Cap banks - the pre-emptive answer

[olwarbirds]

Both will be "SAW" setups so go fast 100% ......I do prefer your way of powering twins..appreciate the easy to follow diagram too.

[drwayne]

Both will be "SAW" setups so go fast 100% ......I do prefer your way of powering twins..appreciate the easy to follow diagram too.

Always a pleasure to work for an appreciative audience, mate.

[olwarbirds]

I was curious about the diff ripple current ratings and what should I be looking for, this company has alot to choose from...

[olwarbirds]

this page Im sure has the 35v I need http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...=0&pageSize=25 here is the 63v page http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...=0&pageSize=25

[Fella1340]

Hi Doc,
I'm getting close to the point where it's time to start soldering. You have already given me some great advice, some hard numbers on how many caps and what uf would be appreciated. I have the 63 volt 470uf Rubicon capacitors and insulating boards for running series/parallel as earlier discussed. The setup is a 48" Fountain style mono, it's a full size scale type hull. It's not going to be the heavy pig as I had mentioned earlier but it's no lightweight either.
It's running a 5660 TP 820kv 6y motor and a swordfish 300 amp esc. This motor will be run for now as it seemed a good option a year ago and I will explore the power it has to offer. The lipos will be revoltrix. I will be running 4-6s 5000mah 70c batteries for a 2p configuration. I will be going easy on the launches most of the time in hopes of getting a long happy life from the esc. however I would like to hammer it on occasion though with hopes it will stay together, atleast that I have given the system the best chances of surviving some hard running. What would you recommend for a series parallel capacitor setup. I will be changing the esc mount to suit the capacitor requirements, not easy to do with all the pretty carbon fiber cloth and plate!!
If I end up swapping the 5660 out for a 5850 TP 900-1000kv what capacitor configuration would work best?
I know that eventually I will be pushing the hull to see what it can offer. This is one boat I plan on keeping forever so the advice will be taken as used with this in mind. Capacitors will use a board for stability but be directly soldered to the 8ga wire given that this is your preferred method.
Thank you for any help you can give,
Fella

[drwayne]

this page Im sure has the 35v I need http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...=0&pageSize=25 here is the 63v page http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...=0&pageSize=25

35V
http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...890-ND/3563723

63V
http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...478-ND/3134434

hope this helps.
W

[drwayne]

Hi Doc,
I'm getting close to the point where it's time to start soldering. You have already given me some great advice, some hard numbers on how many caps and what uf would be appreciated. I have the 63 volt 470uf Rubicon capacitors and insulating boards for running series/parallel as earlier discussed. The setup is a 48" Fountain style mono, it's a full size scale type hull. It's not going to be the heavy pig as I had mentioned earlier but it's no lightweight either.
It's running a 5660 TP 820kv 6y motor and a swordfish 300 amp esc. This motor will be run for now as it seemed a good option a year ago and I will explore the power it has to offer. The lipos will be revoltrix. I will be running 4-6s 5000mah 70c batteries for a 2p configuration. I will be going easy on the launches most of the time in hopes of getting a long happy life from the esc. however I would like to hammer it on occasion though with hopes it will stay together, atleast that I have given the system the best chances of surviving some hard running. What would you recommend for a series parallel capacitor setup. I will be changing the esc mount to suit the capacitor requirements, not easy to do with all the pretty carbon fiber cloth and plate!!
If I end up swapping the 5660 out for a 5850 TP 900-1000kv what capacitor configuration would work best?
I know that eventually I will be pushing the hull to see what it can offer. This is one boat I plan on keeping forever so the advice will be taken as used with this in mind. Capacitors will use a board for stability but be directly soldered to the 8ga wire given that this is your preferred method.
Thank you for any help you can give,
Fella

Hello
5660 Ive seen on 6 and 8 was a barrel of fun .. over propping will kill all that feeds it, so work your way up noting temps ( the SF300 if data has internal temp logged ..this is a more critical read than outer case of esc temp )

