Cell Voltage Limits

[Fluid]

From this thread:
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...754#post527754

....thought getting that hard number for each class is probably a bit more complicated than it has to be. But it just takes a little math....So the Max voltage on a N boat with a fully charged pack taken before a run should be no more than 8.658V

Not good enough. So if the VOM reads 8.659 is the pack illegal? How many decimal places do you carry it too? Geeze, it is TOO complicated with no hard line. And since the LiPo manufacturers don't recommend charging over 4.2 volts per cell, why allow 4.33? I own eight chargers and NONE OF THEM charge a pack over 4.21 volts per cell. And when is the teching done? All the rule says is a "fully charged pack" - when is it checked, after the event when it is "fully charged"? Not being a dick, just playing the devil's advocate.

All that said, it is better than NAMBA's rule set. Both organizations just need to tighten up the wording a bit and they are there. It isn't complicated. CDs still have the option to ignore the rules....


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[Darin Jordan]

Jay,

I'll dive in... I've taken the current NAMBA Power Specifications and modified them according to a basic understanding of the voltage limits of the Lipo Chemistry cells. I'll assume, for now, that we are no longer going to conern ourselves with NiMH cells, or other Ni Chemistry.

Just a starting point for discussion. There are rules deeper in the rulebook that would obviously need to be reworded to discuss the teching, etc. Maybe we need to allow a SLIGHT tolerance??

We do need to specify WHEN the voltage is measured. ROAR racing does it before AND after the run. Not sure what the after is for, exactly, but teching out makes perfect sense.

Not sure why the IMPBA allows such a LARGE overcharging allowance (4.33V/cell?? ), but I've not allowed any here. If you charge your Lipos normally to cutoff, this is where you'll be... IF you have quality cells... Most will be slightly lower once you take them off the charger...

Let the games begin!

NAMBA_POWER_SPECIFICATION_PROPOSAL.jpg

[Doby]

Why not just say..."max 2S LiPo" and keep it simple??

[Fluid]

Why not? Because it is possible to overcharge LiPos to well over 4.2 volts per cell, and I believe it has been done in competition. This shortens cell life and risks fire etc. It also means that racers who are safety minded and who have a budget will be at a large power disadvantage. That is the result of rules which have given racers a loophole. Simple hasn't worked. Is this where we want to go? Is that for the betterment of the hobby? I don't think so.




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[keithbradley]

They checked them BEFORE at the last IMPBA event that I went to Jay. It was a huge PITA to be honest, but I guess if it makes people happy it may be a necessary evil. I can see it being a little less painful at an event where there are more electric guys. Getting ready to run, then walking my boat to the other side of the pits with live power (along with my DMM, tape, scissors, pocket driver for hatch bolts, etc.), then checking voltage in front of someone to verify that I'm not cheating, then taping up and getting ready to run with the boat resting across my knee...
Doing this every time that I want to toss the boat in the water is tiresome. I would assume that the process is a little smoother at events where electric boats are more popular.

I don't get the voltage ratings either, I think it might be residue from the Nimh days where peak voltage was not as predictable/consistent. It should be just 4.2v, with a small margin of error (maybe .03v). I think that some of the rules for FE were probably written by someone who wasn't all that familiar with modern FE boating. By the time we've gone through the growing pains of getting things up to speed, technology may have us in the same position again.

It would make sense to me if the pre-run testing of voltage was applied only to N and P setups, maybe even Q.
I don't think there would be an advantage to overcharging lipos in S and T.

[Darin Jordan]

would make sense to me if the pre-run testing of voltage was applied only to N and P setups, maybe even Q.
I don't think there would be an advantage to overcharging lipos in S and T.

That could be at the discretion of the CD... Honestly, it's really only an advantage at a SAW or MAYBE a 2-Lap TT... At a National level event, it's not going to buy you much, because the extra voltage would be gone by the time you took the start (30-second 1-Lap Mill)...

As for teching... I don't think it would be prohibitive to make some kind of approved inspection port/jack on the exterior of the boat somehow, if you require the ability to tape down and be ready before the tech. Seems like an engineering problem, not a problem with the overall concept.

As far as IMPBA teching before they went out... that's a great policy, but if they are allowing 4.33V/Cell as opposed to the recommended 4.2V/cell, the issue still remains with their rules, as far as I'm concerned. You have to do special things with your charger to overcharge to this degree, and it's really not considered a "safe" practice. Not really "knocking" the IMPBA; I just don't agree with this part for NAMBA. I'd prefer to work withing the technology.

