................44%.... ......................................19%

P Offshore........35 ½ laps for 1st place, Highest heat lap count: 12
P-Ltd Offshore..32 ¼ laps for 1st place, Highest heat lap count: 11

Boats that DNF'd/Total entries for above classes

P...........73/156 = 47% DNF
P Ltd.....107/304 = 35% DNF


It covers a lot of ground. First off, of those classes, P-Ltd fielded twice as many boats than P. It also has a lower/better DNF %. And, at least with a few of the classes, the heat times were quite close.

That is why I want to protect the P-Ltd motor list, unless a "no brainer" comes along. That, and the fact that we still have a number of guys that like it the way it is. If you introduce a new motor to the list, you in essence are telling them to start testing again and get ready to spend some more money. Some will, most won't, but all will be thinking about it...Is that fair to them? And don't forget about the guys with the RTRs...Especially the Cat's.

For those that think a more reliable motor should be on the list, how long will it take Terry to push it, burn it, then back off a hair? How much closer will he be to P speeds and times?

IMO, better you just bow out of P-Ltd and run another Power Parameter. When the entries start to fall, it will be easy to see the problem is real rather than perceived. And, P could use the entries, and some solid P setups at that.

I will keep supporting P-Ltd racing. IMO it has done more for FE than anything else. Even with a few motor replacements, it's a bargain. The hull selection is there, the speeds are adequate, and the ability to learn tuning (and more tuning) is endless.

[JimClark]

Pro boat is drastically changing their offerings so doesn't there have to be some change somewhere?
Course I don't know if, when or what they will replace them with

[PatrickM]

The lack of PB offerings will mainly affect the NAMBA and ERCU 1/10th Scale classes. Although, I'm sure it will be an unpopular option for a number of reasons, the Classic Thunder organization has been running alternate spec motors for a few years with no problems.

[JimClark]

fully aware of that Patrick ERCU only allows the 1500kv and CT allows them in one or two of their three divisions of 1/10th scale. The namba racer's out here do use the proboat motors in several classes

[PatrickM]

Must be lots of Darin fans up that way, LOL.... around these parts, the PB motors are used mainly in the 1/10ths, very few in other NAMBA classes. My point is that the PB's have readily replaceable options needing only a simple rule change. No research or debate required. That being said, someone will try to argue the point....

[T.S.Davis]

I'm not sure your stats are relevant Dave. You can draw more than one conclusion from them.

By the numbers, there's little difference in time. The big difference, by the numbers, is that the P limited boat will finish. So you can buy an AQ for about $80 or say a 2200kv Leopard motor that may be better but the boat wont finish and you get to run the same speed (close)..........soooooo why do we need P limited at all? There is no advantage to full P classes according to the numbers. Not faster and less likely to finish. So run all the motors together. The P limited will win by finishing as the setups are more reliable per the numbers.

The motor list currently includes only 2 motors that are still in production as far as I know. Maybe when it's one we'll discuss it.

I'll think on it Dave. Maybe I'll drop limited from my race program. I'm sure my club will be glad to be rid of me.

[ron1950]

so if dynamite keeps making the 1500 and 1800 motors great but if not and pb replacement motors are not allowed you sure killed the choises for p limited classes...aq motors are not my favorite for sure.... now, what is out there besides dropping out of p limited classes sence no motors may be available

[Doby]

Yes..lets all drop P-limited classes....Lets take the most popular classes and get rid of them

Brilliant decision to grow the hobby.

Spec the can size and put a max KV rating allowed per a manufacturers spec...its not that difficult. If someone is worried about "honesty" at races, the winning motors could probably be verified somehow, and if someone gets caught cheating...then banned for life!

[darryl whitman]

OK guys , some one plz tell me what , P spec class is,
then what P Limited class is , I need to know.

[Todd Fleury]

I hope there is something that will be worked out for 1/10 scale. I only have a few Proboat motors at 1500kv left and one AQ motor that is approved for this class

[T.S.Davis]

Brilliant decision to grow the hobby.

Exactly my point.

I've thought on it. I still want to run a limited class where at least some parity can be had. I'm not certain what our club will do but I think I'm done with the P limited by the book after this season. That will be up to them as a group.

Our gang placed 4 guys in the top 10 at the nationals. They had to perform well in the limited classes to do that. So by the numbers, apparently, limited WAS for them. All but one of those 4 guys has had motors fail on them this summer. Some more than one. Again, on setups that they've run for years.

