Looking for motor ideas

[longballlumber]

I also still want a guy to be able to buy a shelf boat and be in the ballpark right out of the box. If you tell a potential new boater with 350 or so in his first boat that he has to drop another 250 to race he ain't gonna. If he can race for a few races with his boat as is we at least have a shot.

I think Terry's comment is important and should be considered. We already have difficulty getting new racers involved in organized racing. We don't want scare them away instantly by telling them they need to go out and spend more money on a different motor before they even have a chance to race.

Organizing a list of objectives and prioritizing those objectives would be interesting to see. I know Doug has clearly stated his objectives, but also think there are others that need to be considered, before getting to far down this road.

Later,
Mike

[HTVboats]

Tom and I just talked about this again.

What if we had spec that was:
36mm (max)
2100kv (max)
A maximum weight (TBD)
Maximum MSRP of maybe $130.

I am assuming your weight max is for the motor? As for kv limit, why? There is going to be a sweet spot range that works for each hull. Also assuming this motor rule to cover all hull types? KV for a mono to a rigger being the same might inhibit performance on different hulls. Also if you make rules you have to have an inspection procedure after the race. With weight and KV you need to pull each motor, probably not going to happen. 36mm I agree and a cost limit would be fine. A can length would be easily enforced without pulling a motor.
Mic

[427srule]

a neu 1512/1.5Y 1850 kv and prob can get years and years of running? OK its a little more expensive but this year alone I spent $790 on "spec" motors I'm pretty done with buying these motors I would rather pay $250 on a motor that will last me 10 seasons???

I agree....I could have purchased 6 Neu motors in the last three years for what I spent on spec motors
I bought a TP 3630 10d 2100kv earlier this year just to test. Obviously haven't raced it yet because it is not legal.
Dropped right in, no modification needed.

Very open to any alternative

Mike

[tjcast]

SSS has 2 motors that might be viable alternatives for this. A 3650 2080 Kv motor and a 3660 2000 Kv.

[Doby]

Spec the can dimensions (+/- what ever)and a max Kv rating ....

[T.S.Davis]

Weight would be a pain tech.

The reality is that simplicity is what makes the spec classes popular. I don't think the popularity can be argued. The numbers make that clear. Our club numbers are/have been directly driven by new guys being able to go to the local hobby store and buy a "race" boat.

If we we're going to continue to have P spec classes (we are, period) we must have one of two things:
A ready supply of reliable motors (we don't)
or
a spec that's easy to comply with that doesn't instantly render all the off the shelf guys unable to compete.

Another reality and it pains me to type it is that our beloved Aquacraft and Proboat are corporations. They aren't run by Darin and Grim. They're not driving the bus. Decisions are made by the numbers. Not always but frequently.

Those corporations buy manufacturing from other corporations that make decisions based on numbers. You see where I'm going.

We've seen some screwy inconsistencies with AQ of late. Proboat just dumped their motor supplier supplier entirely which leaves who the heck knows where on those.

[ray schrauwen]

Lets go NEU or go home...

1410- 2Y Speak to Steve and see what he can do. I know it doesn't fit all the parameters but, NEU is THE most consistent supplier any of us know of.

[longballlumber]

Lets go NEU or go home...

1410- 2Y Speak to Steve and see what he can do. I know it doesn't fit all the parameters but, NEU is THE most consistent supplier any of us know of.

Do we know if they (NEU) can handle demand/quantities?

We also need to see if/how the RTR controllers from Aquacraft and ProBoat can handle the suggested motor replacements... Telling a new boater their entire power system is obsolete is a bad idea.

[HTVboats]

Excuse the pun, but to me tying your "can" to one manufacturer leaves you at their mercy. I would be fine with a Neu only but if someone wants to race a leopard/Feigao/ or whatever Hobbykingqueen cheapo is out there let them have that option. 36mm can seems to be agreed upon so pick a length and whatever KV limit and go. It comes down to actual watts and efficiency. Weight or length will determine potential watts limits. Only so large of magnet will fit in the can. Trying to make everyone match like an IROC car may not grow the hobby. Boats and motors evolve and become obsolete. Make rules that will allow for new products and they will come. Right now the AQ 2030 seems to be "the" motor. Would opening up to a 1410 Neu or 3650 leopard ruin spec class? More options might bring more racers in. At least they won't become extinct with a model change by any one manufacturer. ROAR sets specs and manufacturers build around them.
There is still only one first place in a heat and prop and setup may be a larger factor than motor.
Mic

[ray schrauwen]

Well, would it help if I got one and ran it to see where it stands? I agree with you Mike 4-sure but, I have to do more than make suggestions...

