2014 NAMBA Fe Nationals

[bozo586]

yes mike all the kids put on a show this year! this was only the gross boys second race to go along with last years michigan cup. both years only one day of practice!!!
this race was great,thanks to everyone who attended. john gross sr. ps---a proud grandfather and mmeu member!

[Doby]

Just posted about 400 pics from the Nats on our Facebook page...

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Grand...63677363764307

[Shooter]

Great pics!!!! Thx!!!!

[Jeff]

Why are we even having this discussion? This is exactly where we were a year ago. Nothing has changed. Doug just mentioned that at the 2015 nats they were burning up motors, now all of a sudden we need to discuss motors. Why? I don't get this at all. Would it not be better for namba to fix the rules they have now? I mean there is a msrp rule and aquacraft changed from a 60 dollar motor to an 80 dollar motor. Aquacraft came out with a generation 2 motor, the one with the stack closer to the pto, the cheap insulated wire and unwrapped rotor. Never was this motor made legal yet it was run in several nats and saw events. Aquacraft came out with a generation 3 motor, the one with the stack moved back, the good insulated wire and the rotor wrapped and some type of tubes on the wire in the end bell. Again this motor wasn't made legal yet it ran at two nats and saw events. I think a good place to start is fixing the rules you have now so they are enforceable.
And as far being honest(you brought up Terry so it is now fair game,) why were motors of a new generation sold to some that others could not get? Where is the honesty in letting that happen at a national? It was know about so don't play dumb.

[Doby]

Why are we even having this discussion? This is exactly where we were a year ago. Nothing has changed. Doug just mentioned that at the 2015 nats they were burning up motors, now all of a sudden we need to discuss motors. Why? I don't get this at all. Would it not be better for namba to fix the rules they have now? I mean there is a msrp rule and aquacraft changed from a 60 dollar motor to an 80 dollar motor. Aquacraft came out with a generation 2 motor, the one with the stack closer to the pto, the cheap insulated wire and unwrapped rotor. Never was this motor made legal yet it was run in several nats and saw events. Aquacraft came out with a generation 3 motor, the one with the stack moved back, the good insulated wire and the rotor wrapped and some type of tubes on the wire in the end bell. Again this motor wasn't made legal yet it ran at two nats and saw events. I think a good place to start is fixing the rules you have now so they are enforceable.
And as far being honest(you brought up Terry so it is now fair game,) why were motors of a new generation sold to some that others could not get? Where is the honesty in letting that happen at a national? It was know about so don't play dumb.

Jeff:

If you are referring the any NAMBA events/Nats...then educate your self with the rulebook...its covered very well that "generational changes" of any approved motors are allowed plus or minus 5% (maybe price would be an issue if they went up more than 5%) but all other changes you mentioned (if true) seem to follow the current rules.

Also, please back up your claim about the "known about" situation about new generation motors only being sold to select individuals..it really sounds like a ridiculous statement without any proof.

OMG the conspiracy theories....what is this...the X-Files?

Is the truth really out there?

[Jeff]

ii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:
(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.
(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.
(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event

Wasn't on the race flyer was it.

As far as the known situation I will let the namba officials who knew about it explain it to you, after all I am not a member so I have no place discussing this.

[Doby]

The race flyer also didn't specify what tape was allowable for hatch sealing......

Really...is that it...wow, the race flyer would be printed on a 4x8 sheet of plywood to cover off what should be common sense in order to protect the learning impaired.

I'm just glad that the FE racing community is so large that it can survive consistent bickering and innuendos...how many people were at the Nats this year...12? 15?.

Can't wait to see next years flyer...Be a Nats Champion...just show up.....1 boat makes a class.!

[Jeff]

There is no rule I could find on hatch tape nor flyer size. There is a rule stating the motors could be made legal by the cd and then put on the flyer. Do you really think rules that you don't like or think are inconsequential should just be ignored? This was my point of pointing out perhaps the rules could be changed to be enforceable. Just see post #61.

[Doby]

There is no rule I could find on hatch tape nor flyer size. There is a rule stating the motors could be made legal by the cd and then put on the flyer. Do you really think rules that you don't like or think are inconsequential should just be ignored? This was my point of pointing out perhaps the rules could be changed to be enforceable. Just see post #61.

So you would be happy to have the flyer say that an already approved motor is allowed?
Why would the obvious have to be stated? Or is the bee in your bonnet about the price increase?

[DPeterson]

Wrong again on the generational motor issue. The third generational change motor Jeff is referring to are the motors that are on the market today. I tried purchasing these motors prior to last years Nats. They were not made available to the general public. However they were made available to a select group of racers. Total bull crap.

