Looking for motor ideas

[T.S.Davis]

I wish that was true Doug. It would be so much easier.

Revolts finished first and second in offshore after a whole season of racing in our club. I don't think our skill level is in question.

We can't ignore "new guy". Relegating him to a just an SV class or something isn't going to set the hook. Or is it?

[Whitey]

Thanks Darin, another option. Hate to say it - looks too good of quality. I sure like the KV.

Good luck to you guy's trying to figure out your P-Limited dilema. IMO as soon as you seperate RTR beginner classes from Limited Spec classes you will get somewhere.

There simply is not a RTR boat available that is properely designed or built for racing in P-Limited. When a guy brings a Supervee, Revolt or Impulse and races against a Pursuit or Delta Force he gets his butt handed to him. When he brings a ULI and races against a Whiplash or a Thomas, same thing. When he brings a Stillhetto and races against a PS295 or Woodstuff same thing. Get the picture?

Then when he gets back to his shop he has to replace the drive line, fix the servo mount, take the hook out of the hull, buy competitive batteries etc, etc. If he hits something - oh gosh - its over. Sorry - it's not the cost of the boat or the motor that is the issue.

Nothing against the RTR's. Its a beginners boat. Thats it, nothing more. Last time I ran one I was 16 years old. 40 some years ago.

Carry on gents.

Doug,

Exactly. Have true beginners classes. Separate the hull types if enough show up. Run them together as a "Run What You Brung" class, if necessary.

Then have limited power classes as just that (and not some make believe "beginner" class).

If that is done, why not spec a Neu motor? About 1/5 of the country is either unemployed or under-employed and for a minor amount of money (in terms of what a typical model boater spends) the choice is to spend money overseas rather then in the U.S.A.? Not to mention that the Neu would still likely have some edge in the max wattage handling/reliability department.

[Doby]

I wish that was true Doug. It would be so much easier.

Revolts finished first and second in offshore after a whole season of racing in our club. I don't think our skill level is in question.

We can't ignore "new guy". Relegating him to a just an SV class or something isn't going to set the hook. Or is it?

At last years P-Shootout, Pags and I were tied for laps going into the 5th heat of LSO...he with his Titan and me with my stock Revolt.

[Darin Jordan]

Two comments:

1) I call BS on the notion that the IM31 or the Revolt can't compete with DF or Pursuit. More evidence to the contrary than to support.
2) A "beginner's class" implies a steady stream of new racers. We "ain't got that". Our entire local club class roster is P-LTD... One from each hull type plus Offshore. We race together and the "beginners" move along fine with some racing experience and time.

Motor type shouldn't dictate interest or skill level assumed.

[chris]

Another option will be , to limit battery to 1-p 5000 mah which equals around 65 Amp draw in 4 min race

Chris

[T.S.Davis]

Please please tell me there isn't anyone that believes we have the numbers for a full compliment of bone stock beginner classes AND a full compliment of P limited classes.

[Darin Jordan]

Doug,

I'm going to bow out of this conversation from a "let's discuss P-LTD rules" standpoint. I'm content to just continue to race the boats I feel like racing, and let the chips fall where they may. You guys tell me what the rules are and I'll build boats to fit, if it makes sense for me to do so. Otherwise, the classes will go where they go. I have much more fun racing FEWER boats anyhow. I'm more competitive that way!

As for the motor recommendation... You are probably right. Those Typhoon motors are definitely very good quality. Brian pushed one to 119 mph and change in his P-Hydro at the SAW, and there is more there. But, you have to admit that the price is pretty much inline... $115.00 is right there.

I think what a group needs to do is simply go through the market place and put together a list of acceptable motors based on their basic parameters and let the chips fall where they may. Some will be faster, some won't, but in the end, the race results will be the same. There is SO much more to this than just the motors, and most FE guys don't take the time to actually tune anyhow. They "copy-cat" whatever the fast guys are doing, from a part-number perspective. However, that's how we ALL likely started, and eventually some will move up, learn to tune for themselves, and perhaps one day become the "fast-guy".