[keithbradley]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I disagree with a lot of this post...

That could be at the discretion of the CD... Honestly, it's really only an advantage at a SAW or MAYBE a 2-Lap TT... At a National level event, it's not going to buy you much, because the extra voltage would be gone by the time you took the start (30-second 1-Lap Mill)...

I've only ran SAW events, so that's what I was referring to. However, the above logic doesn't make sense. Overcharging a lipo doesn't really result in a small amount of energy increasing the voltage to a "peak" like old nickel cells. In fact, the power drop off for an overcharged lipo is quite linear. If I started a race at 4.4v/cell and you started at 4.2v per cell, I would still have a .2v/cell advantage after the mill lap, giving that we are each running lipos that are similar in capacity.

As for teching... I don't think it would be prohibitive to make some kind of approved inspection port/jack on the exterior of the boat somehow, if you require the ability to tape down and be ready before the tech. Seems like an engineering problem, not a problem with the overall concept.

I'm guessing that you didn't give a lot of thought to this before you typed it....
There are a number of things wrong with this idea:
1) I don't consider the process of creating extra wiring and points of failure to be constructive. This may not be a big deal on a RTR or spec boat, but on higher cost/higher power/detail oriented boats it is.
2) How would checking voltage at external ports give you any more of an idea of whether or not someone is cheating? If this is good enough I could run a boat on 6s with a BEC in line to said "voltage check" ports and destroy every N and P record there is...
3) Most importantly, by putting a positive and negative terminal on the outside of the boat, you are effectively creating a short whenever the terminals contact water. While fresh water is a relatively poor conductor, it still is an applicable conductor, which makes this a terrible idea. Depending on some sort of boot or cover to shelter a self-created opportunity for a short would be less than intelligent planning in my opinion.

In regards to my comment about overcharging lipos being an advantage to only the lower voltage classes...
In S and T I think there would be greater advantage in having a higher lipo capacity rather than overcharging lipos, and this is a factor that isn't even checked. If I were to charge my lipos to 4.4v/cell instead of 4.2v/cell, this would result in less than a 5% power gain, assuming that the potential discharge rate doesn't change at voltages over 4.2v/cell. If I instead put 5000mah stickers on 6000mah lipos, the result is a potential 20% power gain. It would make more sense to me to operate on the honor system and if a cheater is suspected, allow competitors to offer a challenge, where the operator's boat can be inspected. A random inspection could be an option too, but micro managing these things to the point that they take the fun out of an event is prohibitive to the promotion of the events.

I can see why someone would cheat in N (not morally, but mechanically) because of the very low voltage restriction. However, the need is not their in the higher voltage classes. I run S and T and speed is only limited by my courage and willingness to risk a boat, not voltage.

[Darin Jordan]

The only REAL advantage to overcharging is with the motor-limited classes... in this case mostly P-Ltd, but also N1. Classes where you can pick and choose motors at will, it's not helping anything... It's done to get more RPMs. If you need more in an open motored class, just buy a different motor.

I'll respectfully agree to disagree with your "failure point" and teching concerns. All simple problems to solve, and none of them reasons to NOT implement overcharging (safety) restrictions, otherwise known as voltage limits.

[Fluid]

I kinda disagree Darin, you can put enough extra volts in a single cell to be a real racing advantage even in open P classes. Is it safe? Probably not in the long run. Does it shorten cell life? Probably. But hypothetically, what if neither problems exist? Is it still a good idea to alow it?

Teching right is always a headache. I remember teching the N-1 motors at the 1998 Nats in LA. We unwound the winners' motors after the race to verify that the motors were legal 27-turn stockers - which destroyed the motors. That was a pain. Until around 2004/2006 NAMBA often didn't count the cells in race boats to verify legality. How many racers have won National titles in P classes running 5S (or 14 NiMH cellsa0? No one knows. Over-volting can give those who practice it a large power advantage. Right now it is kinda legal in NAMBA, not so much in IMPBA if boats are checked. If boats are not checked then no one knows if they are legal or not.....so I guess they are all legal.

Hey, we put in length limits to prevent a problem which never even happened......

[NativePaul]

I don't get the voltage ratings either, I think it might be residue from the Nimh days where peak voltage was not as predictable/consistent. It should be just 4.2v, with a small margin of error (maybe .03v).

