Winmax 50-100c Lipos vs Hyperion 45-90c . Battery testing Review.

[Drax21]

I didn't get to run the boat as it has rained all week here in the UK so the batts are at storage value again.....

I really want to run both the batteries on the same day, on some flat water, so I can then see which gives the greater power and thus the best speed. I'm confident it will be close!
I will post the results here when I have got the runs in.

[Drax21]

So I upped the prop to an M645. I had good speeds and low heat on the M445 so I went up 2 pitches. The amps went through the roof but proved a good test for the Winmax batteries.

WINMAX V2.jpg

The amps were so high that it melted the solder on my eagle tree system on both Negative wires and partly on one esc wire... then the boat cut out in the middle of the lake.
For me the batteries did not respond too well to the battering. Eagle tree measured 183 amps at it's highest but since it measures top of the graph the spikes could have been much higher. The system is rated at 150amps. The batteries were warm to the touch when I finally retrieved the boat 20 mins later. At 27 degrees so I estimate was nearer 34 degrees when the boat cut out. They also looked slightly puffed at first but are fine now upon cooling down.

The run was about 2:30 long and they came back in with measuring 15.43 Volts in each.

I won't be using this prop with this set-up again but at least it gave me a bit more info to share.

I will upload a vid of the run shortly. You will notice the water was like glass today so I was a bit annoyed when the fun was over only 2:30 in. Temperature outside was 25C .I had also charged up the Hyperions to run after but ended up taking them home to discharge on the I-charger. Stinger angle could of done with being adjusted to suit the water.

Let me know what you think.

[Drax21]

Here's the vid

[detox]

Lots of on and off hard throttle is very hard on any esc/battery/connector combo. Also running the lipos past their 70 percent capacity will make the best lipos swell. I have some swollen 3s 4200mah hyperion packs that I run in my Emaxx, but they still work fine. Test by trying to simulate a real heat race (1 or 2 mill laps followed by 5 EASY on the throttle fast continuous race laps)

[Drax21]

Lots of on and off hard throttle is very hard on any esc/battery/connector combo. Also running the lipos past their 70 percent capacity will make the best lipos swell. I have some swollen 3s 4200mah hyperion packs that I run in my Emaxx, but they still work fine. Test by trying to simulate a real heat race (1 or 2 mill laps followed by 5 EASY on the throttle fast continuous race laps)

Yeah I never run the lipos past 70% but I am guilty of the hard throttle. The extra connection of the eagle tree was the main problem. I reckon the connections would have been fine otherwise.

[ozzie-crawl]

I will have to ask a mate how he gets his eagle tree display up.
This was a screen shot taken a few years back of a 32" apparition cat.

[Drax21]

I will have to ask a mate how he gets his eagle tree display up.
This was a screen shot taken a few years back of a 32" apparition cat.

It looks like he had bought a few add on although I should be able to show most of that data. I will try later.

[Chrisg81983]

Tim I noticed when using the eagle tree especially when pushing it to it's limits I only run for a minuet or two max. Just to get some data This works fine for me I ran into the same problems that you just had when trying to run longer but now that I run in the 90 second range I recorded data well above it's specifications many times and never have any problems

[Drax21]

Tim I noticed when using the eagle tree especially when pushing it to it's limits I only run for a minuet or two max. Just to get some data This works fine for me I ran into the same problems that you just had when trying to run longer but now that I run in the 90 second range I recorded data well above it's specifications many times and never have any problems

Cool, thanks for the info Chris. I just soldered the wires back on the system so will just run it shortly next time. The motor and esc were about 27c when the boat finally floated back in so was probably about 37c when the run ended. Not sure if the prop was too much? The Winmax batts were definitely kicking out the power again.

[jcald2000]

This easy fix will solve that problem.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...-in-15-minutes

[Drax21]

This easy fix will solve that problem.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...-in-15-minutes

Yeah I saw that. It's a great idea. I think I commented on the thread Haven't done mine yet but will definitely be happening before I use it again.




I hope to be off to the lake shortly with both sets of batts again

[Krusher]

-Moved from the older thread to this one-

I found this thread by searching on Yahoo! for WinMax Lipo batteries and thought I'd add some FYI. I ordered my 3S packs on Wednesday and they arrived here today (Friday) from Leadershobby. They are 4200mAh, 50C batteries on sale from the Miami warehouse; China would have been much longer of course. Here's the voltages I have on the 4 packs. Meter=Amprobe AM-140-A. (It's a decent, accurate portable meter if you don't have lots of $ to spend on a Fluke).

1=3.8956, 3.9156, 3.9144
2=3.8964, 3.8846, 3.9043
3=3.9134, 3.9166, 3.9144
4=3.9038, 3.9137, 3.9054
Weight (avg)=357g

Since I use 6S total, I'll be pairing up 1+2 and 3+4 most likely.

I'll post a follow-up message in the future once I get connectors on them and a few runs in late next week. I'm going from old 30C 4000's to new 50C 4200's so it should work out well (I hope).

[Krusher]

One more thing.

To those who are using these batteries, where do you have your cutoff voltage set to? My ESC by default is 3.2V/cell, but I can go higher (and lower). There doesn't seem to be any information in the box or on the battery regarding that.

Thanks!