As you're running 2P with ( what appear to be ) good packs, the high end yield of amps shouldnt be a problem.
Instant launch demands Ive not heard reports for these packs, so lets build a capbank that caters the whole spektrum...
For the 5660 on 6S Id use 8x2 of the 35V470uf .. offering a total of 1880uf buffer.
Due the charge/discharge rate of this bank you MUST use a charge resistor... SF300 have a little one supplied, however I prefer a more robust approach ( diags below )

5850. this motor is a beast... if overloaded expect huge amp demands.
Ive a 5850/750 on 12S with SF300+ ( outer limit of V for this motor ) and am still trialing capbanks and settings .. Ive logged 500+ through this as spikes, and am head scratching for cap or software failure as the cause.
Am pensioning off the 45" draghydro for a more 'slimlined' model, so testing is on hold for a few months ...

Playhard with the 5660 for now ..the 5850 update is a little way off LOL


however, for the curious re 5850 , Ive trialed
12x2 of 63V470 .. fail .. -20% V dumps
8x2 63v1000 fail .. ditto
8x1 63V1000 LOL BOOM .. caps ruptured !

Im not so keen to offer advice where it's not been used/abused proven.
cheers !

Summer is starting 'down under' in Australia... so be patient if my replies are slow .. probably building, oating, or drinking :)

antizap-easy.JPG

[olwarbirds]

Thank you Sir, exactly the help I was needing. I was getting confused with so many options. Order has been placed...TKS... DJ

[Fella1340]

Thank-you for the honest upfront approach. I am dismayed to hear that you haven't had success with a cap bank to fit the needs. I did throw the hard launch thing in there hoping to put together something more robust than 98% of my driving requirements. It's the last 2%.... You did recommend a castle 2028 at one point, have the trials with your dragster changed your outlook?
The 5660 is 820kv and 6s may be used for the initial pack or two to make sure things are solid mechanically and electrically(8s will be run for the same checks). Once all systems are a go and data logging is running correctly it will a 10s boat from there on.
Propping will start small and baby steps will be taken each step of the way, I don't mind spending the better part of a season getting there. Getting the most the boat can offer each step of the way There's fun in that to, another veteran boater taught me that. Going hellbent to find the limits and maximum speed is not the objective (have another one here to do that:-) Starting out with a solid base for a reliable boat is. This will never be a 90mph mono but 50mph will not keep me interested in the boat other than rough water days. Working up to a 65-70mph speed would meet my expectations and I will putt the time needed to get there and change my setup if this motor isn't up to the task. Until I build my experience base with a larger/faster boat I only have others experience to draw from. The castle 50volt 880uf capacitor board I have in my hand that's much smaller than my thumb doesn't feel right for building that solid base:-? Based on what I have read the Rubicon 63v 470uf would be the cap to to build my bank from, please correct me if I'm wrong. If I have to do some experimenting with cap banks so be it.When I say experimenting I really mean guessing:-) I see these setups run successfully with no cap banks, the castle 820 uf:4-220uf in parallel, etti 63volt 5000uf:5-1000uf in parallel and all the way up to the 50volt rc boat bitz 12000uf (fightercat board):10-1200uf in parallel. I hope that was readable! The only one I don't have is the etti cap bank and if I was to pick one of the three, of course it's the etti!
To start the guessperiment (it should be a word) I am thinking 6x2 or 8x2 with the 63 volt 470uf would be a place a start. Any other wisdom you can share will be most welcome. The novel above should give you an idea of my approach or your asleep. Any experience you can offer wouldnt ever come back at you should a cap blow or even catch fire. It's just one component is a series of them being pounded and abused beyond there design limitations. I choose what to do with advice and recommendations I receive from others. You don't want me to put 2 of the rc boat bitz 15000uf cap banks in the boat, one for each positive and negative wire the esc has, do you;-) Yes, I bought two of them. Somewhere in all this there must be a place to start. Thanks for reading this much! It's the medication, really it is. Look at it from a harm reduction standpoint:-D

[fidelity101]

