Newbie here looking for next boat

[TonyM995]

Hello! I?ve got a Thrasher v3 jet boat and a Traxxas m41 with stainless prop and a motor cooling jacket upgrade. The faster catamaran is more my style and I?m considering a faster boat but really came on here to hopefully make some online friends, learn, and if there are local clubs to the Denver metro area I?d love to connect with them.

I?ve got a paddle board to retrieve the m41 if it flips but often the wind/current is coming at me so I generally just use a River tube to get it because it?s been warm and feels good to get in the water. Maybe there are other things I can do to increase the joy of the hobby? Either upgrades or a better maintenance stand.


I?m looking at the TFL Zonda SD or the Genesis 56. Both fiberglass twin engine. Possibly Max Amps batteries unless you all have other suggestions.

I drive a 2012 Honda Civic 4 door so the Zonda would fit much easier and I could probably take it to more locations easier. Both seem to need a lot of room to stretch their legs and I?m just trying to enjoy them in all conditions. It?s windy here so I don?t see smooth as glass water too much and enjoy the rough stuff anyway. The 56 seems like a better option for rough water.

What other catamarans should I consider? I can wire race motorcycles and cars so I should be able to build a hull or kit if that?s the move.

I?d love to hear all your thoughts.

I took this on Saturday at 7:30 am but there are a lot of paddle boarders and people swimming at peak hours on the weekends so I try to stay away as to not upset anyone. This is close to home and where I go the most.
https://youtu.be/WmvLEB18chU

[fweasel]

First off, don't waste a single dollar on anything MaxxAmps sells. One of the worst lipo batteries on the market as proven countless times in independent testing. Not to mention, overpriced.

The Zonda would run okay in that water, but you'd never be able to realize it's speed potential, which would be frustrating, and ultimately lead to a lot of flipping and rescues. The 56 Genesis handles great and was one of my favorite RTR boats ever, but it's big and needs room to run. Not sure how deep the water is at that little lake when it nears the shore and if you'd be able to loop around behind those trees in the distance. But to just zip zip back and forth like you were with the M41, the big Genesis would not be ideal.

[TonyM995]

Hi Ryan! Oh wow I didn?t know that about Max Amps.

The water gets deep fast. The water level is so high and those trees used to be the shoreline. For full size boats the speed limit is around 50 mph and I park at that location because the water is so close to the parking lot. The coves like that are often more smooth than that day.

Chatfield reservoir is the location.
https://cpw.state.co.us/placestogo/parks/Chatfield

What are some non RTR boats I could look at?

[fweasel]

Hi Ryan! Oh wow I didn?t know that about Max Amps.

The water gets deep fast. The water level is so high and those trees used to be the shoreline. For full size boats the speed limit is around 50 mph and I park at that location because the water is so close to the parking lot. The coves like that are often more smooth than that day.

Chatfield reservoir is the location.
https://cpw.state.co.us/placestogo/parks/Chatfield

What are some non RTR boats I could look at?

Well, non-RTR would be anything you build yourself, starting with an empty hull and pockets full of money. Sky is the limit.

The Zonda hull made by DYmotorshop comes as an empty hull, hull & hardware, or as a RTR with electronics. Or you can make the jump up to an MHZ114 hull. MHZ sells a ARTR version or empty hull too.

[TonyM995]

You mentioned a Genesis wouldn?t be ideal. I read that as a 56? boat wouldn?t be ideal.

Any thoughts on what would be a better fit?

The MHZ looks similar enough that I?m thinking since this would be my first fast boat, a more cost effective option like the Genesis would be a good idea to start with. I?ve got $2500 in two boats as it is so to have that in one seems like a reasonable step up.

I?ll keep reading the forums and appreciate any and all thoughts.

[fweasel]

You mentioned a Genesis wouldn?t be ideal. I read that as a 56? boat wouldn?t be ideal.

Any thoughts on what would be a better fit?

The MHZ looks similar enough that I?m thinking since this would be my first fast boat, a more cost effective option like the Genesis would be a good idea to start with. I?ve got $2500 in two boats as it is so to have that in one seems like a reasonable step up.

I?ll keep reading the forums and appreciate any and all thoughts.