Either that, or just pick ONE motor and make everyone run that? If you do that, then picking the "better quality" one isn't a bad idea.

[DPeterson]

LOL. Like I said in my first post - not going to debate P-Limited. Our decision has been made. We are going back to the original intent of LSH, LSO and LS OPC. Just looking for the motor to replace the SS1 700.

Darin - is the typhoon a closed motor? Can't seem to tell. We will be wanting an open motor so we can clean out the OPC's.

The Hobbyking is another interesting option. $50.00. Just don't trust the China Cha Cha Ching thing.

So far I am liking the TP's I have ordered. I'll probably order a few 1900 KV as well to get a good comparison. Getting really good communications from TP as well.

[longballlumber]

Along with this we are looking at a max prop diameter of say 46mm.

I am interested in hearing the theory on limiting prop diameter and how did you come up with 46mm without knowing the capabilities/limitations of the motor?

Later,
Ball

[T.S.Davis]

We are going back to the original intent of LSH, LSO and LS OPC.

Sorry Doug, which was?

Are you getting TP motors or Thunderpower motors? Not the same thing.

[DPeterson]

Terry - My bad. I assumed TP was short for Thunder Power. Don't really care. I have TP's coming.

Mike - We will be targeting to spin the prop somewhere between 27,000 and 29,000 rpm. The 2100 kv @ 14v is 29,400, 2000 kv @ 14v is 28,000 and the 1900 kv @ 14v is 26,600. Our current revolutions along with the 45 mm props most of us run has provided speeds between 45 and 55 mph. We are looking to maintain the same speeds. With a better motor we will be eliminating the weak fuse. Therefore to keep a lid on things we will probably limit the prop diameter. I am just preliminarly picking 46mm as this is one tick above our favorite 45mm's.

We will still be able to cut down 47's 48's and even 50's to see what we can achieve. Going to bring some testing fun back into it. I'll be turning down a pipe for our prop gauge. If it doesn't fit in the pipe you can't run it.

Our expections are to run these new motors for a year or two just like we did the SS1's. We'll decide when too replace it - not going let the motor decide.

So - thanks for all that contributed the motor ideas. I think we are set. Doug

[madmikepags]

Hey terry just want to chime in, I think spec class racing is great but like everyone has said the "spec" motors need to be more reliable, thats why I suggested the NEU. (not really expecting the rules to change to allow a NEU its just a thought and dream?) I think we can agree that spec class racing is really not "beginner or novice" racing especially with many boats going over 50mph.
What our club has done is we picked a boat (motley crew and lucas oil) and we run it "BOX STOCK" you can change the coupler, shaft, connectors and radio if you want, but cant change any of the running gear or prop and cannot sand or blueprint the hull. This is our most popular class among newbies and veteran racers, with between 12-14 entries at every race and we race for 10 laps!!! I think that this gives the newbies a place to race and don't have to go out there and tune their boat to run 50mph like the experienced racers do. Also the experienced racers can run in this class and the newbies get a chance to race against more experienced drivers where there is no speed or tuning advantage. This class is so great that most boats finish on the same lap and we have different winners in every heat (newbie and veteran).
Even though there is the most and probably the best competition in spec racing I personally will never run a spec boat again (nats or local) unless the motors change, to much higher quality units. My kids will still run them but I will do it begrudgingly.

[Darin Jordan]

Mike - We will be targeting to spin the prop somewhere between 27,000 and 29,000 rpm. The 2100 kv @ 14v is 29,400, 2000 kv @ 14v is 28,000 and the 1900 kv @ 14v is 26,600.

Doug, Just so you are calculating correctly, you need to consider what the ACTUAL RPM is under load, not what the calculated KV * Voltage will give you.

For example, an AQ2030 (as we've already established, only around 1865KV in reality), turns around 28,000 on the bench, but under load is closer to 21,000... IF you haven't overloaded it. Same with the PB 1800...

It's THIS RPM that matters when it comes to determining speeds.

