LiPo Sack Question

[bigwaveohs]

Does the Velcro burn so snaps are better?

"Just so you know.. we have found HUGE advantages to snaps over Velcro when it comes to lipo sacks."
Grim

[DPeterson]

Save your money - skip this lipo sack crap.

You guy's that are using lipo sacks - How are you monitoring your cells during charge? Are you continually opening the sack and putting your face close to the opening to visually monitor? That would be the only method I can think of unless the lipo sacks are see through. Man O man!

We need some well thought out safe lipo handling and charging procedures spelled out and soon.

So far here is where I am at: Leave the cells in the boat - the boat offers at a minumum a containment vessel to hold the fire suppresent powder, will hold water if you so chose to throw water in it, and will work well under a fire retardent blanket. Furthermore the cells are not designed for repetitive handling - why are guy's tugging away on them constantly - damaged cells are the problem cells. The boat (containment vessel) also offers a means for which to handle or remove the cells from the area that may effect other equipment or people.

All pit areas must be supplied with Fire extinguishers of the sufficient size and type, and or buckets of sand, and or fire retardent blankets, and or buckets of water for the brave ones.

Damaged cells for any reason must be removed from the area and contained in a fire proof vessel for disposal later.

All charger cables must be covered all the way to the tip with non-conductive material - no open charge cable ends allowed.

All charging will require balancing features and must be utilized.

No unattended charging. Not sure how this works at a race. We all have to pit for racers.

Fire away - no pun intended.

Doug

[bigwaveohs]

Interesting...the very first rule in the recent AMA Alert (http://www.towerhobbies.com/help/ama_lipo/index.html) regarding charging guidelines for LiPos says:

1. Store, and charge, in a fireproof container; never in your model.

And please, no railing on the messenger...I'm just posting what the AMA is recommending...

BTW, The only type of Fire Extinguisher that will work on LiPo Fires is the new Class D (Yellow) Extinguisher. The problem is they are vary expensive. They average around $400.00 each.

You can use an ABC class to keep the fire from spreading but they won't have any effect on the LiPo fire.

[DPeterson]

I am aware but remain in disagreement. IMO - this fire proof containment requirement comes for the manufacturer for liability reasons. It does not justify that this is the safest procedure.

AMA as well as other organizations contradict themselves. They suggest to charge in a fire proof container and then say you must also monitor the cells. I find it difficult to do both in a safe manner.

[LuckyDuc]

Most boat hulls are made of the same material as the lipo sacks. Fiberglass cloth. I don't see why charging the packs in the boat is any more dangerous than charging outside in a sack. It is easier to grab a boat with a burning lipo in it than a burning lipo sack(In the event that the fire needs to be moved)

I'll post a pic of a damaged lipo wire that resulted from the constant removal and insertion for charging purposes.

[Grimracer]

Doug,

Our chargers are fully capable of monitoring the pack/s. Why would one need to open the sack during charging?
Regardless of safety, I really don’t see any "REAL" reason to lose a boat to fire when it CAN be avoided.
We store, transfer, carry, use WAY more lipos then all of the members on OSE combined and a fire be it in the plane, heli, boat or whatever is never taken lightly.
Besides the bad things that lipos are capable of come as no surprise when we are “using them” its when we are not using them that “things” come as a surprise.

Everybody.. just use your head and be safe!

Grim

[bigwaveohs]

My boat costs a lot more than my LiPo sack...and all I really wanted to know was why Grim preferred snaps to Velcro.

[LuckyDuc]

My boat costs a lot more than my LiPo sack...

The point that Doug is trying to make with charging in the boat is that the lipos get damaged as a result of constantly taking them in and out of the boat to charge. I have to pull on the leads in some of my hulls to remove the packs. This damages the pack over time.

[DPeterson]

My charger doesn't detect lipo temperature, lipo puffing or a potential wire short. Time for an updated charger. :)

[Doug Smock]

FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURES RECOMMENDATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll leave the "charging in the boat" alone, FOR NOW.