It looks like that body of water is a little tight for a 56" cat, like the large Genesis. TFL also makes the Genesis in a 37" hull as both a single and twin, but that's smaller than what you're running now.

[TonyM995]

I went out on lunch today and just paddled out beyond the trees. More than enough room but I’m generally too lazy to walk that far for the traxxas because it’s not needed for that boat but the range was a lot more than I realized. Traxxas says “long range” but that’s ambiguous.

TFL said it’s $1344 and $469 for FedEx. $1813 plus batteries/remote.

Obviously cheaper but it seems the esc doesn’t have any lipo cut off protection. Is that accurate or do they have protection so I don’t burn up $400 in batteries?

for RTR I found an Arrow Shark for $3866. Just over double but the quality appears higher than anything else RTR I’ve seen. It still needs batteries/radio but if it’s worth it then I’ll consider it.

https://www.arrowshark.com/2020/goods.php?id=398#none

my thought is if the Genesis is good enough to learn on then it makes sense to learn there. Because I have little experience it wouldn’t make sense to jump to the highest level of equipment if I don’t have the experience/skills to use it without destroying it, then no need to spend the extra money.

Does this apply to all boats? I don’t use full throttle so the esc/motor can cool off with water flow.
“DO NOT OPERATE THIS BOAT AT PARTIAL THROTTLE FOR EXTENDED TIMES. THIS IS A HIGH PERFORMANCE BOAT INTENDED TO GO FAST. CRUISING SLOW OR AT PARTIAL THROTTLE FOR EXTENDED TIMES WILL SEVERELY DAMAGE THE ESC!”
https://oxideanmarine.com/products/o...-carbon-kevlar

I’d love to have other people to run these with but I don’t so that’s that. I read two 50 mph boats is more fun than a 100 mph boat.

[TonyM995]

Pictures from today:

IMG_8579.jpg

IMG_8580.jpg

[Xrayted]

Yes, its is inefficient to run ANY brushless motor/ESC at partial throttle in any RC vehicle. Brushless motors and ESCs are most efficient at or near 100% duty cycle, and need to be configured to the way that you intend to run the model.

This is because the full voltage from the battery is always there, and the PWM signal needs to "chop" that full voltage into smaller pieces at lower throttle to slow the boat, and that creates excessive heat as that energy needs to go somewhere. Think of what PWM is doing as a light switch. The full voltage is still being sent to the light, but you can either slowly flip the light switch on/off and get a dimmer light, or you could switch in on/off rapidly so that it appears normal as if always on.

That's what your esc is doing at all times, and it creates something called battery ripple which is the drop in voltage between the on and off PWM cycle. This ripple if too high is an electronics killer and can cause things to burn. The capacitors on the ESC are there to help smooth out and reduce the ripple, but they can be overwhelmed and fail with a bad setup, possibly causing the ESC to light up and burn.

Ripple is lowest at zero and 100% throttle, and absolutely the worst at 50% throttle because now the on cycle is just as long as the off cycle. Its very important to choose the correct KV motor for the RPM and prop you want to run, as using the throttle to slow down a too fast boat with too high a KV is going to get things hotter than they need to be. Its doesnt mean that you always have to run wide open, but you dont want to just be slow cruising around all the time because you dont have enough space and boat is too fast for the pond. In this case you will be better off to drop to lower voltage packs, for example using 4-5 cell lipos on a boat that was built for 6S. This way the boat is slower and easier to manage, and the throttle can stay wide open most of the time

Also consider that some FE boats need at least 30 MPH just to get proper water feed for cooling, and running them too slow added to the ESC inefficiency becomes a double whammy working against you

[TonyM995]

Thank you so much! That’s wildly helpful, I saw the capacitors and never thought about why they are there. This is why I would be very hesitant about buying an expensive ($4k+) boat. Also I’m building a turbo 2022 Hayabusa and that’s not cheap.

This is awesome and that comment is really going to help me enjoy the hobby more because now I don’t have to feel bad about holding it wide open.

The Genesis 56 feels like a winner for my use case. Any suggestions on what connectors I should use? They have the bullet connectors and said I can pick a different one when I asked about it.

Any other questions I should ask myself or you guys before pulling the trigger? Should I get a single engine or twin engine? I was going to go with the twin but if the twin is a pain or if I get almost the same performance/fun then I’d be cool with saving even more money hahaha.