I have the TP 810KV 5660 motor attached to the Swordfish 300A+ with data logging. There is a 6" extension between the ESC and motor because I was unable to find any other place to install the massive ESC in my Aeromarine Conquest. I'm going to repeat this exact setup in my new Aeromarine Challenger Pro and I'm trying to understand the need for all of these special cap bank configurations. For both of my Swordfish 300A ESC's, I purchased/installed the pre-configured cap bank that Hifei offers which consists of two 63v Rubicon 470uf capacitors in parallel. The cap bank is "highly recommended" for anything over 10S and I'm running 10S so I figured it couldn't hurt. I have the startup type set to low (I think I'm going to change this to normal soon...I miss the quick acceleration) max amp draw is 158A which quickly drops to 125A+/-. The ESC doesn't have a way to detect ripple voltage but I'm probably not doing the system any favors by using these 5S 30C 6200mah battery packs in a 10S1P configuration.

I understand the basic need for capacitance in a system that's pulling extremely high amperage. I understand that having the perfect capacitor setup is ideal when you're pushing a 300A ESC to over 450A for short bursts. My question is, for the average joe like myself, is it really beneficial to go beyond the Hifei capacitor bank if you're not planning on pushing the 300A ESC more than say 200A? Ripple voltage kills ESC's quickly and castle provided that ripple voltage information to help us diagnose bad wiring, bad batteries, etc. Unfortunately Hifei didn't include this information in the ESC's so we're left wondering what it may be for our given setups.

Also, for your prop comparison. I'm running an Octura B&S 452 prop. I will eventually step into a 455 or even a 52mm 3 bladed prop if I have time before winter sets in.

[Fella1340]

Fidelity, it looks like we are running similar setups and looking for the same answer for our HV monos. Seems TP is onto the third generation of the 5660 motors. The first I bought was a 5660 820kv 6y with a 5692 can size. I bought another one the same but it came with the new 5682 can size, same specs. Now I see they are 5582's and the wind type and kv options are all different again. All in the last year or so. Crazy.
I'm not sure what I am reading as a response from Doc but it seems he doesn't want to recommend specific HV series/parallel cap bank setups until he has a proven model to work from. The options look to be - buy a factory cap bank or make your own with the improvements that Doc has listed. Using a multi purpose pc board (without the trace) and wiring caps directly to the positive and negative esc leads and using 63 volt 470uf caps, using 8 or ten of these for 3760 uf (8) and 4700uf (10). This would be comparable to the etti 63volt 5000uf (5x1000uf) cap bank with the advantage each one attached independently to your esc lead and doubling the number of capacitors. That's all I have got out of the above as an option and still playing it safe with the total uf being similar to what the factory options are.
I really like what Doc is doing here, as the technology continues to evolve and people continue to push components to the design envelope and beyond the need for this technology will become necessary imo. We may even be at that point now. I would like to try the series/parallel cap arrangements as the information provided here they seem a logical choice. 1/2 a parallel setups total uf but with 8 times faster charge/discharge seems the way to go. With factory HV cap banks ranging from 820uf to 5000uf, up to 15000uf for the rcboatbitz/fightercat 10 capacitor bank the required uf seems far ranging. With these choices a 1880uf cap bank that works 8 times faster than the above looks really good. Is there some negative characteristics of series/parallel setup that outweigh the faster response benefit?
Doc, i for one an interested in hearing more on the topic. Any reasons for the hv 5850 cap banks failure that's apparent? Have you run a standard parallel cap bank through the same tests. I wouldn't mind testing a series/parallel cap bank arragement out if I had something to use as base guidelines. Way to much rambling going on by myself. I'll stop now:)

[fidelity101]

My new boat arrived today so I had a chance to do a few test runs. TP 5660 810kv motor, Swordfish 300A ESC with Hifei cap bank, 10S 30C 6200mah batteries, CNC 55mm prop on both the Conquest 43" and the Challenger Pro 48".