I have got the proof by way of e-mail exchange with the AQ Dude himself. I will not name names of the recipients. I don't go that low.

This kind of stuff goes on and on and on in this toy boat hobby. Really quite pathetic. How detailed do want to get with some of the other pathetic shakey stuff that goes on? I'll make time.

[Jeff]

O.K. Terry, this post shows your complete lack of understanding motors. With your high post count you must be having troubles communicating, I will ask you direct questions at the end.
If a generational change of a spec motor is in spec it will not have a performance gain. To quote napolean Dynamite "DUH"
Question #1, Why would aquacraft want it's team members to have the gen 1 or gen 3 motors at a nationals race?
Question #2, Why did you and dave write the rules to have generational changes approved by the cd made legal by the easiest means of just putting it on the flyer but then not following the rules that were voted on?

I really do not have a problem with the rules, just think since every one is supposed to follow them that you should too.

There was an AQ 2030 generational change that was the cause of all the failures. This is my understanding and not the companies official statement. The change was by the manufacture of the motors and was within spec. RTR guys would have never even noticed. Us racers at the edge.......baked potato. Their rep made them change back to the old spec which is what most of us run today. We had one racer that was able to get one of the motors from the old batch because he was a team driver. It was supposed to be what the rest of the motors enroute would be. So he had an old one that was what would be the new ones. I'm not sure how that's illegal. He placed I think 10th with the boat. This is the grand conspiracy Jeff is referring to.

[fas]

ok guys

Doug and Jeff I was the CD at the Nats in 14 in Michigan so if there was something I did wrong then please let me know. As I like to learn from my mistakes There are rules set in order to protest somebody's boat, there were a few guys that came to me about guys running motors that they were not allowed to and I told them the something, wright it down and bring me your money and we will go from there they never did.
By the way they were not classes that you ran so don't jump on that wagon

If you feel that I wasn't good CD a phone call would of been nice instead of putting it out here on the board, I know you two and Terry have had a few words, but I did not know that I was on the same list as him. Its Ok to email and ask me for a favor two weeks ago. and now this thanks, I see where I stand with you, use me and then bash me.

Any questions for me PICK UP THE PHONE AND CALL, KEEP IT OFF THE BOARDS

now back on track

Darin I am with you we need to be proactive and not reactive, flame proof underwear on lets do this

I don't want to see P-Limted classes go away we had a races yesterday 36,, heats if we removed that spec we would of had 9 heats, we need to keep it going


Darin

I think what you listed is a great place to start I know Terry said he would like one motor but I don't think that's a good idea as we will be back in the same boat lol in a few years if that long, give me a few days and I will look at motors that fall into the specs and make a list I think we need to include as much as possible and still keep the performance as close as we can

by the way I suck at typing if you cant tell, but I know it


Fred

[T.S.Davis]

Question #1, Why would aquacraft want it's team members to have the gen 1 or gen 3 motors at a nationals race?
Question #2, Why did you and dave write the rules to have generational changes approved by the cd made legal by the easiest means of just putting it on the flyer but then not following the rules that were voted on?

I took them out of order. Lane violation.

#2 Sorry Jeff my bad. I called it a generational change. Nobody else called it that. AQ wasn't even aware that they had a change until we started baking motors one after another. For the sake of your argument lets say that there was a gen change. Let's call the motors we all baked gen 2. There was no Generation 3. They just brought back the original design as I mentioned. That would be Gen 1 and not a Gen3. Only Proboat ever made an official generational change. However, if we want to say there was then the gen 2 is the only change that happened. So the "DUH" the motors got worse for Gen2. So by your interpretation of the rule, any that raced the G2 motors that tended burn up should have not been allowed to race. The reality is that there never was a generation change. Only a manufacturing hiccup. The next proposal will need a provision for race CD's to go to China to QC all the manufacturing facilities of the legal motors.

In that regard I guess we blew it. We should have DQ'd most of the 2014 NATS attendees. Because the crappy motors weren't legal if we call them a generational change. We didn't. I haven't been a contest director of any kind since 2009 so you'll have to check with him as to why he allowed them. I do know that guy really well though. I hope he doesn't read this nonsense from you. What you're accusing him of may break his heart.

As for the generational allowance that Dave and I wrote in......we were trying to buy ourselves time before we would have to revisit the spec. We knew this would happen eventually where the manufacturers would move on to something else. If I remember correctly we guessed we had about 3 seasons. It held up longer than we thought it would. The approved by the CD thing was so that a race could allow a motor that everyone knew was going to be legal but hadn't made it to the book yet. Like the current 2000kv in the Proboat Blackjack. We let those guys run with us at the club level no problem.