It would be nice to order something that’s already in the US but I’m not going to pay $500 more to get it 4 weeks sooner.

[Xrayted]

I use large, 8mm connectors in all of my FE boats. And even then the wires and connectors will be hot, but this is normal as even 8-10G wires are not meant to have 150-300 amps flowing for minutes at a time. Smaller bullets only increase the resistance and cause things to be even hotter. https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pr...d=ose-qs8-anti

Single vs dual motor setup is just a personal choice up until a certain point where they are so big and heavy. You almost always see big CATS setup as a twin. A single setup can be just as fast a dual setup on smaller boats up to around 40" or so. Yes you have twice the motor, but you also have the added weight of twice the ESC and batteries

[TonyM995]

Perfect thank you! That looks like the xt90 connector that came on the Thrasher v3 I spent $1500 on and it’sa nice boat but not my speed.

After I replied I’m thinking that I’d like to just get a single engine boat that’s in the US so I can just order it and start playing and keep learning. It’s less complexity and there is already so much to learn. My next boat not likely to be my last and I enjoy learning these technical details that you’ve shared.

Any thoughts on a place in the US with boats in stock that anyone can suggest? Thanks again for the conversation, I really enjoy how much knowledge this forum is filled with.

[Xrayted]

I would also suggest that you consider a mono to begin with, as that hull design can handle rough water at speed without flipping near as easily as a cat. Fast cats need fairly smooth water, and they don't typically turn well at speed and will hook and roll over. You will spend more time going out to rescue it than you will a mono that is more forgiving, but can still be very fast so possibly less frustration as you learn.

I have TFL Ariane 36" mono bought from the same guy in the link above I provided for the connectors that does 80 MPH with a motor and prop swap, but is in the 55 MPH range with the stock setup which is still fast and a blast to run. Steve is also the owner of this forum. He does have some RTR models available. You will have anything from him within a week typically

https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pr...s+RTR+%26+ARTR

[Xrayted]

Double post

[TonyM995]

That looks like a great next step. Opposite of what I thought I wanted but I’m not above that boat and it looks perfect to learn on, tune, and modify.

This one right?
https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pr...24L-F-4092-180
IMG_8586.jpg

[TonyM995]

He’s got a carbon fiber one also in stock. The adrenaline junkie in me automatically wants the 51” dual motor hahaha.

Here is my last time out at the track last year on my zx6.
https://youtu.be/hef2o_EgZ1A

This year I’m building a 2022 Hayabusa and am having a turbo kit fabricated for it. I’m almost done and just haven’t filmed any update but I started with an unterminated harness and did all of the wiring myself.
https://youtu.be/2EpEjSoEaNA

[fweasel]

I use OSE 8mm anti-spartk connectors on all of my 4S and 6S batteries, which is what you'll be running in a boat this large for 8S, 10S, and 12S configurations.


Here's a picture of the setup I had in my 56" Genesis

Clean4.jpg

I shortened the length of the hydraulic rams and inserted a carbon fiber plate shim in between the rudder mount and hull to correct the steering travel limitations:

PXL_20211011_172743663.jpg
PXL_20211010_231713650.jpg
PXL_20211010_221904185.jpg
PXL_20211010_221710229.jpg

The solder joint on the stock flex cables was terrible and created an imbalance. They both needed to be replaced.

[Xrayted]

Nice Bike! Yes, that is boat I have. Mine is the carbon version. The ARTR version comes with a 1650KV motor, which is still perfect for heat running with 6S batteries. I bumped mine up to a 2000KV motor that I already had laying around, and a more aggressive prop, and I easily hit 80mph with straight-line SAW type runs, but be aware heat starts to become an issue with any FE boat once you start pushing things to the edge like that.

You will need to go through every part of TFL ARTR boats like that. The hardware is just finger tight in many circumstances, so its just essentially showing you where the parts go, but a good way to get a package deal until you become more familiar and can comfortably do a custom build using all the parts sourced yourself.