OH, and for what it's worth, limiting prop diameter is pointless... It's kind of like limiting the amount of paralleling one can do. It's a "feel good" limitation that, in practice, has no practical effect.

[DPeterson]

My KV rpm comparison is just reference points. I understand under load rpm's versus speed. Not going to get too scientific about it. No need to. Going to install some motors of different KV ratings and run them.

I am not understanding your prop limiting point. Please enlighten me.

Pags - Thanks - I was starting to feel lonely. :)

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, you're not alone. I get it. Lot's of us get it. My budget get's it. Some of us are concerned that the baby will get tossed out with the water. I'm still not sure what you feel LSH, LSO, LOPC were originally intended to be. I am NOT mad at ya. Some will be confused. I'll buzz ya on the commute.

I'm pretty sure Randy Naylor's club proposed LSH in or around 2003. Maybe 2004. Pre-SS1 motors. Graupner Neo 9.6 and 8.4BB days. Remember those?

Mike, we did that with SV's. Box stock. We even spec'd batteries. Those are truly equal boats. It's all setup and driving. They're not super fast but they're still fun to race. We have prop hand outs for those. Most heats everyone is a half lap apart.

Odd that we're hearing nothing from either organizations chairmen. hmmm Although, IMPBA has no P limited so no biggy to them.

[Doby]

I suppose that if either organization (or club) adapts a set of "spec" motors, that fine...as long as we can race the current batch of "approved" motors if we ever happen to attend one of those clubs events. Hate to have to change out all my current (no pun intended) motors.

[Doby]

Another option will be , to limit battery to 1-p 5000 mah which equals around 65 Amp draw in 4 min race

Chris

That would be another great equalizer....amp hogs wouldn't last 4 minutes on 5000mAh.

I run a single 5800 mah pack and have 25% left after a 4 minute race + a mil lap on my stock Revolt.

[JimClark]

Seems like this is a never ending problem maybe specs like KV, number of poles can size then you can buy what motor is currently on the market within the specs?

[Doug Smock]

78 posts on limited motors and everyone is on an even keel. AWESOME!

Good discussion fellas.

[Darin Jordan]

My KV rpm comparison is just reference points. I understand under load rpm's versus speed. Not going to get too scientific about it. No need to. Going to install some motors of different KV ratings and run them.

Doug, I understand, but the reason I mention it is because you can have two motors, both the same EVERYTHING, but under the same load, one might pull down to 19,000, the other to 21,000... that's a huge difference in speed capability, and really takes the lower one out of the "competitive" realm.

I am not understanding your prop limiting point. Please enlighten me.

If you call and talk to Jim Schafer at ABC Props, you'll have more enlightening than you probably wish to get... Basically, if you take two flat discs... one 40mm... one 50mm... and spin them through the water, are you going to notice a difference in thrust, drag, etc??

It's not the diameter that, by itself, makes any difference... it increases the blade area, etc., but the important part is the pitch and pitch ratio. If you limit the prop diameter, some of us can pretty easily make up for anything lost in other areas...

It's not really a limitation, is what I'm trying to suggest...

[D. Newland]

I'll start another thread about P-Ltd Rules as Doug really didn't want to have that conversation with this thread. But, seeing nearly 1000 hits, there's obviously interest. Give me a day or so and I'll have something up.

We're capable of a constructive conversation about it, seeing that P-Ltd has given us probably more years and better racing than anyone could have imagined back in 2008/2009 when we started scribbling on cocktail napkins. It deserves that respect.

A few comments on this thread, though.

Maybe I'm naïve about the current motor quality slump. I have certainly heard about it. I bought 2 new motors for the Nat's early this year and tested with care because of what I had heard. Propped down, any new motor being run was back at the table after testing for 1 minute, the whole 9. Turns out they worked for me. I ran my typical H7 on my rigger, 1445 on my sport, 45/55 on my mono and OPC at the Nats. Same setups I've run for a long time now. No problems. Well, possibly 1 issue. I noticed an inner winding on my OPC motor was turning color after a heat, so I swapped it out for another motor. Not sure when it happened, but I wanted to be safe. Not even sure if it was a newer motor.