At least I can still get a Talon 80 amp air esc and a 40C 1800Mah for free with it at this time...

[ezhitz]

I can't help but think as I read this thread maybe part of the problem with burning up ul1 motors is from trying to make 50 mph class run at 55mph! Yes I to have burnt up my share of motors too but since propping down the motors been happier. I think if your going to have guys running and buying NEU motors why not just run full p. But I do think Doug is right pick a motor his club and district will be happy with and enjoy a summer of racing.

[T.S.Davis]

Trying to make everyone match like an IROC car may not grow the hobby.

It already has. This is what we thought we were doing when we pinned down the motor list. Short list of similar motors with enough variation for the various hulls to get the right blend of prop/rpm/watts/etc. It was absolutely working too. I base that statement on the numbers we've seen locally and nationally. We "thought" that the prop, setup, and driving were the factors to determine the winners. Setups that work today and fail on a brand new motor tomorrow isn't really making that so. Winning by attrition kinda sucks in truth. If the motors were still coming from overseas with some consistency we wouldn't even be discussing it at all.

I'm not real keen on a single manufacturer but the teching it thing is a bit daunting with just a parameter spec. At least if it was Neu and we were having issues we could talk to them about it. If we're killing their motors they'll want to know why. As for demand.....who the heck could predict what that would be?

Again, we need something comparable performance wise without high cost but with better reliability. Then if/when the motors in an RTR fails and a racer (not a hobbyist) can pick up a Seaking 120 and Leapord 3650 for $139.98 versus $119 for the AQ motor he may be okay with it. I'm thinking that by the time he experiences motor death he'll either be an FE junky or he wont. If he's hooked the replacement cost wont seem out of line to him.......maybe?

I'm not trying to push us in a direction. Just getting the collective brain trust thinking. Opinions vary widely on the subject. It feels like a fragile thing that we could screw up if we get to crazy. I personally feel something has to happen moving forward. Not sure what exactly.

[T.S.Davis]

I can't help but think as I read this thread maybe part of the problem with burning up ul1 motors is from trying to make 50 mph class run at 55mph!.

Maybe but it's the inconsistency that drives us crazy.

My LSH runs about 52 on a PB motor. My sons LSH runs about 49.9 on an AQ motor. We had a guy that was running a little faster. Maybe 54 in the straights. He's been running his setup a couple years. Same boat. Same motor. Same cells. Same prop. 2 seasons plus pre season testing on the motor. Including an MCup and a nationals. It finally gave up the ghost a couple weeks ago. It happens eventually. Two seasons seemed like a reasonable life span for a spec race motor. Bought a new motor and dropped er' in. The same exact motor. 6 runs and it's a crispy critter. Why? It's a known setup. Frustrating. What does he do now? Slow down I guess. Learn a new setup.

[bozo586]

terry-i think our club has taken a big hit lately because of the motor problem-we used to have 10 or 12 people show up for practice and now we have only 5 or 6! but they all show up on race day. i'll bet mmeu members have come close to 50 blown motors in the last two seasons of p-spec. new members don't stick around when motors die at that rate!

[twissted]

I really like the TP Power motors for the price I think the SSS motors are hard to beat. Neu motors are grate and I'm seeing more companies use them Axial is one that come to mind.

[ezhitz]

Terry no question there quality has dropped in the last couple of years today I watched my son run his three year old ac motor in his whip 4 laps swinging a 1450 prop motor came back warm at 100f usually runs a x545. I tell him one day it will quit and he will feel all our pain LOL

[T.S.Davis]

See. No way that would work on a new one.

I used to run my pursuit in offshore. Ran with 8400 mah with an M447 for the full 4 minutes. I didn't maintain the motor very well. Rusted up one of the bearings over winter. I built a new lighter carbon version. Exact same setup but new motor. Wire drive with stainless ball bearings. Smoother than popcorn butter. Started with an ABC 45x55. Baked it.

[longballlumber]

Somehow I always end up on the devil’s advocate end of these discussions. Maybe it’s because I don’t burn up motors as frequently as the others. I am not sure why, but I don’t. That’s not to say I haven’t burnt up motors. However the number of motors and the frequency is much lower than the others have experienced.