Darryl, P limited is basically 4s setups with motors from RTR boats. The RTR motors that are legal are listed in the NAMBA rule book. The debate starts over reliability/repeatability and ends with the fact that of the motors on the list there are only 2 that are still being manufactured.

Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".

[Rumdog]

I have no dog in this fight since I do not race, but it really seems that the p limited motors work well only for their intended purpose.. In rtr boats with rtr setups. They're kinda just junk, really. As much as you guys go thru them, might as well use a quality Neu of the same size/ kv range.

[Grimracer]

I don’t Race FE boats anymore and really don’t care all that much what motors end up on the list.. BUT.. I hope NAMBA and the racers don’t forget the reason this PLTD class came about.

I have never thought as this as a "beginners" class but a "like" class with "like" power systems that were easily available everyplace regardless of HULL type or MFG.. Am I wrong.. Its OK if you say have this wrong.. (I just might)

Looks like that has been working too..
I feel Doug might not happy with the numbers of guys getting into FE racing in his dist.. (I don’t blame him… I don’t blame the motors). FE might not be the second coming some have stated it is slated to be! I too see light numbers at those races in all power types.
Maybe its time for change.. maybe not.. but as long as there is a race.. we WILL push the limits of the motors WELL past there engineered specs. What happens when those "new" motors start doing the same thing as the motors we have now.. Do you REALLY think they won’t? Why spec new motors (And a prop) what ARE" you trying to avoid? O yea.. I know.. the same "Issue" we have now.
I hope however that whatever comes out of this that it continues to hold good numbers and hopefully grow too!
I say the FE guys know what’s best.. as long as its not a lack of winning that’s driving the questions but the better for the org.
Good luck and I/we support your decisions.
Grimracer

[Darin Jordan]

Just to provide some facts for this discussion, the Dynamite motors that Pro Boat had been using will NO LONGER be available. They've been discontinued.

So, as far as the rules are concerned, P-LTD has, for all intensive purposes, become "P-AquaCraft"...

Carry-On...

[DPeterson]

Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

[Grimracer]

Doug,
make them all puplic.. 12 is alot and maybe we can all learn from them..

Grim

[madmikepags]

p spec racing is great, I love the competition, but I am one of the guys who blows up motors, setups? over propping? driving style? probably all of the above and all my fault, but the fact is that if we spec 1 good quality motor you can run that 1 motor for years. Dave I know you are getting a couple of seasons from these motors but you are not the norm! you are also not the norm when it comes to racing, you and your boats are some of the best we have all seen you take lots of time with setup and testing and really know your stuff. That being said most people dont do that or dont have the time. Me myself, only race 6-8 times a year and practice 3-4 more times, that is not a lot, but I have a pretty descent fleet and do OK at big races (but not in p-ltd classes) I should drop P-ltd from my program because I don't have the time to get my setups "right". I have enough other boats to keep me busy anyway!!!!

Now a few questions? Out of curiosity can we get a manufacturer (NEU) or anyone else to build a motor to "our specs" nothing crazy but strong and reliable??? Would any of you pay $150-200 for a spec motor that would last you 5 or more years? Thats less than $50 a year. How many actual p spec "Racers" or maybe the ? should be how many p-spec "race boats" are actually out there? 100-300-500? how many were entered at the nats? 80-100? we know they are not all on this board but how could we find this out?
I am just asking questions I am not really saying that we need to change the rules, I know how hard Dave works as FE chairman and changing rules is a process.

[ray schrauwen]

I'd like to know what Tower hobbies has to do with it Doug? Sorry for my ignorance...

Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

I like Spec classes more now because I gave up on pushing the limit of speed after cooking 2 motors and esc's a couple of years ago. I just prop down now drive as best I can and hope for a bit of attrition from the guys pushing the envelope. I find it a fun class that is more relaxing than open classes.

If it comes down to 2 motors to choose from, that could become a problem but, is it a problem yet? I don't think so so why don't we wait and see what happens to Proboat in the near future?

Getting anyone's panties in a wad now isn't going to do anything but, put people off in the long run.

Long live spec classes!

That said, the guys in OZ have adopted 1P racing with motors like Leopard, TP, etc but, not NEU so much as far as I know. Even in Quebec they sort of adopted this style too and it seems to be a nice in between Scenario that does appeal to me but, not to many others in here it seems.