Keith, this is exactly what we run in Naviga 4.23v/cell maximum, it allows a bit of leeway for those with inaccurate cheap Chinese chargers, but doesn't allow dangerous overcharging, or a massive advantage for the limited amount of overcharging available to those with good chargers.

As far as IMPBA teching before they went out... that's a great policy,

In Naviga everyone gets tested on the way out, nationally we only do random tests on the way back in (under3v/cell is bad news), at the worlds everyone was tested in and out.

1) I don't consider the process of creating extra wiring and points of failure to be constructive. This may not be a big deal on a RTR or spec boat, but on higher cost/higher power/detail oriented boats it is.
2) How would checking voltage at external ports give you any more of an idea of whether or not someone is cheating? If this is good enough I could run a boat on 6s with a BEC in line to said "voltage check" ports and destroy every N and P record there is...
3) Most importantly, by putting a positive and negative terminal on the outside of the boat, you are effectively creating a short whenever the terminals contact water. While fresh water is a relatively poor conductor, it still is an applicable conductor, which makes this a terrible idea. Depending on some sort of boot or cover to shelter a self-created opportunity for a short would be less than intelligent planning in my opinion.

1) if you use connectors that are up to the job safety loops are not a failure issue, and I see plenty of boats on here without loops that have more wire than I have with loops, but loops are ugly and need to be in when running, so I agree with the detail point, but it wouldn't have to be a loop you could run a 20g wire up through a wood block to pins flush with the surface of the hull that you could never see on the water and wouldn't be very noticeable on the shelf, of course you wouldn't get the convenience of being able to tape up hours in advance and plug in come race time or tweaking your prop without untaping, but it would allow teching without untaping.
2) it would be easy to spot if your tech wires came from a BEC not your ESC/battery wires, and if you were secretive enough with your boats that nobody would notice, I feel sure that you would be selected for a thorough internal tech, then possibly a thorough cavity search when you were discovered to be cheating.
3)You may be aware that we run safety loops in Naviga, one end of which is connected to the battery positive and the other end connected to the ESC positive, before you plug them together you actually have a neutral on the ESC positive so you can measure voltage across a loop without having a negative with a potential short. (for clarity I should say that there is 1 particular ESC that drops voltage across itself and because of that we have started doing internal checks this year, but it is a non issue really, as the voltage is so low it is easy to spot that ESC from the loop and only then do an internal check, also it seems to be a very rare ESC in the states, I have only heard of 1 in use here on OSE.) If you chose to use positive and negative pins for whatever reason, nearly all of us rely on tape to waterproof our hulls, a strip of tape over flush pins would waterproof them and prevent any potential shorts.

Overcharging a lipo doesn't really result in a small amount of energy increasing the voltage to a "peak" like old nickel cells. In fact, the power drop off for an overcharged lipo is quite linear. If I started a race at 4.4v/cell and you started at 4.2v per cell, I would still have a .2v/cell advantage after the mill lap, giving that we are each running lipos that are similar in capacity.

I think that is an extreme example and if you started a race at 4.4v/cell you would probably have a boat drifting slowly with the wind whilst pouring out smoke, but I agree with the principle, you will hold extra voltage right to the end, you also get extra capacity so the end wont be any further away despite the higher RPM.

I think there would be greater advantage in having a higher lipo capacity rather than overcharging lipos, and this is a factor that isn't even checked. If I were to charge my lipos to 4.4v/cell instead of 4.2v/cell, this would result in less than a 5% power gain, assuming that the potential discharge rate doesn't change at voltages over 4.2v/cell. If I instead put 5000mah stickers on 6000mah lipos, the result is a potential 20% power gain.

You are quite right there Keith, but for god's sake keep it under your hat and pretend you never thought of it. Naviga have weight limits for LiPos which is the only practical and techable way of keeping cell energy in check, but it is a bigger pain in the arse than you could possibly imagine (even if you were the secret love-child of Salvador Dali and JK Rowling, and lived until the next big bang.). Do whatever you can to keep the honour system for this one.

[Doug Smock]

Keith,
The integrity of our records is only as good as our technical inspections.
It has nothing to do with what "makes people happy" or to "see if you're cheating".

It's the CDs responsibility to make sure that all boats are within the rules, period.

If you think it's tough from a racers stand point? Try sitting in the CD's chair. Check out the procedure for teching a stock Zenoah and you'll know what a "huge PITA" is. Carrying your boat, radio, etc. a few feet won't seem like such a big deal.
Poor Chris Harris has to lay his hands on EVERY motor that goes with a N Stock or SS Record Application.
I have to check all the math, record and update all the records, print, sign, put the gold seal on all the certificates, address all the envelopes, put the postage on them, and get them in the mail. There's a "huge(time consuming) PITA " for you. LOL

It's all part of the game. Records Trials aren't Sunday fun runs.