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

Does anyone know what the AMA's requirement is based on? Doug's point is valid too. Isn't it when we assume all our equipment is working flawlessly that accidents happen? If your charger wigs out and your cells are inside a fire "proof" container you don't know they've gone all blood sausage until they burst.

I have to make a special tool to get the cells out of some of my boats. Think shoe horn. It's a nightmare. It will wreck the cells if I do it multiple times. Basically I'm scraping a flat edge across the bottom surface of the cells. Not all my boats are like that though. If the cells come out without too much trouble I pull them.

I understand not wanting to lose a boat. Maybe the AMA figures you would be charging inside a plane with a 7' wing span and you can't relocate it easily. Boats are a little different IMO.

If taking the cells out of my boat in my opinion (who better I built it) is going to damage my cells I can't see following the recommendation. Damaged cells because I followed the recommended practice?

The bag is for containment. They're not a waist of time. Just not sure they're THE answer like some think they are. I wonder how they hold up to a 10s pack. I like that fire blanket idea. Just in case sort of thing. Remove a burn (somehow?) and toss the blanket over it.

Mike, what do you think made the snaps better? Think I missed it. Stay closed better?

Doug, I need your email address. PM or whatever.

[DPeterson]

Very sorry for highjack bigwaveohs.

I have a back ground in risk management and loss control and am really struggling with so called safety rules that are a little more than a feel good procedure.

I hope you get your original question answered and maybe on the side we can hash out some safe procedures that are actually intended for their purpose.

Terry - I PM'd my e-mail to you.

Doug

[Grimracer]

we did a bunch of testing.. i wish I could find the videos..

Anyway.. with snaps one has a tendency to lay the bag with the snaps up. when and if a fire happens the flames shoot out over the top of the bag and not the sides (like a Velcro one).

We tested this with a large cardboard section under the bag.. when using a velcro sack the cardboard started on fire.. with snaps it did not..

We also found that the snaps did not lit go even in high heat or under large pressures. I have seen a 4S 4200 go up and the pressure of/from the fire is DAM SCARY! (like a blow torch).. nukes whatevers in the flames path.

We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing.. We quick closed the ammo box it was in and it sealed the box so hard (vacuum) we could not get it back open..

Anyway.. I will state again.. use your head and just be safe..

BTY.. I have a buddy that put chimney liners on their side and against a block wall in his basement.. Based on what I have seen this is about as good a system as you can get for "in house" charging and storage.


Grim

[Doug Smock]

Sorry for the hijack also.
Lots of good reading here so you guys know what you'll be exposing your friends and family to when your boats burn.
http://www.plasticmaterials.net/msds...materials.html

As if the burning LiPos aren't bad enough!
So much for feel good.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

we did a bunch of testing.. i wish I could find the videos..

Anyway.. with snaps one has a tendency to lay the bag with the snaps up. when and if a fire happens the flames shoot out over the top of the bag and not the sides (like a Velcro one).

We tested this with a large cardboard section under the bag.. when using a velcro sack the cardboard started on fire.. with snaps it did not..

We also found that the snaps did not lit go even in high heat or under large pressures. I have seen a 4S 4200 go up and the pressure of/from the fire is DAM SCARY! (like a blow torch).. nukes whatevers in the flames path.

We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing.. We quick closed the ammo box it was in and it sealed the box so hard (vacuum) we could not get it back open..

Anyway.. I will state again.. use your head and just be safe..

BTY.. I have a buddy that put chimney liners on their side and against a block wall in his basement.. Based on what I have seen this is about as good a system as you can get for "in house" charging and storage.


Grim

Mike,
Post us up a MSDS sheet on your LiPo sack please sir.
Have a great weekend fellas!
Thanks,
Doug

[DPeterson]

Maybe if we put the lipo sack into another larger lipo sack and then into another larger lipo sack yet and then into maybe a very larger metal container we will finally have control of the flames and the pressure.

Grim wrote;
We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing..

There's a project for ya Doug S. 100's of nitro and gas racers charging their lipo receiver packs in their boats. All the while in the presence of other flammable fluids.

You have a great Weekend also.

Doug

[Grimracer]

Doug,

Im not IN ANY WAY imposing that people MUST use a safe charge container.. Just providing what we have proof of.