Conquest - 3rd run of the day doing a few high speed runs with CNC 55mm prop.jpgChallenger Pro - 5th run of the day using a CNC 55mm prop.jpg

IMG_2560.jpgIMG_2558.jpgIMG_2555.jpg

I'm posting it here because I'm a bit confused by the performance given the nearly identical power setup. The Conquest is pulling down the amps while going slower...I'm guessing that's normal? Would a different capacitor bank do anything for me with this setup? Startup type is set to low on both...something I plan on changing soon as it's too slow.

[3-UP]

Quick question I have a T180A ESC and want to replace the small aux cap bank , I have the 35v1000 caps just need to know how many to use . Thanks for any help. 4075 1800 motor / Mean Machine 5s 10000mah

[drwayne]

Quick answer.... 4....

[drwayne]

My new boat arrived today so I had a chance to do a few test runs. TP 5660 810kv motor, Swordfish 300A ESC with Hifei cap bank, 10S 30C 6200mah batteries, CNC 55mm prop on both the Conquest 43" and the Challenger Pro 48".

Conquest - 3rd run of the day doing a few high speed runs with CNC 55mm prop.jpgChallenger Pro - 5th run of the day using a CNC 55mm prop.jpg

IMG_2560.jpgIMG_2558.jpgIMG_2555.jpg

I'm posting it here because I'm a bit confused by the performance given the nearly identical power setup. The Conquest is pulling down the amps while going slower...I'm guessing that's normal? Would a different capacitor bank do anything for me with this setup? Startup type is set to low on both...something I plan on changing soon as it's too slow.

Sorry for the delay..work work work sometimes gets me busy elsewhere. !

I see on the data log that voltage dropped to 34.6V.... 10S~42V .. so there's a large drop when under load.
The TP5660/810 is Y wind .. what timing do you run ?
I would start around 12→15(med), check temps, and work from there
and yes.. soft start is for softies ...

30c6200 is rated continuous at 180ish amps .. perhaps double that for a peak..
if the battery is reluctant to supply current freely, you would notice lower amp draws, and hotter batteries .. what temps did they return at?
However the wattage recorded is on the money for this motor when not pushed so hard .. .. maybe up prop ?
Ive seen 5660 1000Kv-ish with x455/2 on 8S and the thing was a riot !!!

cheers
W

[drwayne]

Thank-you for the honest upfront approach. I am dismayed to hear that you haven't had success with a cap bank to fit the needs. I did throw the hard launch thing in there hoping to put together something more robust than 98% of my driving requirements. It's the last 2%.... You did recommend a castle 2028 at one point, have the trials with your dragster changed your outlook?
The 5660 is 820kv and 6s may be used for the initial pack or two to make sure things are solid mechanically and electrically(8s will be run for the same checks). Once all systems are a go and data logging is running correctly it will a 10s boat from there on.
Propping will start small and baby steps will be taken each step of the way, I don't mind spending the better part of a season getting there. Getting the most the boat can offer each step of the way There's fun in that to, another veteran boater taught me that. Going hellbent to find the limits and maximum speed is not the objective (have another one here to do that:-) Starting out with a solid base for a reliable boat is. This will never be a 90mph mono but 50mph will not keep me interested in the boat other than rough water days. Working up to a 65-70mph speed would meet my expectations and I will putt the time needed to get there and change my setup if this motor isn't up to the task. Until I build my experience base with a larger/faster boat I only have others experience to draw from. The castle 50volt 880uf capacitor board I have in my hand that's much smaller than my thumb doesn't feel right for building that solid base:-? Based on what I have read the Rubicon 63v 470uf would be the cap to to build my bank from, please correct me if I'm wrong. If I have to do some experimenting with cap banks so be it.When I say experimenting I really mean guessing:-) I see these setups run successfully with no cap banks, the castle 820 uf:4-220uf in parallel, etti 63volt 5000uf:5-1000uf in parallel and all the way up to the 50volt rc boat bitz 12000uf (fightercat board):10-1200uf in parallel. I hope that was readable! The only one I don't have is the etti cap bank and if I was to pick one of the three, of course it's the etti!
To start the guessperiment (it should be a word) I am thinking 6x2 or 8x2 with the 63 volt 470uf would be a place a start. Any other wisdom you can share will be most welcome. The novel above should give you an idea of my approach or your asleep. Any experience you can offer wouldnt ever come back at you should a cap blow or even catch fire. It's just one component is a series of them being pounded and abused beyond there design limitations. I choose what to do with advice and recommendations I receive from others. You don't want me to put 2 of the rc boat bitz 15000uf cap banks in the boat, one for each positive and negative wire the esc has, do you;-) Yes, I bought two of them. Somewhere in all this there must be a place to start. Thanks for reading this much! It's the medication, really it is. Look at it from a harm reduction standpoint:-D