Taping a boat up in your lap?
I've never been to a RT that didn't have one or more tables set up for teching boats. Consider getting and extra table or covering this with the CD prior to the event.

Stay tuned on the voltage limits...........

[Doug Smock]

Over-volting can give those who practice it a large power advantage. Right now it is kinda legal in NAMBA, not so much in IMPBA if boats are checked.

Pick a record that has been set since I've been the records director (only because those are organized lol) and tell me what you want to know about the boat.

I know that wasn't a stone thrown over the fence Jay. Just assuring you I (we) have the information.

[keithbradley]

@Paul:
I don't agree that it would be as easy as opening the hatch to tell if someone was feeding the test wires a regulated voltage. I'm 100% positive I could hide this if I wanted to. In the spirit of "keeping it under my hat", I let it be at that, but it definitely could be done.

In regards to the 4.4v example being extreme, again I will remain vague, but it my experience that is a VERY MILD example, believe it or not. I by no means condone over-charging lipos. I think it's a silly idea and I don't know why someone would feel good about a record set with a boat that really doesn't fit the voltage class.

@Doug:
I agree with most of what you're saying. Please understand that these are my observations and not my judgment of an organization, whether it be IMPBA or NAMBA. Whether things are a PITA or not should be a concern to everyone, as I think many of us would like to see more faces when we compete at these events.

[keithbradley]

Oh, and Paul...
I wanted to put a safety loop on the last boat I built, so in the event of an emergency I can shut the boat down as quickly as possible. I didn't do it because it would raise the likelihood of failure, and that's a tough pill for me to swallow.

[Doug Smock]

@Doug:
I agree with most of what you're saying. Please understand that these are my observations and not my judgment of an organization, whether it be IMPBA or NAMBA. Whether things are a PITA or not should be a concern to everyone, as I think many of us would like to see more faces when we compete at these events.

Ok, so what don't you agree with?

What's keeping people away from the Record Trials .

What have many of you done to promote them.

Sorry for the hijack fellas. Take it to PM if you'd like Keith.

[ReddyWatts]

You would think y'all are competing for a large money purse and big endorsements. I would hope there is still honor among the enthusiasts competing for a hobby boat title. Cheaters are usually found out.

[Fluid]

You would think y'all are competing for a large money purse and big endorsements. I would hope there is still honor among the enthusiasts competing for a hobby boat title. Cheaters are usually found out.

The problem is this: A guy beats all others with a very fast boat at a National race and takes home the 1st place trophy. His boat is not teched - before or after the race. The racers who lost think the guy cheated because he was "too fast" and the rumors start. People who don't know the winner but listen to what other racers say now hear that he cheats. His reputation is tarnished with no proof that he deserved it.

Think this doesn't happen? Think again. It happened at the 1997 NAMBA Nats. Did the winner in N-1 Hydro cheat? No one knows because the host club didn't bother to tech his motor. That was why I teched the N-1 motors at the next Nats, with the ROAR Technical Chairman at my side. It was to protect the winners, not to find cheaters.....although since the racers knew their motors would be unwound and inspected for tweaking the chances of cheating was pretty nil. I've heard similar rumors about much more recent Nationals, some on these boards.

I've also witnessed guys who were sponsored cheat just to make their sponsors happy. Over a decade ago I watched a young sponsored racer and his co-driver run one lap short in a very confused Nationals heat. I was watching carefully and know that he only did four laps instead of five. When asked if he did five laps he and his co-driver said yes. He took home the trophy for his sponsor, but he quit racing the next year. I wonder why.

I find it kinda funny that guys who don't race know all the answers to the racer's problems. (This isn't aimed at you Reddy)




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[ReddyWatts]

I would think that racers would have learned by now to keep this kind of chatter off the forums and in PM's. This is what keeps many boaters out of racing. (Not aimed at you you Fluid).

