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Thread: Cap banks - the pre-emptive answer

  1. #301
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    Top of the season to you Doc, it has been a while. Just read the whole thread(for the most part) and now have a bit better understanding though now the brain is overloaded.LOL

    So the current project is an AC R-42 with twin 1717's and FC 8s300 ESC's. Am planning on running 5-6s2p per side(Dinogy 3300mah all) and am now at the point to consider a good cap arrangement. This is to be the
    Hull that rips 70 or so around the course just for fun(4-5 laps). So I am looking for a recommendation. Thank you for taking the time, Shawn

  2. #302
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    Top of the season indeed !
    Weatherman predicts something around 41'celcius for my new year's eve
    Im getting a few in early to prevent dehydration

    Why limit to 6600 a side when you can blow out to 10,000 ?..

    1717/1580 are Y winds which demand more from a 100% launch than possible at 100% rpm .. so bottom end surge capability is what you should aim for.... with a little ripple coverage higher up.

    Expect all those 8S300A can handle if you spin big wheels...

    I advise 3000→5000uf as the vague magic number for capbanks ..but how that is determined depends on your application.

    In your case of high demand on launch, and ripple clipping later on, use 8x 63V1000uf per esc as below

    +.batt.-
    +.......-
    +o-+o-
    +o-+o-
    +o-+o-
    +o-+o-
    +......-
    +.esc.-

    zoom zoom

    best of your wintry season to you, mate .. your welcome to the cold !!!
    Last edited by drwayne; 12-28-2014 at 04:10 PM.
    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  3. #303
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    Thanks Doc, It iis not TOO cold here but certainly not 41 Celsius. We have a small desert/lake region not far from here that can see 40 degrees in the summer, I used to live there so I suggest the hydration. I used to go with a nice Pale Ale

    Happy New Year to you and best wishes for the coming builds

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by srislash View Post
    Thanks Doc, It iis not TOO cold here but certainly not 41 Celsius. We have a small desert/lake region not far from here that can see 40 degrees in the summer, I used to live there so I suggest the hydration. I used to go with a nice Pale Ale

    Happy New Year to you and best wishes for the coming builds
    Not too uncommon here for 40+'c for week or more at a time.. nights of 35'c .. love the weather here .. :)

    Im 100% sure USA no longer has God looking over them, because he is down here brewing beer at Cooper's brewery...
    Im less than 3 miles from this Chapel of beer, and often scent him brewing more of his nectar ... that Coopers plagiarize as their own , labeled Coopers Pale Ale ... pure bliss ...

    Waiting on MichaelB to start/finish the new plug and mold for my next drag hydro build .. photos somewhere on OSE under his name . Zoom Zoom
    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  5. #305
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    I can't wait to see the Problem Child, I have been lurking my friend. I really dig the Drag Hydro concept. Or flat bottom for that matter.

  6. #306
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    Hello.
    I have the Seaking 120A esc and i have replace the stock caps with Rubycon 35v 1000uf Capacitor (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...k-cap-35v-1000)
    i just desolder the stock 2 pieces caps and solder the new ones at the same places and polarity...
    Is that good tip for my esc???
    I run the esc with 4S and some times 5S with a TP Power 2100KV Apparition Cat

    Thanks so much!!!!!!!!!

  7. #307
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    Guys, instead of using the big 1000uf rubycon capbanks ... would doubling up on the 560uf caps work just as good as the bigger ones? I have these on hand and was thinking of just soldering up my own cap banks for much cheaper (bought a bag of like 12 of them for $5 bucks) instead of buying the pre-made swordfish cap banks for $15 bucks a pop...

  8. #308
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    You are better off with using two you have than a single 1000uf cap.

    Many of you're questions are already answered in the earlier pages of this thread. It's good reading and you can learn lots.
    Nortavlag Bulc

  9. #309
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    The type of capacitors makes as difference too. ZL Rubycons are a choice of some top saw guys. The goal is to decrease ripple voltage as much as possible so your esc lasts longer under heavy use not to increase its capacity or ability to pass more current than rated.
    Nortavlag Bulc

  10. #310
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    After reading this I have concluded that if you compare two banks with the same total capacitance the bank with more capacitors is more effective at controlling ripple than the one with a less number of larger capacitors. Does it work this way because there are more capacitors, or do the smaller capacitors actually work better? It seems we are just assuming the smaller capacitors work better and maybe that IS the case.

    This is important because if it is total capacitor count that gives the advantage then maybe everyone is dropping down to smaller caps for no real reason? Instead use the same number of larger. For example 8x 460 is a better bank than 4x 1000; but is it better than 8x 1000? Using the larger caps takes the same amount of soldering and only a little extra space.