Many of us (me included) got bit in 2009/2010 with the 2030 motors throwing magnets. I lost 2 rather quickly and then started a 1 man campaign to get the 12 L motor tested to see if it was worthy of "the list". I got a few calls about my setups and about the recent QC issues. I calmed down and got back on track (dropping my 1 man campaign) because the big picture came back in focus. If I start messing with P-Ltd for my benefit, I'm going to upset someone that has spent time and money figuring it out.

They don't want their yum yucked.

Most of you know how much I race. I lose, maybe, 1 motor a year. Since 2009, I have lost only 2 motors in the heat of competition. The 2009 Gas Nat's (P-Ltd Rigger), and 2013 Winter Warmups P-Ltd Cat.

So, Howard, Doug, Terry, Mike (and anyone else), why am I not having issues? Am I lucky? Cheating? Am I a rocket surgeon in this hobby?

More importantly, do you have the humility to really ask yourselves why you are having issues? If your response is, "these motors are junk", then you're taking the easy way out.

Another fact. If you're having trouble with P-Ltd, then you're having trouble with other power parameters as well. Maybe not burn problems, but other problems.

There isn't 1 racer that is killing it in N-2, P, Q and/or T, and just completely chunking P-Ltd classes.

The issue is bigger than the P-Ltd motor list.

Have you spent as much time (or more) analyzing your own racing program rather than blaming the motor list for your failures and disappointment?

Do you know what the definition of Insane is?

I want more to succeed. Maybe you're happy with where you're at in this hobby, but I don't think you are. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. Everything is right in front of you, I just think you're not digging in the right place. I'll help in the other post I make.

IMO, the number of top tier racers in FE should be 3 times as big as it is because so many are right there, they are just missing a piece or two of the puzzle. And, it's not because of the P-Ltd motor list. Why? Because some of us are still having good success with it as-is. I know, it's not perfect, but it's still working.

Here's a fact. We're pushing these motors WELL above their design parameters. Even if the latest batch of motors is 10% worse than the previous batch, they still are pushed WELL above their design parameters. Yes, it's frustrating that you burn motors with the same prop you could use on the previous batch, but that may just be the way P-Ltd is going to be.

If you find P-Ltd frustrating and you're unable to "dig" in another spot, I'd rather you just pass on P-Ltd and race P or any other power parameter. They could use the entries.

There's been some good information in this thread about the type of mentality it takes to race P-Ltd classes (some trying to run 55 mph with a 50 mph motor, for instance). There's also some piss-poor information/racing mentality (Terry's P-Ltd motor testing philosophy).

I challenge you (and anyone that is having issues with the P-Ltd classes) to really look inside yourselves, swallow your pride and eat a piece of humble pie so to speak, to find the answer to your problem. The motor list is only partly to blame. Your approach to P-Ltd racing is mostly to blame.

[madmikepags]

I actually love the competition in spec racing but I'm one of the guys always at the limit so I end up burning up motors, so I'm just not gonna race em anymore, It's my own fault I know it is but I'm just gonna bow out of spec racing for the time being.

[madmikepags]

Hey Dave you are pretty much spot on, with me at least, I push and overprop an burn, like I said my own fault. I know.

[DPeterson]

Dave - thanks for moving the discussion. I was going to ask but didn't want to be rude. I got what I was looking for with my originial post.

Darin - prop work is what I am personally looking forward too. It will be somewhat of a new area for me. Although I already understand what makes a prop work - we are discussing doing this under a stated diameter.

Just for clarity, the motors utilized for P-limited racing is not the only reason we are moving on. It is a big reason but one of many.

In the Midwest we run mainly IMPBA. We travel anywhere from 2 hours up to 6 hours, once to twice per Month to race. I can tell you that there are as many racers turned off by P-Limited electrics as you all assume are thrilled about it. We keep finding small groups/clubs running the motor of their choice and they are not the current approved P-Limited motors.

