Lipo sack scam alert

[DPeterson]

Just spent 4 hours trying to find a Fireproof Lipo Sack. Not that I want to use one, but I always try to keep an open mind. I cannot find one.

I am focused on Fireproof because this is what the Manufactures require and the organized racing associations keep referring to the manufactuers recomendations along with the fireproof requirement.

So I Googled Fireproof and got this:

FIRE RESISTANT - Fire resistant refers to a fabric or fiber that has been treated to discourage the spreading of flames.

FIREPROOF - Fireproof means that a fabric literally will not burn. To be labeled fireproof, the Federal Trade Commission requires that a fabric must be 100% fireproof. If the fiber or fabric has been treated to prevent flames from spreading, it must be labeled as fire resistant.

FLAMEPROOF - Flameproof is a synonym for fireproof.

FLAME RETARDANT FABRIC - A fabric that resists or retards the spreading of flames. A flame retardent fabric can be made by using fibers that are themselves flame retardent (inherently flame retardent) or by using special finishes on fabrics.


Tower Hobbies has "Heat Resistant" Lipo Sacks. The brands are identified as Electrify and GH Racing.
For both brands Tower Hobbies states in the "Notes From The Tech Department" to use the Heat Resistant Lipo Sack only on a non-flamable surface.

I checked other vendors etc and cannot find any Lipo Sacks that are Fireproof. And most vendors will not go as far as Tower and suggest any charging surface or procedure.

When I look up Heat Resistant I find things like: Description: This fabric is scorch-proof to 360 degrees. Perfect for creating hot pads, BBQ and cooking mitts, ironing board covers, costumes and crafts.

I am guessing this is why we can not find videos that show 4S and up lipos burning in a lipo sack. There is no way they can handle it.

What is really disappointing is that the vendors to our hobby are well aware of the dangers, but yet chose to market these Sack products well aware of their shortcomings.

Ah! - Cooking mitt!

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

Doug

[ozzie-crawl]

I think the words "fire proof" would be a loose term just like the use of "water proof"
With water proof i am sure there is different ratings rite up to a product being placed in boiling water for 90+ hours.
Same would hold true i would think with fire proof. depending on what material it is made from would put it in specific group that would then have classes depending on heat range. So one could have a fire proof rating but be limited to say 125 deg. It is fire proof as long as the temperature is no hotter than 125 deg. Others would have much higher ratings.
Technically i dont think anything is fire proof as it will burn/melt at a given temperature.
Fire blankets are just fiberglass cloth,so you could possibly have your own sacks made ?

[DPeterson]

Looked at Fireproof boxes and safes. They refer to fireproof as for example withstanding 1700 degrees for 2 hours and some say 1800 degrees for 1 hour etc. I assume the Federal Trade Commision has set guidelines as referenced above.

It is clear to me in my research into this matter that the rules "on the books" are to satisfy Organized RC Associations for Insurance purposes and really not for actual personal or property damage protection. Therefore I believe the key in doing so is to be clear and precise with the wording. You can be sure that the Insurance Company, the Lawyers and the Courts will be. So I don't believe you can use the word fireproof loosely.

The deeper I dig into this the more junk I find. It's like planting a tree in an old abandoned land fill.

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

[Basstronics]

I think Fire Resistant would be well enough.

It should give you time to notice the problem and move it to a safe location.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Looks like you are going to have to be the first to test your assumption that 4s or higher will not work in a sack. I look forward to seeing the video.........

[Doug Smock]

Hey Doug,
Happy Fourth of July.

I haven't been able to find the word Fireproof in the rules in either IMPBA or NAMBA. Nor have I seen it in LiPo manufactures instructions.

I have seen the word Nonflammable.
Definition of NONFLAMMABLE
: not flammable; specifically : not easily ignited and not burning rapidly if ignited.

non·flam·ma·ble (nn-flm-bl)
adj.
Not flammable, especially not readily ignited and not rapidly burned.

Can you post some links for us to your fireproof references.

Thanks Doug,
Keep up the good work!!
Smock

[ozzie-crawl]

Looked at Fireproof boxes and safes. They refer to fireproof as for example withstanding 1700 degrees for 2 hours and some say 1800 degrees for 1 hour etc. I assume the Federal Trade Commision has set guidelines as referenced above.

It is clear to me in my research into this matter that the rules "on the books" are to satisfy Organized RC Associations for Insurance purposes and really not for actual personal or property damage protection. Therefore I believe the key in doing so is to be clear and precise with the wording. You can be sure that the Insurance Company, the Lawyers and the Courts will be. So I don't believe you can use the word fireproof loosely.

