LiPo Sack Question

[DPeterson]

I just don't get where you all think this is an IMPBA discussion and that IMPBA rules the RC Boat racing world. IMPBA is a very small piece of my world. And I think it is going to get a lot smaller. There are an awful lot of IMPBA members all hung up on themselves it seems.

Done here. This went from something that could have been positive right down the crapper.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

On the contrary, this has been a very positive thread.
Thank you,
Doug

[Chris Harris]

Doug,
None of us made this just about IMPBA and hung up on ourselves, really?
You are the IMPBA District 4 FE Director are you not? Yet you say you are not going to follow the rules no matter what because we have it all wrong even though our
rules align with manufacture's and other orgs. recommendations.
It's the org you represent so YOU sir made it about IMPBA.


Chris

[Doug Smock]

I just don't get where you all think this is an IMPBA discussion and that IMPBA rules the RC Boat racing world.

Doug

charging in the boat.jpg

This makes it about the IMPBA.

And this made it about the IMPBA.

Doug

I am not the one having a hussy about charging Batteries in the boat. You are. And you have already alerted the IMPBA brass many times already. No need for me to do it again.

The rules can tell me to jump off a cliff too - guess what I won't do that either.

Ok, Mr. Peterson,who are you going to blame?
Later,
Doug S., AKA "Little sister".

[DPeterson]

You guys really crack me up. Big fish in a small pond kind of thing.

Again - my involvment in this thread - apologies to the original poster - was to have civil discussions about possible safer ways to charge and handle lipo's. I do not consider lipo sacks to be the safest method. In my opinion this moves the risk of possible "boat damage" to possible "personal injury".

Again - this is an open forum for all RC boaters. I had removed my signature so there was no reference to IMPBA or NAMBA affiliates. I have done my part to respect both IMPBA and NAMBA rules. In turn it would good if you could respect the OSE open forum and allow civil discussions to take place that are important to all RC Boaters.

I will contact Kevin Sheren today and have my name removed as D4 FE Director. Got it because nobody else wanted it anyway. This then should end your quest to continually target me when these types of discussions take place. These discussions will proceed. Another time and place.

Doug

[Ksheren]

Doug P,
I have done what you ask. I have removed your name as D4 FE Director. It is honorable that you stepped down. As you have NO regard for either organizations rules or your fellow racers. By not following the safety rules you put all of the other members (your friends) and
the land owner (the guy that lets you use his pond) at risk. Our Insurance is based on our rules (both organizations).

Please follow the safety rules at the races even if you don’t agree with them. They are there for a reason. I don’t think this is about either organizations it is about what is safe and right.

I don’t like to post on the forums as they always get out of hand.
On as side note I have been racing since 1980 running Nitro, Gas, and now Fast Electric I do not recall ever charging my receiver packs in the boat. I now use lipos in a lipo sack and in a metal ammo can both when charging.


Kevin Sheren
IMPBA President


bigwaveohs I am sorry your post got hijacked. keep boating and enjoy our hobby.

[DPeterson]

Hello Kevin
Thank you for removing me as an FE Director. Sorry to have made you post on a forum.

I am disappointed no one is understanding what the intention of my posts were. Thought I had better communication skills. I have no disregard for anyones rules and or intentions to be safe. I will however admit I am a little behind on updating my charging and handling procedures. While I do this I want my new procedures to be slam dunk and not half way like what is currently being promoted. I can't race much this year anyway so it is a good time for me to do research and then gear up. Real good time for me to cause trouble on the forums. :)

One thing is for sure my new gear and procedures will not include lipo sacks! Another thing is apparent and that is the current rules in both organizations are short in defining not only safe and proper handling procedures but also short in addressing the isssue in case a fire does appear.

Interesting read on the ROAR car racing rules. Lipos must be in a hard case to handle race durability. ROAR mandates the C rating that can be used and also mandates that each lipo must be in its own fire protective case for charging. No more than 1 lipo per charge case. Being ROAR is so large in membership etc why have we not utilized some of this valued resource?

I will continue to do research and start threads as I see fit. OH - And as far as nitro/gas guys charging in the boats I have not personally witnessed this so lets just call it hearsay.

[Jeff]

I wonder if charging in the porta-john would be good enough?

[Steven Vaccaro]

Does the Velcro burn so snaps are better?

"Just so you know.. we have found HUGE advantages to snaps over Velcro when it comes to lipo sacks."
Grim

Sorrry this thread was so taken off course. I see Grim answered your question. So I'm Glad!!