The only true RTR boats on the OSE site are any of the more mainstream Pro Boat versions from Horizon Hobby. Those are pretty much plug and play for the most part for the beginner masses, but some of them are quick! I have a Pro Boat Miss Geico Twin myself, and that is a 100 MPH straight line boat with nothing more than custom props

Here is a pic of my current TFL. I use a canopy from the fiberglass version so that GPS will work in the boat since CF block the signal. I painted it flat red to have a contrast between the shiny carbon and the canopy, but more to make the boat easier to see when sitting out on the water, as its low profile just looks like a shadow out there in certain light sometimes, plus all my water cooling is also red to match

[TonyM995]

FWeasel/Ryan- wow Thats a beautiful boat. Thanks for sharing the pictures!

xRayted/Tony- damn I love the red hatch and carbon hull. I will definitely do something similar if I end up with a carbon hull.

It is clear that I need to pump the brakes and learn/read more. Ryan I know you have a build thread I can dig through and Tony if you have one let me know.

I know wiring for motorcycles and cars but everything is 5 volts to read from sensors and the main fuse is 30 amps. A fuel pump, rectifier, and fan are the outputs that draw the most current.

300 amps is still mind blowing to me and I have seen myself being impatient like this (wanting something now) enough times that it is clear to me the same happened here.

I fried the electronics on my m41 this weekend by holding it wide open an entire battery pack. Hopefully the batteries are okay. Ordered the upgraded motor/esc from OSE Steve and it seems like that upgrade will be somewhat comparable to what the 36” Ariane has. I got a temperature sensing gun and instead of using it to check the heat and have a better understanding of the load the electronics were experiencing, I just pushed and melted them. Oops, my bad. That proved to me I am being impatient.

My current thought is to get the m41 going again, keep reading here, and talking to everyone here. Then I’ll likely go with something 50” to handle the waves.

To honor the impatient little boy that apparently still lives inside me, I joined the Jeffco Air Modelers and will buy an airplane to play with. They have a super nice field in the same state park that I run my boats at. This will give me humans to talk to and play rc with.

You guys can repair and setup these boats. I do not have any experience with that and with the plane it was suggested I buy some certain glue and repair items. It seems like there will be some cross over with learning how to work with and repair the rc plane/boat. The entire plane and parts are $400. A guy there is selling me a used remote for $250 so that is not bad to get started.

[Xrayted]

Wow that sucks things got cooked on your M41! Was the upgraded prop you mentioned in the OP a bigger or higher pitch prop from stock? As stated before, brushless motors/ESCs are more efficient when running wide open, but you must make sure you have adequate cooling as well, or any setup will eventually fail from overheating if not. I know it doesnt matter now, but as you learned, always bring the model after a minute or so and evaluate the temps

I made the same mistake pushing things too far on my twin Miss Geico when I first got it. The boat is already right on the edge stock of being able to keep cool with the stock 1716 props on 6S, but I was running a set of hotter speed props and kept going for one too many laps in a row and she just shut down. The there was a loud "pop" sound about 30 seconds later and then smoke out of the nose!

Once retrieved I discovered that one of the ESCs had caught fire, and the pressure caused the nose of the FG hull to split at the seam because it was taped up so tightly! I never got the soot and smell out of the hull as I originally wanted to repair it, but just decided to toss it out and start new.

I would have known the cooling limits with that different prop if had just brought it in a bit sooner and checked the temps.

Good luck!

[TonyM995]

Haha I’m just glad it was on the m41 vs a twin engine that would cost a lot more to fix. The temp gun was left at home so all I can do is laugh at myself.

It does matter and that’s great advice to bring it in after a minute. Before I was doing that because the drive strut would not stay in place and that would really over heat the electronics. I finally had that in good alignment and it wasn’t moving at all during the run. So I stopped bringing it in and was just hanging too much fun jumping the waves out in the middle of the lake. I went way out in the middle vs standing at the shore.

Thanks again for all of your help!! Thanks for sharing your melt down too, glad I am not the only one. :)

Here is the prop I bought. It seems identical to stock but made of stainless. Before this I had the brass one; it bent from a stick or something in the water so I got the stainless one. It seems like learning about different props is a great next step for me.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273592798081

[Xrayted]

Yikes, $79 for a CNC prop on Ebay! It doesnt say what the specific diameter and pitch is though, and only says "hot racing" in the description which makes me think its a more aggressive prop than stock, and possibly why your RTR boat got overheated.