  11. #311
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    Also search for "Low ESR" and a "Hi Temp" rating.
    These options are listed on electronic sites like
    Mouser, MCM, Newark, Digi-Key etc.
    They are important factors in getting the best Capacitors
    for our high demand applications.
    TenShock Brushless / Pro Marine
    NEU Motors / Rico Racing/ Castle Creations
    2023 NAMBA & 2018 IMPBA FE High Points "National Champion"

  12. #312
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    So I have read the entire thread and my take on it is that ... a cap bank made up of smaller caps that is arranged in series and parallel will allow the caps to recharge fast enough to keep a constant flow of voltage to your ESC to avoid drops when under load. Does that mean it'll actually allow it to go faster and reach higher RPM under load (for a high RPM setups-- 50-60k rpm) when theres no voltage drop compared to a scenario where you are not running w/ a series cap bank ?

    drwayne: Would 4-8 count of rubycon 35v 560uf ZLH caps be suitable in parallel & series for a 6s 2050kv (50k rpm) twin cat setup? and would it be beneficial to share that bank among both sides?

    Looking at my data log below -- is it normal to have a voltage drop like this? I'm using the 4x1000uf rubycon zlh 63v swordfish cap bank with this one...
    Shows lowest voltage as 23.4v and this was only using 45mm cnc props at the time as well with same tp 4050 2050kv on 6s as mentioned above.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by dmitry100; 09-05-2015 at 01:17 PM.

  13. #313
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    Oh my .. Ive not ventured here in 9 months .. a most pregnant pause LOL
    more smaller Vs less bigger.
    smaller caps will give a much faster refresh than larger ..although delayed.. the larger will feed more energy back
    In the data above .. there is simply not enough total capacitance .. if you check the graph .. the caps hold voltage for around 1/3 the acceleration period before the voltage drop commences .. and the delay to recover afterwards is when those starving caps recharge..
    Smaller caps generally combat high freq ripples .. larger caps control large voltage drop
    and ... TP4050s are unlikely to survive >4000W for long.. the graph touches 4750

    tp-ouch-sb.jpg

    regs
    W

    Quote Originally Posted by dmitry100 View Post
    So I have read the entire thread and my take on it is that ... a cap bank made up of smaller caps that is arranged in series and parallel will allow the caps to recharge fast enough to keep a constant flow of voltage to your ESC to avoid drops when under load. Does that mean it'll actually allow it to go faster and reach higher RPM under load (for a high RPM setups-- 50-60k rpm) when theres no voltage drop compared to a scenario where you are not running w/ a series cap bank ?

    drwayne: Would 4-8 count of rubycon 35v 560uf ZLH caps be suitable in parallel & series for a 6s 2050kv (50k rpm) twin cat setup? and would it be beneficial to share that bank among both sides?

    Looking at my data log below -- is it normal to have a voltage drop like this? I'm using the 4x1000uf rubycon zlh 63v swordfish cap bank with this one...
    Shows lowest voltage as 23.4v and this was only using 45mm cnc props at the time as well with same tp 4050 2050kv on 6s as mentioned above.

    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  14. #314
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    Thanks for the response, DrWayne... I was wondering when you might come around here again!

    What kind of a cap layout should I use for this particular twin cat setup setup in parallel? (6s on 2050kv)

    I recently bought some Rubycon ZL 470uf 50v caps (from Newark) and am in the process of making a bank consisting of 18 caps total in parallel/series like you have outlined in previous posts for a total capacitance of 4,230 uf to be shared between the 2 sides.

    Should I use even smaller 35v ZL caps for this setup? Like 330uf instead, or 220uf even?

    Also, do the age of caps effect their performance? I have found good deals on them by US sellers on Ebay but they are from around 2007, 2003, etc.
    Last edited by dmitry100; 09-18-2015 at 06:26 PM.

  15. #315
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    Hi.
    Im not receiving notifications from here about new postings, sorry for delay.

    if you're setting 18 caps into parallel / series pair .. you have 9 sets of series pairs in parallel ?

    see attached pic fo eg .. lol..
    a series pair of 470uf totals at 235uf .. where total = (C1xC2)/(C1+C2)
    so 9 sets of those is not your aforementioned 4230uf.. more like 2115uf

    35V caps for a 6S (22V) setup is better than 63V rated caps, yes... but youalways need +10% minimum headroom above the total voltage else the caps will perish.
    smaller than 470uf Ive found togive less than optimal recharge ability

    re old capacitors ..old stock is cheap because good electronics assemblers wont trust them for longevity or correctness in application

    8x2capbank.jpg
    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  16. #316
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    Hello
    I have an Apparition cat with TPPOWER 3640 2080KV at 6S for SAW and Seaking 120Amp
    I have made a cap bank with 5 pieces 1000μF 35V at series ....so i have 2500μF right???(Now i have made a 4 pieces at series 2200μF 35V to test)
    Another question what if i use just a single Cap at 4700μF 35V.Will that work???
    Thanks!!!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #317
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    Nikolas: Read the entire thread... all the info you're asking about is all there. Especially if you look a few posts above....