[Darin Jordan]

Interesting read on the ROAR car racing rules. Lipos must be in a hard case to handle race durability. ROAR mandates the C rating that can be used and also mandates that each lipo must be in its own fire protective case for charging. No more than 1 lipo per charge case. Being ROAR is so large in membership etc why have we not utilized some of this valued resource?

Seems that every time I bring up ROAR as a reference, the FE community in general sighs and arms for an attack.

One of the problems with enforcing the use of a hard case pack is our current mAh limits... You'll be hard pressed to find an RC Car hard-case pack these days that is exactly 5,000mAh... Most are 5100, 5200, 5400, etc... Same physical size, just more mAh (rating wise, anyhow)...

About the only way to get a 5,000mAh pack these days is to use the soft-sided Heli/Plane packs...

[Steven Vaccaro]

As for charging in boats. May I ask why this is a rule? In my mind charging in a boat is one of the safer places to charge. I've seen lipo sacks "funnel" flames sideways. Makes the surrounding items susceptible to also burning. In a boat the flames are directed upwards.

[bigwaveohs]

Sorrry this thread was so taken off course. I see Grim answered your question. So I'm Glad!!

Yes he did, and I think I will switch to the snaps as what he said makes sense based on his tests. I'm pretty careful handling the packs so as not to pull on the battery leads, and since I store my packs in a vented metal container inside a metal storage cabinet I'll continue to charge in the sacks.

JMHO,
Pete

[Doug Smock]

As for charging in boats. May I ask why this is a rule? In my mind charging in a boat is one of the safer places to charge. I've seen lipo sacks "funnel" flames sideways. Makes the surrounding items susceptible to also burning. In a boat the flames are directed upwards.

Steve in order to know that we'd have to talk to the guys that penned the rules. Remember who that was? There was lots of talk about them on Lou's forum.
Paul P. Randall, etc.etc.etc. If I'm not mistaken several of the posters here were involved with them. I also remember not everyone agreed with the authors on some aspects of the rules..
I don't remember ANYONE stepping up when the rules were out for a one year trail to change anything except for those two guys that went to work to save the S class and the record books. Remember the FE1 - FE4 thing?
I'm glad to see more people taking interest in straightening out what's left.
Also,
One thing we've learned this week having lost Miss Gieco is that a fiberglass boat is not a "fire proof vessel". Also some pretty bad stuff involved when you burn resins etc.
http://www.plasticmaterials.net/msds...materials.html
Doug

[Doug Smock]

Remember all of this guys????

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/fefor...earchid=379895

How about this?
http://impba.net/attachments/152_Dec07.pdf Edit (Page 9)

D.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I'm glad to see more people taking interest in straightening out what's left.
Also, One thing we've learned this week having lost Miss Gieco is that a fiberglass boat is not a "fire proof vessel". Also some pretty bad stuff involved when you burn resins etc.
http://www.plasticmaterials.net/msds...materials.html
Doug

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

[sanyijr]

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

Me too....

I do find in a bit puzzling that a simple understanding of why these rules are in place can't be sited...

I am not a IMPBA member, but I use common sense in my safety procedures. I am really a nobody in the FE body, but I have a home, kids and wife to keep safe (for now, but too many FE boats always puts that in peril) and that is more important than rules. And if "following rules" is the only reason for lipo sacks. Ouch. You are trusting a cheap POS chinease made glass fabric sack with cheap stitching made by some 10 year old to not burn you down? The intent here, as noble as can be, seems somewhat misguided. Look at the quality control that goes into a $300 RTR boat? Less goes into the lipo sacks i would assume...

I, for one, trust heavy duty ammo boxes only. I have put many rounds into a ammo box (as in actually shot at and into them) and they are for the most part bullet proof. My family had a handfull in a house that burned down in the Oakland Hills fire in the 1990s. They are VERY fire resisitant. When everything melted, these did not. They cost roughly the same, so I just don't see how any organization would support a lipo sack in the name of being safe when it is most definitely not. It is as falmable as the material next to it. See youtube and every single lipo fire demostrates that the flames blast out the folds actually concentrating the flames.

In my opinion, (and no disrespect to anyone, but it might be too late based on the above), but the lipo sack seems to be a weak attempt at being safe or at least setting the bar VERY low. I just get tired of people pushing them as the end all. But again , just my opinion.