[Cooper]

I use to professionally race motocross and setup was- tec inspection, checking to make sure everything is appearing to be legit. In the event of a top three finish you were torn down to make sure no displacement was exceeded. If someone contested your finishing position or displacement "cheating" then they were responsible for any costs/efforts to inspection if inspection by officials failed to prove any discrepancy of rules.
Basically if a record is being set- have the contender and their boat checked after the race. If someone is arguing that a contender is not complying to rules and proven wrong then hold them responsible for false accounts somehow (up to event planner). As far as the battery +\- .01 volt in my opinion by the time a boat is lined up for a saw run that margin of discrepancy is nil. I more agree with the technical aspect of importance regarding to battery capacity being checked than a margin insignificant to charging voltage. As stated a rebranded 6amp battery verses a 5amp battery will yield more of an advantage and be a lot easier to "hide".

[Cooper]

And as I was typing,,, I admit I am not a racer, as of yet but pursuing a record. But I honestly don't believe I'm a armchair racer either. But I would like to be at an event and have legitimate records set with a somewhat painless tec inspection take place. No matter what when records and competition are at hand there will always be a need to enforce compliance. Don't rely on an honor system as it will just cause animosity and accusations eventually.

[keithbradley]

You would think y'all are competing for a large money purse and big endorsements. I would hope there is still honor among the enthusiasts competing for a hobby boat title.

I agree. While it's fun to break records and win titles, for me I don't even consider it serious competition...just a bunch of guys with a common interest. I would be totally willing to help someone out, whether they beat me or not. The idea of cheating seems unfulfilling to say the least.

The problem is this: A guy beats all others with a very fast boat at a National race and takes home the 1st place trophy. His boat is not teched - before or after the race. The racers who lost think the guy cheated because he was "too fast" and the rumors start. People who don't know the winner but listen to what other racers say now hear that he cheats. His reputation is tarnished with no proof that he deserved it.

Think this doesn't happen? Think again. It happened at the 1997 NAMBA Nats. Did the winner in N-1 Hydro cheat? No one knows because the host club didn't bother to tech his motor. That was why I teched the N-1 motors at the next Nats, with the ROAR Technical Chairman at my side. It was to protect the winners, not to find cheaters.....although since the racers knew their motors would be unwound and inspected for tweaking the chances of cheating was pretty nil. I've heard similar rumors about much more recent Nationals, some on these boards.

I've also witnessed guys who were sponsored cheat just to make their sponsors happy. Over a decade ago I watched a young sponsored racer and his co-driver run one lap short in a very confused Nationals heat. I was watching carefully and know that he only did four laps instead of five. When asked if he did five laps he and his co-driver said yes. He took home the trophy for his sponsor, but he quit racing the next year. I wonder why.

I find it kinda funny that guys who don't race know all the answers to the racer's problems. (This isn't aimed at you Reddy)




.

This make sense. I can see where this would happen, and I know of instances where it has. This offers a little bit different perspective to the issue.

Wouldn't allowing competitors to "challenge" a winner's setup (resulting in an inspection) if they believe it is not within class parameters solve this issue though?

I don't know who the non-racer with all the answers is. I'm not sure who is participating in this thread that doesn't compete in some sort of event...
However, I would not find it surprising if someone from the outside looking in could better see problems and solutions than those who are directly involved. This is typical in most facets of life. If the people steering the ship knew how to right it, it wouldn't be off course in the first place.

[Cooper]

I agree. While it's fun to break records and win titles, for me I don't even consider it serious competition...just a bunch of guys with a common interest. I would be totally willing to help someone out, whether they beat me or not. The idea of cheating seems unfulfilling to say the least. ---Keith quote

I agree as I know you and probably all here are of honorable intentions as myself and it just isn't a victory if is acquired from cheering somehow. As we are pushing the limits on rc boats not real offshore records with hundreds of thousands of $ at stake.

[keithbradley]

I would think that racers would have learned by now to keep this kind of chatter off the forums and in PM's. This is what keeps many boaters out of racing. (Not aimed at you you Fluid).

Really? I've seen time and time again where someone starts to talk about an event, and they are quieted when there is any presence of anything negative in the spirit of "not scaring anyone off".
If you aren't prepared to share event details with the community, don't expect the community to participate. I personally feel strongly about this, because I avoided participating in events for a long time for this very reason, and I know other people who have as well.
The idea of keeping everything quiet not only implies that there is something to hide, but it brings an overall feeling of FE racers being a "clique" that doesn't want anyone who is not already part of the group to be involved. Neither organization has anything to hide...there are no real skeletons in the closet here. Why alienate people and make them feel unwelcomed to attend/participate? It's not an elite group of chosen people...it's just a bunch of guys who like RC boats...isn't that what everyone is here?