  18. #318
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    I all ready read the above post my friend but im asking for my case
    Im trying to learn....
    But thanks for your help!!!!!!

  19. #319
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    Ok, then no its not better to use those huge caps because they will recharge much slower than smaller ones.

    So make a cap bank consisting of smaller ones like around ~470uf 35v....

  20. #320
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    How many caps do you thing sould I use???
    In series or parallel???
    Thanks so much!!!!!!

  21. #321
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    Hi Nikolas

    Capacitors add together when parallel total = C1+C2+C3 ....
    resistors add in series .. total = R1+R+R3

    your photo shows capacitors in series ... where C1+C2+C3+C4 .. = total
    2500uf is enough, yes ... but the 1000uf are too big and energy hungry .. is much better with 330uf or 470uf to make 1500→2000uf total for the 120A on 6S

    Dmitry ..
    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  22. #322
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    drwayne: Is there any particular reason to have additional caps close to the ESC pcb? I see alot of people doing it, so was just wondering if theres a reason for it... versus the way you outline here in the thread.

    Also, if say I have space to solder additional caps onto the PCB (in parallel or series)... would that be a good idea, or would it be best to just add any additional ones on the leads instead? Can't imagine doing that would create any issues... or can it?

    If say I'm using a Lehner ... they are all D-Wind correct, So they would benefit most from a parallel/series cap setup compared to a typical parrallel setup for y winds?

    Do you think it would benefit to have a cap bank that has the best of both worlds-- as in... a row of larger caps in parallel for more capacitance and row(s) of parallel/series for quicker recharge / refresh?

    Best to use ZL rubycon's over ZLH?

    Thanks for your help!
    Last edited by dmitry100; 11-12-2015 at 10:57 PM.

  23. #323
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    Hi
    → Providing your wiring is a good conductor, cap baks can be anywhere betweenb nbbattery abnd esc .. if substandard..closer to esc is better
    → Lehner are as per your order.. D or Y... or as you configure the 6 ports out rear their motors ..
    → always have each capacitor 'set' with equal value acting across feed lines ( incoming red+black) or the weaker set will suffer and fail.. in moments, not minutes or hours ...
    → buy the best available to your budget / availability ..

    still not receiving email notifications of messages .. checked all the junk filters and OSE settings etc.
    sorry for delay
    W
    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  24. #324
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    Thanks for the reply... much appreciated!

    What email provider are you using?

  25. #325
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    < hidden >@chariot.net.au which is alias forwarding to my service provider @tpg.com.au
    mailbox has @offshoreelectrics.com as allowed .. recently no incoming
    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  26. #326
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    Have you checked your chariot email box settings to make sure you have whitelisted it there and that its not catching the spam filter?

    I would look there first...

    Seeing how these kinds of email "templates" of the forum are very commonly used-- it could have easily triggered a spam filter between those 2 email providers.

    In addition to @offshoreelectrics.com , make sure you have oseforum@gmail.com too. It's also possible that these emails can be triggering a different "phishing" filter because the emails that this forum sends it pretends that it is passing from the email "oseforum@gmail.com" but it is in reality sent via offshoreelectrics forum server directly.

  27. #327
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    Kind off topic... but is there any particular benefits ordering a Lehner in the 6 connector variant aside from being able to use it in star/triangle modes? Less resistance due to more contact between ESC phase leads?

  28. #328
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    The 6 pole option Lehner give you 2 different Kv ('Y'Kv x 1.72 = 'D'Kv) and Wye/Delta performance characteristics.
    2 options for the price of one.
    I think that's good value.
    Wayne Schutte PhdCSE BaSE BaEE. Australian, & damn proud of it YOUTUBE
    @ 36" H&M Maritmo twin1512/1800 6S1P 88mph @ 40" drag hydro#1 twin 5692 12S1P .....always for fun @

  29. #329
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    DrWayne, for the sake of saving space due to the size of ESC and if I'm using an external cap bank with plenty of caps in series/parallel -- would it be OK to remove all the caps on the ESC's PCB ? or should I maybe leave at least some...

  30. #330
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    does someone make cap banks on OSE that I can use for my P Limited and Q setups ?

    thanks
    .NAMBA20...Caterpillar UL-1, P-Spec OM29, P-Mono DF33, P-Spec JAE, Aussie 33" Hydro-LSH, Sprintcat CC2028 on 8s, PT SS45 Q Hydro, PS295 UL-1 power, OSE Brothers Outlaw QMono 4-sale, Rio 51z CC2028 on 8s

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