If people want to cut down the number of classes I wonder if 1P open classes would be the answer? Just thinking out load... By the numbers above it seems like all the extra money and equipment for 4S open classes seems almost pointless.

Eventually things will change, to what I dunno?

[madmikepags]

Ray I run everything 1P except offshore classes so the 1P is not really limiting anything. What our club did was limit the amp rating on the batteries, no more than 200 continuous amps so you can run a 40C 5000mah or a 50C 4000mah on all N2 and P classes. Basically we all run the turnigy 40C 5000's 2S pack costs $23. It's not a great way but it has kept our costs down and the competition close.

[RandyatBBY]

Motor reliability is really important. I have some 4 and 5 year old motors and they run great (55/52MPH Hydro). Frank one of the guys in my district. (that I have been trying to entice in to FE racing) He has a P LTD Sport that I set up just like my boat and he has burned up 4 or 5 motor. All were the AQ 2030kv and 1800kv. Watching this I was wondering if the quality of the motors went down? Is there such a thing besides Neu's that last now in 2014? I deal with a lot of customers that like to keep it on a budget. I also do too.

[madmikepags]

Ray I run everything 1P except offshore classes so the 1P is not really limiting anything. What our club did was limit the amp rating on the batteries, no more than 200 continuous amps so you can run a 40C 5000mah or a 50C 4000mah on all N2 and P classes. Basically we all run the turnigy 40C 5000's 2S pack costs $23. It's not a great way but it has kept our costs down and the competition close.

[D. Newland]

...Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".

...For me. I'll push a motor until it breaks. Some of you have seen me do it. More than once. Did it recently with the Proboat 1800's. Baked one of those Saturday as a matter of fact. I wanted to know how far I could push before the smoke exits the can. Found it. We'll dial back from there. Now if there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory I'll never find the edge. Motor A and motor B from the same manufacturer aren't the same. SS1 motors anyone?...

Not entirely user error, I made that clear in my post on Doug's thread, but you kind of just made my argument. I may know you better than you know yourself. If you get your hands on a better quality P-Ltd motor, your issues won't be solved until you take a close look at your mentality towards your setups, testing/tuning and racing. Come on, T. I'm just looking for a tad bit of personal accountability. That's all. Don't make me search all your threads discussing equipment you have turned crispy.

[RandyatBBY]

[QUOTE=Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
...Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis
...For me. I'll push a motor until it breaks. Some of you have seen me do it. More than once. Did it recently with the Proboat 1800's. Baked one of those Saturday as a matter of fact. I wanted to know how far I could push before the smoke exits the can. Found it. We'll dial back from there. Now if there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory I'll never find the edge. Motor A and motor B from the same manufacturer aren't the same. SS1 motors anyone?...[/QUOTE]

Not entirely user error, I made that clear in my post on Doug's thread, but you kind of just made my argument. If you get your hands on a better quality P-Ltd motor, your issues won't be solved until you take a close look at your mentality towards your setups, testing/tuning and racing. .

This is just what I was talking about. If there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory can we find a solution?

[D. Newland]

Randy-I may not be understanding your question. Can you re-phrase it?

Hey Mike-Thanks for your comments and I can appreciate your situation. Really I do.

[Darin Jordan]

Guys, let's try to be realistic about the nature of racers. We are GOING to find the limits of ANY motor that is allowed. You can put whatever artificial or real limitations you like, someone, somewhere, is going to make one fail.

I think the goal should be to have a list of approved motors or allowed motors that are:

1) Readily available
2) Not "cost prohibitive".
3) All reasonably competitive.
4) Offers KV options to allow a variety of hull-types
5) Offer reasonable reliability when used within accepted parameters

I'm not sure what more one could expect. If ALL of the motors on the list met these basic requirements, then the class will be fine. If you allow ONE motor that is a $250.00 Neu, and another that is a $30.00 Hobbywing, then I think you'll fun into problems, as the inherent quality of one would, in itself, be a competitive advantage, so I do think that overall cost is important, and I'd keep that in mind as I'm working up a list.

Pro Boat WILL have another motor offering at some point here.