Find out what the stock diameter and pitch is, and you can get one for $20 here in the future if needed: https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/ca...CNC+Propellers

[TonyM995]

Yeah that’s what happens when people try to get into a hobby like this without the help of others… I got the 2 year plan for free but this has to rank up there in not the best use of money. I’m happy to have more guidance now.

It has a lot of cavitation when trying to get going.

using the search function here would have helped a lot before buying but I hadn’t found the forums at that time.

“The stock prop is 42mm x59mm which = 3.82 total pitch.”
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...p-vs-cnc-props

The one I bought says this if you click on Full Description:

Prop diameter: 42mm (1.65 inch)
Prop pitch: 63mm (2.48 inch)

[Xrayted]

Good info thanks! So it is a hotter prop at about 4 inches of total pitch vs the stock 3.8 (diameter X pitch = total prop pitch). Not a huge difference from stock, but stock is already a high pitch prop to begin with, and it could have been enough to overheat things going even higher, especially if the stock setup was already right on the cusp of being able to keep things cool enough to begin with.

[NativePaul]

If you want some fun in rough water i would consider moving to a self righting mono rather than a bigger cat, if you stayed at a similar size to the M41 you could transfer the electrics and save a fortune, or even if you want to keep both runnable a <3' boats costs a hell of a lot less to power than a 4' one, and while a 4' boat will be more capable in the rough stuff you will be much more willing to take a smaller self righting hull up to and past its limits of capability, which can be a LOT of fun.

[TonyM995]

Hey Paul, great point and i would be open to that if I could find one that excites me. Did you have one in mind? I have a 27” Thrasher v3 on 6S; it is a jet boat so not fast but I drive it up rapids backwards on a river by me and its a lot of fun in rapids . The pro boat sonic wake 36” seems to be the only self righting boat around. Oxidean dominator it’s another choice but the things I read on here about BO are not great.

For the roughest conditions it seems the TFL Princess 51 looks to be the king but it probably doesn’t fit in my car haha and is not my style but it looks fun!
https://youtu.be/FK6e7CjIQZ8


I love the look of the yellow Arrow Shark but they seem wildly overpriced and I cannot justify that price for a boat where I live. Someone told me I could get kicked out of the state park lake where I go but the people that have seen me run had nothing but positive feedback so idk.

To your point it does feel a lot ‘lighter’ to have a lower cost toy you can run hard and not worry about breaking it or burning up expensive electronics. I would really like a TFL Ariane 51 but do not think I am quite ready for it in terms of my knowledge of this hobby. Plus I would hate to spend that much only to get kicked out of the state park lake I use.

Picked up a plane to use at the rc air field. Joined the club and the president will help me or any new members with assembly and flight lessons. So I have that to play with as I figure out a good intermediate boat which will be a mono for sure now that I have more input from you guys.

[Peter A]

The Sonicwake would be a good choice for now just to thrash and bash. There are a number of upgrade parts available and plenty of threads etc on upgrades.

[NativePaul]

The Ecomaster big slider or RCsails hulk are top banana 4-6s self righting monos if you dont care aboutu scale looks, or the hydro and marine speedman is still much better than the typical RTR and pretty scale looking.

[TonyM995]

How is Bonzi customer service and boat quality? I called them and he said any of their boats can be made for electric. He is going to send me an email with a few options for mono hulls.

Here are calm conditions for me that I took today at 6:30 am. My guess is a FE catamaran would not be as fun as you all mentioned.
https://youtu.be/HaMTuAU5bFc

The boat in that video is a Thrasher v3 on 6S lipo. It can take anything you throw at it. Normally I bring it to man made rapids and can jump off a rock wall down to the lower level water and rip up the rapids backwards. It is fun but I prefer faster boats.
https://order.streamlinerc.com/colle...-v3-collection

Whatever I buy has to excite me and a Pro Boat or equivalent is a step down from the two boats I own. Thanks for the discussion!!!

[fweasel]

The Thrasher is a nice boat. The M41 is plastic entry level, and no worse than anything Proboat has. Bonzi does quality builds. Their Epic 60 is one of the best v-bottom hulls around in that size.