Doug S.. will do when I get the chance

Again.. just use your head and be safe.

BTY.. I store my Lipos in my trailer. Not in the house. If they do the nasty its in my large safe storage container!

Grim

[bigwaveohs]

we did a bunch of testing.. i wish I could find the videos..

Anyway.. with snaps one has a tendency to lay the bag with the snaps up. when and if a fire happens the flames shoot out over the top of the bag and not the sides (like a Velcro one).

We tested this with a large cardboard section under the bag.. when using a velcro sack the cardboard started on fire.. with snaps it did not..

We also found that the snaps did not lit go even in high heat or under large pressures. I have seen a 4S 4200 go up and the pressure of/from the fire is DAM SCARY! (like a blow torch).. nukes whatevers in the flames path.

We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing.. We quick closed the ammo box it was in and it sealed the box so hard (vacuum) we could not get it back open..

Anyway.. I will state again.. use your head and just be safe..

BTY.. I have a buddy that put chimney liners on their side and against a block wall in his basement.. Based on what I have seen this is about as good a system as you can get for "in house" charging and storage.


Grim

Thank you Grim....

[JIM MARCUM]

Great discussion and information here. So..........................

Is there a MSDS sheet on any major brand LIPO?

Is there info available on the toxicity of inhailing that nasty LIPO smoke?

Is there info available on how hazardous the liquid residue and other reminants are?

And, what is the correct way to dispose of a fried LIPO corpse?

JIM

[Doug Smock]

There's a project for ya Doug S. 100's of nitro and gas racers charging their lipo receiver packs in their boats. All the while in the presence of other flammable fluids.

You have a great Weekend also.

Doug

Doug I run a business, have a family, a home, hold two positions on the BOD, and work as hard as anyone at the local level. I think I'm doing my fair share for model boating. If you have an issue with the Gas and Nitro guys charging their RX batteries in their boats, there is a procedure you can follow to bring it before the BOD.

All of these folks can guide you.

National Large Scale Gas Director
Chris Rupley
D2@imbpa.net

National Nitro Director
Don Ferrette
D12@impba.net

National Safety Director
Bill Zuber
bzubee@gmail.com

District 4 Director
Paul Bychowski
847-593-7769
D4@impba.net


Thank you sir,
Doug S.

[DPeterson]

Doug

I am not the one having a hussy about charging Batteries in the boat. You are. And you have already alerted the IMPBA brass many times already. No need for me to do it again.

The rules can tell me to jump off a cliff too - guess what I won't do that either.

[Doug Smock]

Doug

I am not the one having a hussy about charging Batteries in the boat. You are. And you have already alerted the IMPBA brass many times already. No need for me to do it again.

The rules can tell me to jump off a cliff too - guess what I won't do that either.

This is the last time I'm going to tell you this Mr. Peterson. My first attempt was to deal with you personally. It's my job as a board member, just as it is yours as a District FE Director.
Your arrogance sent me down the other path, and has me on my current path. Congratulations!!!!

It is really very simple.
If you are going to participate in IMPBA events you are required to follow the rules. You don't have the choice to only follow the rules that suit YOU! It's not an option!
Nor do you have the right to put the IMPBA and it's membership at risk because you choose not to follow the rules. It's as simple as that, the site looses it's insurance if the rules aren't followed. Don't believe me? Ask one of the guys on the list above.

Like I said above. If you don't like the rules (or the lack there of) follow the procedure to try to get them changed, added, whatever.
If you don't like the rules, and you wish not to follow them, do the IMPBA and it's membership a favor and don't participate in IMPBA sanctioned events.

Don't bother with a reply, I am again, busy with the IMPBA brass. There is a fly in the ointment.

All done here fellas, see ya at the pond.(after the race) lol
Be safe while handling your batteries!
Doug S.

[detox]

I am impressed. Doug, Are you drinking.


...

[DPeterson]

Here is some friendly advice Doug, believe it or not. If you and the Brass are going to go around and promote the extra handling of these lipos so they can be shoved into a lipo bag (that really does not contain the flames anyway) and then ask members to continually monitor the charging ( sticking your face into the front of the lipo bag ) - I would suggest you all get a $1,000,000.00 Umbrella Insurance Policy.