The deeper I dig into this the more junk I find. It's like planting a tree in an old abandoned land fill.

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

All i was trying to point out is there is possibly no set definition for some thing to be fire proof. You could say a steel box is fire proof but at around 2600 deg it will melt.
You would need to find what classification a lipo sack would fall into and what legislation (if any) it falls into for each country,possibly each state could be different.

[DPeterson]

Cautions label on the back of each Hyperion pack: - Charge only on fireproof surfaces.

Cautions page in the Hyperion NET & DUO Series 3 Chargers - User Manual - point 6: - Charge only in a fire-resistant environment, non-flammable surfaces such as on concrete or brick.

There is wording in one of the associations that says: As a responsible user of high performance batteries you will adhere to any of the manufacturer recommendations dealing with handling, storage and charging. I would assume it wouldn't matter if this wording existed or not as a safety point in a written manual as I would assume it would be required anyway of any Insurance Company.

Steven - Send me some sacks.

Basstronics - A few years back a couple of us took a 22 rifle to a couple dozen old charged up lipos. A few packs just kind of farted. A few of them were quite scarry. Shot flames 8-10 feet in the air and lasted for at least 30 seconds to a minute. The scarry part was not so much the flame as it was the pressure behind it. We expected flame not the amount of pressure. I would highly recommend you do not run towards an exploding lipo in a sack but start heading in another direction.

Actually Steven don't send me any sacks - not worth my time as I can predict the results. I would like to see video results from the vendors and others that promote these sacks as a safe gaurd against personal injury or property damage while charging 4S cell and above. Don't tell me show me.

Ozzie - As far as I can tell the lipo sacks fall under the catagory "Heat Resistant". Something like good for around 360 degrees for short time. I am not a fire material engineer. I believe there is gentleman that has connections to fire material engineers that is currently looking into this subject.

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

[drwayne]

As a responsible user of high performance batteries you will adhere to any of the manufacturer recommendations dealing with

any or all ?

When my neighbor walks his dog, he carries a plastic bag to collect the steaming dog doodoos incase shi.t happens..
When I charge LiPo I put them into a sack, incase it too starts to swell and produce a steaming turd.. .easier to handle inside a 'safety bag' than if exposed stinking the atmosphere.

Ive not seen a lipo bag yet that caters for cable entrance with valid content containment.. always a corner lifted somewhere for the wires.
At a few bucks each, they're my disposable doodoo bag.

W

[Steven Vaccaro]

any or all ?

When my neighbor walks his dog, he carries a plastic bag to collect the steaming dog doodoos incase shi.t happens..
When I charge LiPo I put them into a sack, incase it too starts to swell and produce a steaming turd.. .easier to handle inside a 'safety bag' than if exposed stinking the atmosphere.

Ive not seen a lipo bag yet that caters for cable entrance with valid content containment.. always a corner lifted somewhere for the wires.
At a few bucks each, they're my disposable doodoo bag.

W

Well said. Something is better than nothing.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[ozzie-crawl]

I hope i did not come across as argumentative that was not my goal. Is there any laws in the U.S that cover the regulation of lipo sacks was all i was implying and if so do the sacks available fail this regulation ?

[Mike Caruso]

Hi Doug,
I am a beginner with LiPo's so this is just my thought and as always I could be all wet! Ha
Look for Asbestos from China green in color. It is safe to use and handle with bare hands. Just do not inhale fibers which stay in your lungs. Spraying the surface both sides will keep fibers intact. I have used Asbestos products in one configuration or another when switching engine gaskets over to alternatives for 10 years work at FEL-PRO. How to contain the magic smoke I do not have any ideas. Good ventilation in charging areas I guess would help if a problem occurs.
Regards,
MC

[keithbradley]

So...

Is there a market for "real" protective bags, even if they cost significantly more? I'm in the process of putting together a site and offering items like this (not lipos protection specificly, just items that you can't buy anywhere else).
If it's worth it I'll look into it.

[Mike Caruso]

Hi Keith,
Good idea!
Since all of us look for deals.....Watch yard / garage / flea markets sales for old steel Typewriter cases. Growing up as a Hot Rod Hooligan which looking back I was (still am) a RECYCLER. Glad that some things don't change.
MC

[DPeterson]

Ozzie - I didn't think you came across as argumentative at all. These have to be discussed whether some like it or not. If anyone comes across as argumentative it is me. For that I do appoligize.

When I get involved with these safety type topics, I get accused of disregarding safety. I do not disregard safety - I disregard rules that do not address safety.