I agree it’s frustrating when you have a motor that runs for a long time and stays cool on a particular setup. Put in a new motor and “POOF”… That exact thing has happen to me ONE time. I think one part of this discussion we are missing is DATA. People are burning up motors; do we have any AMP draw information off of data logging? Heat in the motor alone isn't painting the picture completely. 90amp average is a 90amp average... Are they blowing up on 100amp average one day and 80amp average the next? I don't know. I would be willing to assume the closer we get to "the edge", the less consistent "the edge" is batch to batch and motor to motor. To me it’s completely feasible that we are so close to the edge on these motors that manufacturing tolerances are coming into play where the swing from a “great” motor to a “horrible” motor can mean one prop/set up is good one motor and bad the next.

I also understand there are some challenges on the manufacturing end where the manufacturer decides to make changes with out informing their customer. I don't have any suggestions for that. With the exception of NEU, the other suggested motors are all manufactured over seas. There is no guarantee this won't happen again. Especially when they see a rise in sales (or spike in demand). Mark my words, they will try and find a way to increase their bottom line if it comes to that.

These motors ARE reliable when used under their threshold. Our club has been running an SV27 class for two and a half years now and I don’t know of any motor failures. However, we also spec out a prop for this class that is well within reason of the power system.

I am not sure if anyone caught it or not, but in Doug’s original post, it mentions a LIMIT on prop diameter. Is this the method to be used to minimize/eliminate burning up the newly spec’ed motor (or controllers for that matter)?

Just to be clear with everyone, I don’t care either way. As a RACER I am going to buy whatever I feel is necessary to be competitive. I don’t care if it’s AquaCraft, ProBoat, TP Power, Lepord, or NEU. My comments come from the angle of looking to keep the doors open for new hobbyist without scaring them after the first 5 questions they ask about racing classes ($$$$).

Later,
Ball

[Grimracer]

I have to wonder... what then will be the new "Spec class".. what boat will come onto the scene and start this all over again....
A boat.. that came with a motor started this.. Regardless it’s a train that cannot be stopped.. Not as long as there is racing and somebody is losing.
Its a bummer that guys are nuking our little 2030s. When does the current limiting begin and the slaughter of the 2030 (or any motor you spec in the future)…end……..
Likely never… its electric racing………




Grim

[T.S.Davis]

I don't have the answer either.

Mike, so you know. I'm sure you already do. Most of us don't think the tolerances we're finding have anything to do with you. Could be Ball is right too. We're so close to the edge that any tolerance how ever miniscule becomes a failure.

As for the real time data.......does it matter? We have a known setup we've run for years and then on the next motor it goes thermal nuclear. Who cares what the amperage was? Lets say it's 90, 70, 40, 100 amps. It was working and now on the next motor it doesn't? So you lost one due to age, maintenance, abuse, whatever. Bought a replacement and ran it the same as you have for some time and now have to buy a third. Not only are you buying a third motor but you have no idea what your setup is going to be................aaaaaa 42x55 it is.

For me. I'll push a motor until it breaks. Some of you have seen me do it. More than once. Did it recently with the Proboat 1800's. Baked one of those Saturday as a matter of fact. I wanted to know how far I could push before the smoke exits the can. Found it. We'll dial back from there. Now if there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory I'll never find the edge. Motor A and motor B from the same manufacturer aren't the same. SS1 motors anyone?

You're right about the bottom line dance Mike. If you're in business in any way you have to do this. It's ain't charity. Profit is why businesses exist. Pisses people off but that's the real deal. Even Nue motors have a different can today than they did a few years ago. I don't know why. Availability, cost, who knows but they ARE different.

All that said, we have to keep the RTR boats viable. That's still our best hope of conversion from "guy with a boat" to "racer".

[Doby]

Spec the can dimensions (+/- what ever)and a max Kv rating ....

Then the manufacturers can make their motors in the RTR's to match the spec if they want them to be race ready out of the box.

Lets face it, given the recent RTR's from PB and AQ, they seem to be sticking to a certain motor size/kv range already so it shouldn't be a big deal.

This now leaves every other motor to be allowed to run as long as its in the spec requirements, and the guy who just bought his RTR can run as well.

Want to spec props as well and make them affordable...use the Graupner "K" series...lots of options, bolt on and go for little $$$$$.

[T.S.Davis]

This now leaves every other motor to be allowed to run as long as its in the spec requirements, and the guy who just bought his RTR can run as well.

Yes but, devils advocate again, how do you know it's right on race day as a CD? Let's say some guy shows with a "spec" motor and destroys everyone by a lap. Now what? Is that motor legal? The guy says it's only 1800kv. Take his word for it? B and AQ motors are easy to identify.