[Doug Smock]

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

Your nose certainly does belong here.
I was just pointing out how we got here. It isn't some guy in a black cloak that has a IMPBA logo on it. It was (is)the membership.
And for the record, I am all for fixing, changing, modifying, anything that needs to be fixed, changed, or modified.
At the end of the day no matter what organization you belong to, we are all in this together.
D.

[sanyijr]

Kinda sounds like a hug moment...

[JIM MARCUM]

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

Steven, your nose is in the right place. You and this forum provide information about our FE sport that can't be found elsewhere.

Keep up the good work. JIM

[bigwaveohs]

The best bet might be a fire resistant Kevlar bag. Or maybe toss some of this stuff on the LiPo fire?

lipofire.jpg

[m4a1usr]

I have avoided making a comment about this subject until now but if clubs are worried about just the container to charge in at events why dont you guys use some simple and cheap? Lipo sacks are not really rated for the protection you guys are seeking. They are honestly just a decent transportation protection container but nothing more. Velcro/snaps. Doesnt matter, the sacks are thin fiberglass and would never pass any industry standard for being fire proof.

On this realization it should be accepted as some form of minium storage standard. Charging? Your just accepting some un quantified sack manufacturers hype. Even the videos being used to portray their effectivness is subjective. What you guys with a bit of vision should do is use something that already exsists in form and is more than rated to contain this realtively simple worry. A bit of research or even use commonly available containers. There are several that scream out immediately.

Clay or terra cotta containers, although they can be fragile, would be more than acceptable by any firemarshal. Ceramic plannting pots too. They come in many shapes, sizes. And are a bit more durable. The list goes on and on. Heck, a cheap crock pot has more than enough capability. You dont need to lock the container down with latches like a metal box, although something like a 5.56/7.62 or even 50cal box are very cheap and with a couple holes punched thru the side for the wires would allow for more than enough protection. Honestly what you need to worry about is a blazing piece of plastic, not a bomb ready to blast a nearby observer.

I guess what I'm saying is define the requirements, set a minimum set of standards, research products that will meet those and put them in place. If anyone/ club wants to talk about some known standards used by the government email me. No dont PM me. I worked POPs testing standards for years, if you dont know what that means just google it, I can provide you with some set standards and engineering guidance. What the organizations are attempting is commendable. Just dont make it complicated because it doesnt need to be.

John

[DPeterson]

Very reasonable post John.

Problem is there is no real desire from anyone to tackle this issue and do it thoroughly. When it begins to get discussed we get selective groups from various parts of the country thinking they got it right. Pretty easy to pick out 1 or 2 of the recommended or required charging cautions for your rules and disregard all the others. Then use that as your basis for calling someone out. Changes the entire focus to actually get safe charging talked about and moving forward. And after going through this review I would expect or hope real safety rules are being discussed.

My current safe charging protocal far exceeds all the safe charging protocals being promoted. My protocal meets more of the manufactures requirements than any of the others including what I consider to be the most important - "Monitor your packs during charging". This can only be done visually and with access to the cells. My protocal addresses the concerns with cell structure, durability and time for remedial action in the case of an incident.

But again - nobody cares. If it really mattered these threads would have more views and more input from just a few.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

Pretty easy to pick out 1 or 2 of the recommended or required charging cautions for your rules and disregard all the others. Then use that as your basis for calling someone out.

Doug

Moderator hat off.
Oh brother, good thing you have all of that cheese Mr. Peterson.

Send Chris Harris anything you have come up with that is positive. We have set aside some time at the SAWs in Huntsville at the end of the month (28, 29) to discuss LiPo safety with the Safety Director.
Shortly there after we will be making a recommendation to the board. Remember, safety rules don't have to go to the membership for a vote, that can be done at the board level.
Perhaps you can come join us. Bring a boat or two for the 1/4 mile, and at the end of the day I'll buy you a BEER.
Doug S.

[ozzie-crawl]

Not saying it is a bad thing as i use one myself,but metal boxes and electricity can cause problems. So i dont think a Ammo box is the best bet either.
One other thing on sealed boxes. Putting anything explosive in a sealed container has the potential of being for want of a better word a Bomb.

[ron1950]

i dont think u can take off a moderator hat can ya? told ya it was going to be rough to be a moderator

[Doug Smock]

Sure I can, I just did.

Driving on now!

Moderator hat back on
See ya at the pond guys!!

[Steven Vaccaro]

I don't think Doug ever has to take off the hat. Being a Mod on OSE is not like some other forums. The Mods here are active participants in the forum and hobby and should act and be treated as such. We are not just "police".