The FC/RCBB/TFL cap banks are designed where biggest was thought the best .. BLING.
Massive capacitance will certainly reduce ripple to near zero, but the overall response for surge/recharge is based solely on the battery's ability to keep up to the demands of the capbank.. a heay demand of power from the esc will see the bank discharged hard.. and if that demand remains high the bank will draw power from batteries for a recharge rather than feed that towards the esc ... and the esc will see a reduction in available power after the initial surge has been passed...
We want a capbank design that is optimized for flow to the esc ... not detrmined to keep itself charged with little care for the load.. lol
However 80% of electric boaters dont push their setups hard.. so whatever capbank ( or none ) will suffice for their needs.

The 3 or so of those massive banks Ive handled for others, Ive literally cut in half with a dremel .... allocated half to each side of an independent twin setup for eg ( eg where the twins have individual battery sources ) .
Anything >6000uf really is a waste of effort electrically.

Hope this clears the medication haze a little.....

[olwarbirds]

Wayne, some of my military electrical circuit training came back to me as I was building cap boards. I was wondering why we dont put in a fixed style inductor in our cap boards. Would it not then almost completely eleminate any ripple voltage ? DJ

[drwayne]

:) Please illuminate me with your thoughts.

[Fella1340]

Thanks again, i had to laugh at myself when I opened the box up and realized the actual size of the fc cap bank. That was quite awhile ago before i had found any sound reading on the subject. Perhaps they'll get cut down and used one day after i get through the the fifty 63 volt and fifty 35 volt bags of capacitors i have here! Keep us posted with any new updates on hv cap bank arrangements that will stand up to serious abuse, enjoy the warm weather. Snow is just around the corner here:-(

[3-UP]

Quick answer.... 4....

Thanks for helping out, would it be OK to solder the bigger caps into the factory t180 aux cap bank board?

[olwarbirds]

:) Please illuminate me with your thoughts.

It might darken them It has been a long time since my military electronic days, I will try. I know that in modern hitech setups charging and using multiple lithium ion and polymer batteries. They are using various single stage PFC converters. In these setups their using caps along with BV inductors to control ripple voltage and to keep the DC voltage at a more constant level IE: no voltage drop until the preset cutoff.

Our lipos start out 4.20v-4.25v per cell and drop in voltage rapidly. For me if I could keep the voltage constant on a "SAW" setup then I would have more consistent timed runs IE: one up one down the course, so its feasible. In heat racing I dont think there is enough stored amperage to support this with the current max battery mah rules.

How to use these BV inductors in my "SAW" setup is where I'm rather unsure about the placement. Can I add them in the capbank or would this have to be something actually added to the board on the ESC ? ... DJ

[drwayne]

Thanks for helping out, would it be OK to solder the bigger caps into the factory t180 aux cap bank board?

physically impossible.. std caps have 3/16→1/4 leg gap .. the little tackers much less .. dont bend pins to suit the boards .. start again new board and space correctly.

[drwayne]

It might darken them It has been a long time since my military electronic days, I will try. I know that in modern hitech setups charging and using multiple lithium ion and polymer batteries. They are using various single stage PFC converters. In these setups their using caps along with BV inductors to control ripple voltage and to keep the DC voltage at a more constant level IE: no voltage drop until the preset cutoff.

Our lipos start out 4.20v-4.25v per cell and drop in voltage rapidly. For me if I could keep the voltage constant on a "SAW" setup then I would have more consistent timed runs IE: one up one down the course, so its feasible. In heat racing I dont think there is enough stored amperage to support this with the current max battery mah rules.