As long as Pro Boat, Aquacraft, TFL, and other RTR manufactures are selling boats, there will be additional motors. However, David helped to factor that point of fact into the existing rules, by putting in the "CD's discretion " part. That would at least make it possible for another motor, not on the list, to go through a testing in competition process prior to be submitted to "management" to consider for an "approved motor list" update.

[photohoward1]

I hate spec and run it begrudgingly. I cannot suggest an AQ motor to a newby. For $80 they get frustrated at the quality. A leopard 4072 or 4080 is way more reliable than the spec approved motors. Yes more powerful but more bang for the buck. For the same cost a spec rigger with the leopard will go 60 plus all day and not break a sweat. Your LSH boat too and a DF33". Same price more reliable and more speed. The original idea was to keep the cost down. Jump to 2014 and there are better options than a 36mm motor.

[Grimracer]

I am quite sure.. as a matter of fact 100% sure.. they all have a "tolerance" associated with performance and assembly…
Truth is from the shaft dia to the coating on the windings.. to the epoxy holding the magnets.. they all have a tolerance.
So you know I am not picking on FE our Nitro motors do too.. Just imagine.. a thou out here and a thou out there and we have stacking tolerances. Piston 1/10thou out and the liner 1/10 under.. the rod .001 longer and the piston pin hole…….. you get the idea.
Same deal with FE motors. The wire coating a tick thicker the mags a tad thinner. The mags at such a gauss the shaft such a hardness.. the bearings pickled with that oil…
Not to mention.. issues that come up IN the mfg process. New people, new machines, new supplies, humidity or the lack of it.. left not right.. Im sure you understand
At the end of the day… no matter what you purchased from grills to cars.. they are all subject to “tolerance”
Yum.. grills.. that reminds me.. need to fire up the grill tonight!
Grim

[T.S.Davis]

That wont be necessary. I'm pretty open about that. I never dreamed that being open about finding the edge and sharing it with people would come back to haunt me but I guess it has. I don't race that far out to the edge but I know where it is. If a guy asks you at your pond "how much prop can I run?" Do you know where the envelope is? I do. Accept for the 2030. My knowledge base of that motor is null and void.

How do you explain the failures of the guy Randy setup to run just like his personal boat that he's got a 4 year old motor in?
Or how about these guys:
Peterson
Kewley
Siewert
Castellani
Pete Z.
Joe Kaz

Just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Fred and Tom were top 5 overall I think. Are those guys just not doing it right too? Fred lost a 2030 last month and doesn't want to buy another. What for? So he can get 4 to 6 heats out of it?

Heck, Joe has documented every single run since I've known him. He's started another book. The old one was full. So he's the opposite extreme of the way I do it......still burned one.

Pete has been working on the perfect turn fin for months. Thinner thinner thinner change the shape a little. Change it again. Different curvature. Tweak tweak tweak for a half MPH at a time. They're starting to add up too. Burnt.

Fun with numbers. We like numbers. My boats race once per month but get laps on them for practice usually twice per week. We try to get two runs in. So my boats are in the water approximately 19 runs per month. My son and I both run. We have 6 boats we race/run regularly. Lets say it's actually only 15 times a month for each boat. 15 runs x 6 boat at 7 laps average is 630 laps per month that my setups are doing each month. It's likely more because of offshore. How many guys can say they're gear runs 630 laps of limited a month? Personal accountability? I have a tad. You make it sound like I have a "burn em if you got em" approach to racing and that simply isn't the case. My boats don't bake a motor every time they hit the water Dave. You can't turn a 100 laps a month with a setup and burn up a motor every time you hit the water.

I know/knew which motors I can/could push and don't run those I can't anymore. Now nobody has a choice because there are only 2 left. One of the two I don't trust so that leaves just one motor.

[RandyatBBY]

I hate spec and run it begrudgingly. I cannot suggest an AQ motor to a newby. For $80 they get frustrated at the quality. A leopard 4072 or 4080 is way more reliable than the spec approved motors. Yes more powerful but more bang for the buck. For the same cost a spec rigger with the leopard will go 60 plus all day and not break a sweat. Your LSH boat too and a DF33". Same price more reliable and more speed. The original idea was to keep the cost down. Jump to 2014 and there are better options than a 36mm motor.

And is the quality the same from motor to motor if pushed to the max then dialed back a little? It is a $93 dollar motor. If we tried to match performance of the present list would a Leopard 3674 1900kv be about the same ?