The irony in all this is that I have almost 40 years in the food business. My experience, knowledge and current consulting is in food safety, process control, regulatory compliance, risk management and loss control. You want to experience safety get involved with a food manufacturing operation. We live it and breathe it.

Mike C. - Are you serious about the asbestos? :)

Keith - In my opinion there will be or should be a market for something that will provide a much higher level of safety than what is currently being done. And cost is not usually the main focus point - at least starting out.

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

Later - Doug

[Mike Caruso]

Hey Doug,

Mike C. - Are you serious about the asbestos? :)

Just throwing it out there to see if anyone had tried it. Aren't you glad I don't build machines for food? I 'll bet everyone is LOL. If we knew what you know about the food industry we would quit eating unless we prepared all food ourselves.

Funny I got off and looked at a small Fire Proof Safe I have and it has plastic inside so it would be no good for a fire on the inside. Crazy right! I will help by keeping my eyes open and asking around to see what else I can find on my en

All that said I think the first step #1 would be hard case LiPos Just like the car and truck guys mandate.

Great work Doug.

MC

[m4a1usr]

Looked at Fireproof boxes and safes. They refer to fireproof as for example withstanding 1700 degrees for 2 hours and some say 1800 degrees for 1 hour etc. I assume the Federal Trade Commision has set guidelines as referenced above.

It is clear to me in my research into this matter that the rules "on the books" are to satisfy Organized RC Associations for Insurance purposes and really not for actual personal or property damage protection. Therefore I believe the key in doing so is to be clear and precise with the wording. You can be sure that the Insurance Company, the Lawyers and the Courts will be. So I don't believe you can use the word fireproof loosely.

The deeper I dig into this the more junk I find. It's like planting a tree in an old abandoned land fill.

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

The fireproof rating was defined by a group of standards for protecting the contents of the container. And it was soley based on temperature for material combustion or a level of degradation over a reasonable time period based on known insurance standards that were researched and accepted to be the average accross a sampling population.

You guys dont care about the protection of the gizmo inside. You just want bystander protection or fire containment so it does not continue engulfing materials in close approximation. Heck, for what you guys are doing an old crock pot with a lid would do the job. Or even a dutch oven.

John

[T.S.Davis]

any or all ?

It' "any". That's right out of the book.

That's why you must charge Hyperian cells with Hyperian chargers to be insured by IMPBA. I mentioned that somewhere else.

Doug, your cracking me up with this. I see my question about how they define fireproof finally creeped into your frontal lobe.

Just dump all your Hyperian cells and find cells that have ZERO safety restrictions. Since the rule book allows the manufacturer to define the safety parrameters you'll be good at that point.

Unless of course......you actually DO care about safety. After having actually been affected by a large fire (not LiPo) I know that you do. Keep digging until you do figure out how to be truly safe and not just pretending.

[bigwaveohs]

Here's a guy who has at least given some thought to the problem...

http://www.rctech.net/forum/r-c-item...container.html

But after looking at some "demos', it looks like a simple cash box with a loose-fitting lid would contain the flames in the event of a fire...what do you guys think?

[jkr]

I think that a box with ceramic fibre insulation will be ideal.

[drwayne]

There is wording in one of the associations that says: As a responsible user of high performance batteries you will adhere to any of the manufacturer recommendations dealing with handling, storage and charging.

any or all ?

It' "any". That's right out of the book.

That's why you must charge Hyperian cells with Hyperian chargers to be insured by IMPBA. I mentioned that somewhere else.

Food for thought:
Would you like to eat 'any' of these cupcakes .. does not mean you get to eat 'all' of them .
Must obey 'any' of the manufacturer's usage requests.. does not mean you need obey them 'all'.
Semantics.
I noted the anomaly because it is poor grammatically... insurance assessors demand 'holeproof' SOP.

ps IP2865 international definition of fireproof.... 452'f/234'c (ignition of paper) for 15 minutes before content ignition.

regs
W

[Mike Caruso]

Here's a guy who has at least given some thought to the problem...

http://www.rctech.net/forum/r-c-item...container.html

But after looking at some "demos', it looks like a simple cash box with a loose-fitting lid would contain the flames in the event of a fire...what do you guys think?

Nice thanks now I can show my family so they understand the LiPo's are not to be taken lightly.
Mike Caruso

[DPeterson]

Yep - right now I am focused on metal parts boxes with hinged lids. The compartments for the most part will keep the lipos seperated. The hinged cover allows me to continually monitor them.