How to use these BV inductors in my "SAW" setup is where I'm rather unsure about the placement. Can I add them in the capbank or would this have to be something actually added to the board on the ESC ? ... DJ

most inductors I placed into circuits were to limit (power) rail ripple ..they are made/wound to target specific harmonics.... dont truly offer a wide frequency coverage ..more a 'choke' effect on the circuit for the frequency they are wound.
eg in DC/AC inverters they could hold the input voltage stable for conversion to 120VAC60Hz through switching.
in rc ESC, also DC/AC inverters, where we have variable output frequency..the inductance would need rate change to benefit the circuit .... here we look into toroids with movable primary/secondary coils ..which is already in the too hard basket for this miniature work with such high draw.

[olwarbirds]

Wayne, ok now I do understand why we dont do this. It was a thought anyways. Yes the setups I was referring to are alot bigger than our rc units... I dont care what they say about you Aussies being upside down all the time, it must help blood flow through the brain. again tks for explaining why it wouldnt work and how it does work... DJ

[drwayne]

Wayne, ok now I do understand why we dont do this. It was a thought anyways. Yes the setups I was referring to are alot bigger than our rc units... I dont care what they say about you Aussies being upside down all the time, it must help blood flow through the brain. again tks for explaining why it wouldnt work and how it does work... J

It's all a matter of perspective, mate .. we are not upside down, you lot are.
You are not on top of the world, we are.
Contrary to popular belief the earth rotates west to east, orbits the sun in direct conflict of path as first determined by Galileo.
The Catholics were right to question his results.
The sooner you Northerners all accept that reality, the better we will all be.
regards
W


btw, if we were upside down, the backflush from our backsides would fill our heads with....

[ray schrauwen]

Top of the world to ya Wayne! lol...

I thought there was no top of the world and if there was it would be the rotating surface of the equator area but, how would I know what angle and or direction our universe is traveling in?? lol... I'm stupid.

[Fluid]

Top of the World Hotel - 3060 Eben Hopson Street, Barrow, Alaska 99723 Barrow, Alaska


http://travel.rbth.com/travel/2013/0...uth_pole_22777

[drwayne]

Top of the World Hotel - 3060 Eben Hopson Street, Barrow, Alaska 99723 Barrow, Alaska


http://travel.rbth.com/travel/2013/0...uth_pole_22777

Been Antartica for work. !
Douglas Mawson base.. all of 10 days turnaround before the ship returned for more vegetables and beer

There's a tourist mob here in Au who hire a 747 or 767 or something, and fly gawkers down and around the place for a ten hour total flight .. never touching down... easy way to spend $2k+ ....
A mate ( Jamie ) offered them full fare for a one way trip, intending to wing suit down to Mawsons.. but they seem uninterested his adventurous nature, or the media sensationalism it would bring topromote their flights.
lol

[kfxguy]

So......I'm wasting my time what what I've done? I have a t180, (3) 50v 1000uf caps on the esc (repacking the stock ones of 35v) and then 5 more additional ones of the same 50v 1000uf.... mainly hard saw passes but rolling into the throttle. Maybe ditch Two of the caps? (Setup is a neu 1524, 32" cat, 7s, 1860kv)

[drwayne]

So......I'm wasting my time what what I've done? I have a t180, (3) 50v 1000uf caps on the esc (repacking the stock ones of 35v) and then 5 more additional ones of the same 50v 1000uf.... mainly hard saw passes but rolling into the throttle. Maybe ditch Two of the caps? (Setup is a neu 1524, 32" cat, 7s, 1860kv)

The cap bank ADDS to the existing capacitance onboard an ESC.
Most ESC support around 1000uF total... +3 or 4x 1000uF caps =~ 5000uF ± 500uF

As you already have 3x1000uF onboard.. 3 more is a good total.
Capacitor and battery temps will identify if this is the sweet spot.
'5 second rule' ..if you can hold a finger on cap crest for 5 seconds without burn.. that's ok .. if burn !! .. need more.