Comments about who is or isn't a racer are exactly the type of rhetoric that KEEP PEOPLE AWAY from these organizations. Does anyone really think those type of comments are productive? Is there any possibility that a potential newcomer (like Cooper) would see that and feel welcome?
There are a lot of people who say that they want more members at events, but a lot of times I see actions that do not back up their claims.

[Cooper]

Personally I would like to know what the "chatter" is before I show up, it's kind of why I'm on this forum

[Fluid]

If the people steering the ship knew how to right it, it wouldn't be off course in the first place.

That's a very cute platitude, but it doesn't apply here. It's like saying that if Jeff Gordon knew how to drive he wouldn't get in a wreck at Watkins Glen. The fact here is that technology has changed faster than the rules. Racers identified the issue, and know how to fix it. Non-racer input is not unwelcome, but simplistic answers based on limited knowledge of racing is less helpful.

I agree as I know you and probably all here are of honorable intentions as myself and it just isn't a victory if is acquired from cheering somehow. As we are pushing the limits on rc boats not real offshore records with hundreds of thousands of $ at stake.

Apparently you have not been to the events I have been to. True, most racers are "honorable" but there are those who are not, they forget it's just toy boats. Go to a gas race sometime if you want to see fireworks and name-calling. I've seen fist fights on the drivers' stand over a bad pass...


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[Cooper]

Wishful thinking hu? Lol,, I guess it's true, as your avatar states- speed kills-- and speed costs money, how much you got? And how fast ya want to go?
Awww its all good, at least for me, I'll probably crash and burn trying anyway.

[Cooper]

Really? I've seen time and time again where someone starts to talk about an event, and they are quieted when there is any presence of anything negative in the spirit of "not scaring anyone off".
If you aren't prepared to share event details with the community, don't expect the community to participate. I personally feel strongly about this, because I avoided participating in events for a long time for this very reason, and I know other people who have as well.
The idea of keeping everything quiet not only implies that there is something to hide, but it brings an overall feeling of FE racers being a "clique" that doesn't want anyone who is not already part of the group to be involved. Neither organization has anything to hide...there are no real skeletons in the closet here. Why alienate people and make them feel unwelcomed to attend/participate? It's not an elite group of chosen people...it's just a bunch of guys who like RC boats...isn't that what everyone is here?

Comments about who is or isn't a racer are exactly the type of rhetoric that KEEP PEOPLE AWAY from these organizations. Does anyone really think those type of comments are productive? Is there any possibility that a potential newcomer (like Cooper) would see that and feel welcome?
There are a lot of people who say that they want more members at events, but a lot of times I see actions that do not back up their claims.

its that time!!

[Doug Smock]

Wouldn't allowing competitors to "challenge" a winner's setup (resulting in an inspection) if they believe it is not within class parameters solve this issue though?

You can protest a racers equipment but I don't think it happens very often. I've only seen it happen once.
http://impba.net/attachments/article...les%202012.pdf

[keithbradley]

That's a very cute platitude, but it doesn't apply here. It's like saying that if Jeff Gordon knew how to drive he wouldn't get in a wreck at Watkins Glen. The fact here is that technology has changed faster than the rules. Racers identified the issue, and know how to fix it. Non-racer input is not unwelcome, but simplistic answers based on limited knowledge of racing is less helpful.

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No, it's more like saying that if Jeff Gordon had been wrecking at every race for the last five years, it might be a poor decision to rely 100% on the current pit crew's opinion on what to do next. If you use only what you already have, don't expect anything better than what you've always gotten. I'm not trying to say anyone is doing a poor job, just that ignoring anyone who isn't already part of your group is a fool's errand. Often people on the outside can better see what those on the inside can't. It all becomes scenery after a while and things that might stand out to a new comer can seem normal to a veteran.

You saying that non-racer input is not unwelcome is absolute BS. If you want to make statements that alienate people, like

I find it kinda funny that guys who don't race know all the answers to the racer's problems. (This isn't aimed at you Reddy)
.

at least be man enough to own it.
There is only one possible purpose to that statement, and it's to alienate people and imply that their opinion or intelligence is invalid.

This is the same thing I have seen for years and it is by far the most destructive attitude you could possibly portray to anyone potentially interested in joining a club or attending an event. If you don't want new people coming to events, man up and say so. If you do, act like it.

[keithbradley]

You can protest a racers equipment but I don't think it happens very often. I've only seen it happen once.
http://impba.net/attachments/article...les%202012.pdf

Interesting. Has there ever been a situation where the protest was the only means of inspection? Has this already been tried and failed?