Anything but lipo sacks. You all have been terribly mislead. Most all lipo sacks are nothing more than cooking gloves sprayed with heat resistant silicon. Then alot of them are only good for 3S 3200 mah or below. They have been known to burn through, throw flames out the side and drip flammable fluids out and onto shop bench's and furniture. Further more once you bury your lipo in a sack, and can no longer monitor it, you have eliminated a key step in handling lipos safely.

I would also caution against just charging on a fireproof surface with no side protection.

Up to this point my charging protocal trumps all the others like a Royal Flush over a pair of Twos. Knowing you are handling a potential danger and maintaining visual control far outweighs hiding the danger and thinking you are safe. A key point in the Manufactruing Industry Safety and Loss Control training.

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

Don't discount the fact that there is something to be said for inspecting your packs after runs. That's nearly impossible to do when they are built into the boat.
And then there's this.http://www.plasticmaterials.net/msds...materials.html
D.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Doug P it seems you have it figured out. Now to get the organizations you race with to follow.

[morewattsnow]

What we need is a containment system that will allow the removal of a burning lipo to an area where it can burn out safely. Given the difficulty of extinguishing a lipo fire that is the best you're going to be able to do if a fire starts. I think an army surplus ammo box with a small hole made to allow the charging wire with a quick disconnect NOT RIGHT AT THE BOX would be best. And maybe an extended handle to protect you from the heat as you carry this thing outside.Mount a smoke detector above the charging setup. Flip the lid shut, clip it tight and charge the battery. If the detector goes off, carry it outside. The wire hole will vent the pressure (and some smoke but that can't be helped) as you go.

Also, having a plan is vital. Emergency reactions always work better if you have prepared for them. How are you going to pick this thing up, how are you going to carry it, where are you going with it? Don't ask yourself these questions when the fire starts, there's no time then. Ask yourself NOW. TRY it. See if it works.

These are ideas I just thought of. Not trying to establish myself as an expert. Any discussion welcome.



Since we're not all going to charge these things in our driveways we better figure out how to get them outside when the s--t hits the fan.

[DPeterson]

D. Smock

Don't discount the fact that there is something to be said for inspecting your packs after runs. That's nearly impossible to do when they are built into the boat.

Actually not impossible at all. I can see all sides but the very bottom. My cells are so secure there is very little to no movement at all. They are so secure I have to be extremely careful in removing the 2S packs as I fear flexing the anodes/cathodes layers. The 4S cells are lots more structurely sound. I have a 2P 4S set up that takes 10 minutes to remove and then 10 minutes to reinstall. It was built that way out of concern for maintaining the integrity of the lipo cell in a 60 mile per hour wipe-out. I am of course getting ready to re-do this in order to meet the Battery Manufactuers requirements. This change increases the risk of lipo fire but I understand the need to meet the manufactuers requirements for insurance and litigation purposes.

I am not sure what your posting of MSDS sheets is intended to indicate. All the lipo fires I have witnessed were all in the boat out on the water. Had nothing to due with charging. Maybe we could/should be spraying our fiberglass boats with Heat Resistant Silicon. :)

morewattsnow - good to see others reading and posting. It appears we are moving past the finger pointing, we got it right, just follow rules stage. Your statement about having a plan in the case of an incident is dead on. There should be one for the home environment and one for down at the pond or race. I think there are current discussions taking place. I am at a loss right now on what reactive procedures should entail. Most of my approach has always been proactive. Trying to remove a burning lipo really increases the risk of personal injury. Not sure I could buy into any procedure that incorporates removal. I think all you can really hope for is equipment or property damage control.

Disclaimer - I do not represent any organized racing association.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

Doug P it seems you have it figured out. Now to get the organizations you race with to follow.

What he said.
D.

[Jeff]

Guy's, after working in the construction industry for many years, there is a device that many of you may not be familiar with, especially if you live down south( http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...5-plumbing.htm) This device is used to haul hazardous wast away and the water storage tank makes it ideal to flood a lipo fire with water. The construction is porcelean so it is ideal for charging in the round portion because of the fireproof nature of the material, this will direct flames upward until the water flooding feature can be employed.

I am all about the helping.

thumbnailCAKAOAU7toilet.jpg

[LuckyDuc]

Guy's, after working in the construction industry for many years, there is a device that many of you may not be familiar with, especially if you live down south( http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...5-plumbing.htm) This device is used to haul hazardous wast away and the water storage tank makes it ideal to flood a lipo fire with water. The construction is porcelean so it is ideal for charging in the round portion because of the fireproof nature of the material, this will direct flames upward until the water flooding feature can be employed.

I am all about the helping.

thumbnailCAKAOAU7toilet.jpg