Besides hanging on to a few Limited motor electrics we are getting into large Gas boats (man boats). We will be traveling to venues that will be offering a lot of racing with a few boats.

Again - thanks to all for the motor ideas. Doug

[T.S.Davis]

hahaha There is no problem with P limited motors. Got it. Moving right alone.

[photohoward1]

I have to chime in with Paggs. I hate spec and run it begrudgingly. I cannot suggest an AQ motor to a newby. For $80 they get frustrated at the quality. A leopard 4072 or 4080 is way more reliable than the spec approved motors. Yes more powerful but more bang for the buck. For the same cost a spec rigger with the leopard will go 60 plus all day and not break a sweat. Your LSH boat too and a DF33". Same price more reliable and more speed. The original idea was to keep the cost down. Jump to 2014 and there are better options than a 36mm motor.

[photohoward1]

Back to watching TV.

[T.S.Davis]

.
Their 5D is 2140kv.

They weigh in at 245 grams. The TP is 252 grams. Bet they are the same.

[RandyatBBY]

Frank burnt 5 motors this year too. I am still running the same motors for the last 4 or 5 years. I did loose a 60amp Aquacraft esc but it was 7 years old. But we are going to run P open Sport next year in addition to the spec classes. I would like to see a Leopard motor replacement, I will be paying attention

[Peter A]

Hi guys, this has been an interesting read. At the bottom of the planet here in NZ we don't have all these problems, fe is pretty small. The NZMPBA has E-ltd (cos the petrol heads got confused!)

Here is our class (offshore, hydro has same specs except hull)

LIMITED E CLASS OFFSHORE (14.8Volt Max)
MOTOR/CELL OPTIONS
a). 12 cell Ni-Chemistry 14.4Volt or Li-polymer batteries (Lipos) 4S1P 12000mah max or 4S2P
12000mah 14.8Volts max.
b). Power in this Class will be brushless motors with a maximum can size of 36mm
diameter x 75mm in length (in-runner). Motors not allowed in class Neu, Hacker,
Mega, Aveox, Lehner
Motor Controller is open
c). Ready to run boats (RTR) Aqua Craft SV-27 and Pro Boat
d). Offshore hulls must be a Deep-Vee (16 to 28 degree “V” angle), or Offshore Catamaran type hull.
e). Freeboard, as measured at the tallest point on the side of the hull, will not be less than 25mm.
f). Stepped hulls and flat keel ride pads will be allowed on both Deep Vee and Catamaran type hulls.
g). Closed cockpits must have windshields. Windshields can either be clear, tinted or coloured.
Open cockpits must have drivers.
h). All efforts should be made to colour and number hulls in the spirit of real offshore racing.
However, this class is intended to be stand-off scale class.
i). Safety Loops and isolating switches are
mandatory.
j). No gear boxes allowed
k). NZMPBA electric class racing rules will apply (4 laps max)
l). Minimum hull length 24 inches. (610 mm)

I know that it doesn't have any effect for you guys(perhaps going off on a tangent even), but my Pursuit running a TP motor (fits this class) took out our club high points and mono racing all year against petrol and nitro boats. I've been going it alone but now have an Impulse and shortly a Smashshark to race against. It has been quietly amusing to beat the petrols but even better buzz to help get new boats up and going. I have changed to a 40mm can motor (TP again) as the boat runs better and I can utilise more props and get even better speed. As Nz Pres. (with the commitee) I will be doing an overhaul of our electric classes in the near future as this will go in hand with the work we are doing with the other power modes. Due to the small number of boaters racing in NZ I am looking to simplify things down to 2,4,6 cell setups and take off the motor restrictions that exist, this should be sufficient for the next few years and line up with some of what is already happening north of the Bombays (only Kiwis will understand) and will hopefully encourage some of the fractionation that does exist here to mend a bit. Well thats the dream anyway!
Just thought I would chuck this in.
If any one is intersted have a look at www.nzmpba.co.nz

BTW I run on a near nonexistent budget!