#1 I don't personally know who had which motors. It didn't matter to me because I knew they were just bringing back the original spec and it was therefor NOT a generational change. I tracked down some G1 motors myself but after baking three of them in AZ I opted for all Proboat for the nats. My G1 motors were in the tool box. I am aware of one MMEU club member that had some G1 motors. I don't know if he ran any but I thought that he had. He placed horribly.

Why would a team want it's guys to have motors that don't burn up? This is a redundant question I assume. Meant for others to read and draw your conclusion. How I'm supposed to know who has them and who doesn't is a mystery to me. I get the implication though. Conspiracy again. You feel I'm in on it in an effort to have AQ members place well. I give zero craps about AQ. I think I showed that when I didn't just accept that my setups were wrong and causing all my failures.

Jeff I promise you that those reading this stupid thread can see what's up with what. Your repeated attempts to point out corruption and deceit are falling on deaf ears. Guys that know me and know Dave are not buying any of your BS. Just you and Doug. The surprising thing about it is that I thought we were friends. I know Dave did too. We've all raced together. We've broken bread together. You guys would sooner look for a conspiracy than trust a couple of dedicated toy boaters whose intentions were good. Guys that called you friend. Makes me sad.

Darin, don't give up. Keep trying. Send me emails if you want any pennies from me. I'll do my best to stay off the boards on the topic. Get Jim involved maybe. He's usually a voice of reason.

I still like the single motor approach. Primarily because I'm worn out. Added bonus though! In a year when the motor vanishes I can point fingers at the proposal writers and accuse them of being in (insert your pet motor here)'s pocket. OH! Combine a 5 man committee with 5 approved motors! That's 5 guys we can dissect like 8th graders with frogs.

[DPeterson]

Fred - The only issues I have ever had with the Nats was the number of classes and the issue of sitting around while a hand full of guys run for high points. It just does not add up for many of us to participate in this. There - I said it again. It is what it is. Otherwise my hat is off to you Fred for the hard work you do for the races. The generation 3 motor that did not meet the rule of 100 units sold to the public, but yet was made available to a few, was investigated by me and proven out in an e-mail exchange about two weeks after the race. The proof was forwarded to the necessary persons. You and Terry were not involved and nobody said you were. Not sure why you two feel you are blamed for something. I would never had made this public had I not been constantly hammered by Terry in this thread. If he wants proof of these pitiful things I can provide it. And really all it does is gives us more reason to not participate. That should make you all really happy.

Good luck fellas figuring out this major P-Limited motor issue.

[Jeff]

Here is generation 3 from post


Grimracer



09-02-2014, 05:10 PM




Thread: NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion
Grimracer is offline Senior Member


Join Date:Nov 2008Location:ILPosts:662


Default



Attachment 120289Attachment 120290Attachment 120291


Well.. I got some time so............
The changes are.......
Segmented Magnets
Carbon Fiber mag wrap
Fiberglass wire sleeves
Heavy insulating varnish on .013" hard copper wires
Updated stator construction

That’s all I got.. Choose your weapon!
I am out of here.. time to go racing and lets let the chips fall where they might. I am signed off…
Grimracer


Michael Grimracer Zaborowski
AquaCraft Boat Designer

[Doby]

So had this info been on the race flyer, you and your fellow cheese-heads would have been happy?

[T.S.Davis]

We didn't put on the flier the "gen 2" motors either. Everyone that brought a "gen 2" motor was cheating.

I borrowed a boat yesterday for P limited mono. It had one of the crap motors in it. Perfect heats.

[ray schrauwen]

Here is generation 3 from post


Grimracer



09-02-2014, 05:10 PM




Thread: NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion
Grimracer is offline Senior Member


Join Date:Nov 2008Location:ILPosts:662


Default



Attachment 120289Attachment 120290Attachment 120291


Well.. I got some time so............
The changes are.......
Segmented Magnets
Carbon Fiber mag wrap
Fiberglass wire sleeves
Heavy insulating varnish on .013" hard copper wires
Updated stator construction

That’s all I got.. Choose your weapon!
I am out of here.. time to go racing and lets let the chips fall where they might. I am signed off…
Grimracer


Michael Grimracer Zaborowski
AquaCraft Boat Designer

I remember this post and I remember asking where I could get one and no answer???
I still have no idea if OSE, etc has old or new stock??? Can't trust EBay sellers, they are clueless.

[longballlumber]

For god’s sake how did it even get to this point!?!?!