The IMPBA and NAMBA Insurance is all secondary. Your personal insurance comes into play first. $1,000,000.00 Umbrella is not that expensive.

But when the unsuspecting smuck that loses a hand or face pissing around with these lipo bags, look out!

OH - and calm down. This is just a healthy discussion.

[Doug Smock]

I'm not fired up Doug. I'm not in D4.LOL

As you may know, the membership decides what the rules are. The Board of Directors promote the organization and the rules that govern it.

The Lipo sack argument is weak at best IMO. I could say the same thing about your mono that has the cells strapped to the rails and a ESC on top of them. How can you see what condition they are in? Show me a manufacturer that says it's ok to store, transport, and charge LiPos in a model?

Regardless what WE think, the rules are the rules and must be followed until such a time they are changed.
There is no point in going back and forth with this. You know what to do if you want to attempt to change the rule.
Good night sir,
Doug S.

[Doug Smock]

I am impressed. Doug, Are you drinking.


...

LOL Keith, which Doug?
I rarely drink and when I do it's just a beer with some boat buds.
Don't do the cheese and whine thing either LOL
D.

[detox]

I only know of one Duhg. I mean Doug

[don ferrette]

There's a project for ya Doug S. 100's of nitro and gas racers charging their lipo receiver packs in their boats. All the while in the presence of other flammable fluids.

Really?

Hmmm, I've racing gas and nitro for a long time and in the last couple seasons FE as well and have yet to see a receiver pack start a fire. 100's charging LiPo RX packs?? The vast majority of gas and nitro racers making the switch from NiCad or NiMh (and MOST are still using the former two) are using LiFe packs for the RX's as the LiPo voltage is too high. And lastly unlike Lipos, the lithium iron phosphate packs are thermally and chemically stable giving dramatically far less risk. The IMPBA rules are clear in regard to charging high performance LiPo packs, one can start with Section J-3 line 5-
http://www.impba.net/attachments/132...ric%202012.pdf
Choosing to not follow them is by choice, just don't do it my district as anyone making that choice will be warned once and if it continues will find themselves going home early. We in D12 want everyone to have fun but put safety as a top shelf item, hopefully the majority of boaters out there feel the same way.

Have a nice day everyone.

[DPeterson]

Your late to the party Don. There's been some follow up e-mails on the subject.

The orginal subject here was on lipo sacks. Then I highjacked it and steered it towards to what I considered to be a dangerous procedure utilizing lipo sacks. Then some of you IMPBA boys get on here assuming this is an IMPBA attack. You all need to relax.

This is an open forum for all racing associations and the general boating community. Lets keep it that way please.

The reference to 100's of nitro and gas racers using lipo RX packs was an obvious exaggeration. I will say though that in the 12 years I have been RC boating and racing I have seen way more Nicads and Nimhs blow and burn than I have seen with lipo's.

Doug

[don ferrette]

Late to the party? Nah don't think so Doug, to me there's no such thing when it's a safety issue. You are correct that it's about lipo sacks and if one reads the IMPBA rules it clearly states charging batteries to be done on a non-flammable surface or in a fire containment vessel out of the boat, nowhere is there anything about sacks being required. So a racers has a choice of charging enclosed in something like a lipo sack or on a non flammable surface but the rules clearly state charging will be done OUT OF THE BOAT.

And I'm totally relaxed, the only one I see who got fired up is you because you got called out. Regardless, if you ever decide to journey south you're more than welcome but please don't bring that I'll do what I want approach regarding written safety rules to my neck of the woods, it just doesn't fly around here.

Sorry if you don't like that and don't take it personally it's just that I have a problem with anyone who openly chooses to disregard rules pertaining to safe practices in an open forum regardless of which organization it is. And since you're an IMPBA member to me it's all relevant to reference IMPBA rules in this "discussion".

The IMPBA rules are there for a reason but people are always free to write proposals to change them if they think they have a better idea, it's how we roll.

As you were folks......................