Evey simply idea I've come up with is hard to regulate/monitor/verify. That's kinda how we ended up with just a short list of motors to begin with.

We do NOT want to have to prove a motor on race day from "Joe's Pretty Good Motor Company". "Well, Joe said it met the spec so I went with it. Joe's a good guy"

We literally had this happen with the 700 motors when we started racing the original LSH and LSO classes. Fine ordered a brand new motor built a specific way when we started racing the original LSH and LSO classes. The day the SS1 motors hit the scene, everything else was very nearly irrelevant. It was in a 700 can so it was legal. Steve had a motor that was comparable but it was near the end of the 700 motor era.

Maybe the real fix is to leave the list as is and add a few after market motors that are close to the same thing. Thinking out loud again. Maybe one Neu, one Leapord, a Turnigy and maybe an SSS?

[Darin Jordan]

And so ends the "P-Ltd" classes, and begins the era of everyone moving back to "Open"...

Terry, you of all people at this point should realize... spec'ing by dimensions and weight isn't a "spec"... compare the performance of the last 1800 Dynamite/Pro Boat motors to the earlier ones. Can you tell a difference by the dimensions?? (I already know that answer).

There needs to be more.

[Doby]

We need an "Open, P-limited Spec" class.....

[Darin Jordan]

By the way, for what it's worth... I do think we need at least to revisit any P-LTD power system rules if the classes are to continue. We're down to just two motor options at this point, and apparently, some are having trouble keeping those alive.

We KNEW it would get here, however, so no reason to get bitter or ague about it. Just face reality like "men"... Just like LSH/LSO, technology changes, and the rules need to be able to adapt.

Doug, if I come across any motors that fit your requirements, I'll post the specs.

[T.S.Davis]

Wasn't that long ago we all ran brushed 05 motors. Some are still pissed about us moving away from that. Then 12 sub c cells on 700 cans. LSH was a hit so we made a matching offshore class. That died with the intro of BL and eventually LiPo.

Racing evolves. It has too.

Before our club was running P spec classes we had our own spec class. N2 Sport. We limited KV and can size and that was about it. In hind sight maybe an MSRP limit was in order. Most ran a Fegieo but a few of us had Hackers and Lehner which are simply not equals. Might have screwed up the works that way.

Darin is right too. The 1800 PB motors were much stronger than the motors they replaced. They didn't torch when run hot either. You really had to prop up to find the edge. So a generational change for the better! Seems good right? Could have been. Except......what if a gen change was too good? What if a new version of the 2030 is suddenly putting out 1500 watts instead of 900.

Darin and I have been discussing the short comings of the spec for some time. It's full of holes.

Put on your think'n caps guys. There has to be a way to make it work.

I keep coming back to size, mass, kv, MSRP. Provide us the documentation on race day. It's your job as a racer to have the proof.

[Darin Jordan]

Doug,

To directly provide some feedback to your original topic, I'd seriously recommend you consider these motor:

Typhoon 650-58-1970
http://www.highendrc.com/index_eprod...roducts_id=321



Price is about right. KV and Dimensions are where you are looking, and I think you'll find that these are damned near Neu clones.

I've the larger versions of these in action. They seem pretty legit.

[DPeterson]

Thanks Darin, another option. Hate to say it - looks too good of quality. I sure like the KV.

Good luck to you guy's trying to figure out your P-Limited dilema. IMO as soon as you seperate RTR beginner classes from Limited Spec classes you will get somewhere.

There simply is not a RTR boat available that is properely designed or built for racing in P-Limited. When a guy brings a Supervee, Revolt or Impulse and races against a Pursuit or Delta Force he gets his butt handed to him. When he brings a ULI and races against a Whiplash or a Thomas, same thing. When he brings a Stillhetto and races against a PS295 or Woodstuff same thing. Get the picture?

Then when he gets back to his shop he has to replace the drive line, fix the servo mount, take the hook out of the hull, buy competitive batteries etc, etc. If he hits something - oh gosh - its over. Sorry - it's not the cost of the boat or the motor that is the issue.

Nothing against the RTR's. Its a beginners boat. Thats it, nothing more. Last time I ran one I was 16 years old. 40 some years ago.

Carry on gents.

[Doby]

40+16= HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kendt]

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...90mm_EDF_.html

I,m surprised these have not been mentioned. They are great motors. I have run one in my 30" cat with a tfl443 on 6s and it flew. I pulled it out to go on my ts3 for a 4s setup.