I know you guys are looking to stay on topic, but I have been indirectly drug thru the mud on this thread…

For anyone that doesn’t already know about whom the mystery motor belongs to, it was me (Mike Ball). There you go Doug and Jeff; you can spread my name around as much as you want. Regardless, I am not sure how this talk about favoritism is helping to solve the problem. Besides, everyone is still burning up motors anyhow; right? For the record, my stance on the subject hasn’t changed; before the nats, at the nats, or after the nats. I don’t/haven’t burnt up motors anywhere CLOSE to the frequency others have experienced. I know, I know… “special treatment/equipment” – TOTAL BS!

For a short background, I have been working with the AquaCraft Team on product development, product testing, and state of the hobby reporting. I have been maintaining this relationship since ’08-’09 (I don’t recall the exact date it was established). I would like to think I have “given back” to the hobby by giving honest feedback to those that request it; whether that was AquaCraft Management about their products or our local boaters on boat set ups, radios, batteries, etc. Nor do I feel that I have EVER pounded the AquaCraft Brand down any racers/clubs throats. I do my best to let my honest personality, and the performance of my boats do the talking.

About the motor; I will start by saying there was no mulishness, no deceitfulness, or deception intended by using the motor at the 2014 Nats. It didn’t immediately occur to me at the time of the event that using the motor would be an issue. If there was ANY inclination this was seen as an issue with a SINGLE racer at the event, I would have immediately changed motors. As a matter of fact, I am disappointed in myself for not recognizing this WITHOUT the need of someone else bringing their displeasure to the forefront months later. That was my biggest personal mistake (not recognizing the potential controversy)! I apologize for that.

The funny thing is I had a discussion about “the motor” with Mr. Peterson at the Nats. If I recall correctly, I even showed the motor to Mr. Peterson. I believed his comment was, “It looks exactly the same”. Nothing more was said about the situation. I would have much rather heard his thoughts on the situation then. We wouldn’t be in this situation if that would have happened. The way this particular subject is being handled is ridiculous. IF my motivation was to be deceitful, I would have never discussed these motors with Doug; especially Doug! Myself and many others already knew of his displeasure for AquaCraft. The conversation I had with Doug was only an attempt to communicate AquaCraft was working to bring the 2030 motors back to their original vintage that everyone grew to love. I had that same conversation with other respectable FE racers also. Terry has already mentioned that my performance with ALL of my boats at the 2014 Nats, was lackluster at best. It must have been the mot… nevermind…

This same issue was brought up a few months back on this forum. At that time, I call Doug directly apologizing and explained the same thing written above. I have stated my peace to Doug. I am certain our phone conversation was communicated to Jeff and anyone else in Doug’s inner racing circle. At this point those two seem to be the most upset and jaded. Evidently, that conversation wasn’t enough for Doug to understand there was no deceitfulness was intended.

Now, anyone that has been following this dreadful conversation about P-Limited mystery motor hopefully has the “who” on the mystery motor.
If anyone needs more explanation, has questions, or wants to channel their P-Limited motor anger at me; feel free to contact me via PM and I will supply my phone number. I will be glad to have an ACTUAL person to person discussion on the phone.

Later,
Ball

[rayzerdesigns]

awesome response ball..funny how people try and throw others under the buss to make themselves look better..though we all know better...its great to hear your side of the story...thx..now maybe we can move along with a decent conversation about motors..i applaud aq for making changes when it was needed..sure we still burn some up..but given we are trying to extract every ounce of power from them..im sure other motors will burn up also..

[T.S.Davis]

I remember this post and I remember asking where I could get one and no answer???
I still have no idea if OSE, etc has old or new stock??? Can't trust EBay sellers, they are clueless.

Did ya notice the date of the post? Over 2 months after the nats.

The flier should have read something like "in addition to the 36-56-2030 – 6 pole brushless motor, the 36-56-2030 – 6 pole brushless motor, and the 36-56-2030 – 6 pole brushless will be legal."

Mike and I argue about stuff all the time. It's usually over something we shouldn't even be arguing about. I will tell you this......he's painfully honest. Bordering on annoyingly so. haha He tells me the truth even when I don't want to hear it.

These weren't generational changes. They were basically lot numbers. A batch run. Again, only my understanding. Like when you buy floor tile and you get boxes from different batches and notice heyyyy wait a minute....these are a little different. I have two bar stools like this. Bought em together. We only found the difference when we were at the edge. The RTR market they were designed for never noticed a thing.

Darin, I have some SSS motors to measure if you didn't get them. Have to pick up another set of calipers on the way home. Mine are oddly missing. They're supposed to be 36mm but I don't think so. Looks over at a glance. Think they're too heavy too. Gotta check.