[Drax21]

So I ran both sets of batteries today but something went wrong. Run times were very short and I am unsure of the reason. The voltage dropped so fast in both sets of batteries that before my beeper could go off at 3.40 the cells hit 3.00. All of them! I will put up more detail shortly and some vids. Any ideas as to what the problem is? I was running the packs in parallel for about 8mins before ending on 3.4 V but now I am only getting about 4mins. I'm thinking Esc???

[Drax21]

They ran great as usual but run time was less. Around 6 mins total.
Top speed was 45.3MPH

The voltage dropped so fast that it was at 3.76 then 20 secs (actual time) of running later it was 2.97 per cell. My lipo protector is set at 3.4V, it went crazy beeping all of a sudden. The cells did not even puff/swell and they have gone back up to storage values no problem. Will have to sort out this voltage drop problem though.

Sorry for the short vid. I had another better one but deleted it by accident. I was meant to delete this one

[Drax21]

Power was great once again. I kept the throttle on full.
Top speed was 45.1MPH (nearly the same as Hyperion)

These batteries suffered an even higher voltage drop and only lasted just over 4mins (8400mah in 4mins at 50c) which shocked me.
Once again my lipo protector did go off but by that time the cells just like the Hyperions had dropped just below 3v.

I usually run these packs in parallel for about 8 mins and bring the cells back at 3.3V but something is up.

Both the packs swelled a little and were quite warm at 34c. (The esc and motor were both cool)
I have also been able to bring them up to storage value but in this unexpected circumstance they did not handle the extreme drop in voltage as good as the hyperions did.

[Chrisg81983]

Tim What is the complete setup motor esc prop and so on the more details the better we can help

[Krusher]

3.4V/cell seems reasonable; my surfing last night revealed that most with 50C+ batteries don't use the old 3.0 standard and some even use as high as 3.7V/cell at a reduced capacity of course. This makes sense as better cells have lower internal resistance and don't need to be discharged as deep.

Regarding your recent problems, are you charging them in pairs or individually? I'm curious if charged individually if they are still taking the same charge. Also are your individual cell resistances still the same?

I have my connectors soldered on now and should get my charger back late next week.

[Drax21]

Tim What is the complete setup motor esc prop and so on the more details the better we can help

Hi Chris, It's Exactly the same as when I started the thread

Castle Creation 1515 2200kv (Had about 25 runs never hot)
Seaking 180a ESC (LVC disabled due to malfunction) (Ran 10 times max)
Octura M445 Balanced and Sharpened

[Drax21]

3.4V/cell seems reasonable; my surfing last night revealed that most with 50C+ batteries don't use the old 3.0 standard and some even use as high as 3.7V/cell at a reduced capacity of course. This makes sense as better cells have lower internal resistance and don't need to be discharged as deep.

Regarding your recent problems, are you charging them in pairs or individually? I'm curious if charged individually if they are still taking the same charge. Also are your individual cell resistances still the same?

I have my connectors soldered on now and should get my charger back late next week.

I always charge them individually using a 206b Icharger. Will charge them up fully before next weekend and let you know if the balance correctly. The resistance in any of the cells has not risen according to my charger. The Winmax batteries remain extremely low in resistance compared to most other batteries.

[Krusher]

Well, nothing seems to be out of the ordinary as you describe it. But I have some thoughts on it.

I have a Cellpro 10S by the way, which has been superseded by the 10XP. It's on another forum where I read some people are stopping their batteries at 3.7V/cell. According to the guy who develops the tables for the Cellpro, 3.7V is 20%, +/- depending on your C rating.

The lower the internal resistance of the cell, the easier it is to reach 0% with a higher cutoff voltage. When that happens, the voltage falls off like a rock. That's what it seems like is happening to you.

i.e. in an ideal battery, there would be zero cell resistance. The battery would slowly discharge with zero heat generated, and when the cell hits 0%, the voltage would hit zero instantly.

Knowing this now, I would not discharge those Winmax lipo's below 3.6V if you can adjust your cutoff. I have some old lipos that puff every time. Their internal cell resistance isn't that great, and they have a low C rating. So I have to set my cutoff low because the voltage drop in the actual cells and 12 AWG output wiring is much higher.

Let me know if this makes sense or not...

My boat is a Supervee 27; heavily modified. :) I get 38MPH last time I checked it--getting a little unstable now.

Neu motor 1415/2Y (1100kV)
Seaking 120A ESC
Prather S225
6S LiPo

EDIT: I looked up the manual for my ESC and discovered that the highest voltage cutoff I can set is 3.4V/cell. It will be interesting to see what your experiments come up with.

[Drax21]

I think I have figured out the problem. The motor is drawing more amps than it was before. So it's become inefficient. I'm pretty sure of this as the wires running to the batteries are fine.

I say this because of the wires that join the esc to the motor have partly de-soldered and they haven't budged before in over 10 runs.
DSC_2514.jpgDSC_2515.jpgDSC_2516.jpgDSC_2517.jpg

What do you guys think?

[martin]

Did this problem stem from previously using the m645 prop, thats a big prop ecspecialy if you were on & off the throttle when you used the 645 previously.

[Drax21]

Did this problem stem from previously using the m645 prop, thats a big prop ecspecialy if you were on & off the throttle when you used the 645 previously.

I not sure really. The motor could of been fairly hot after last time but I am unsure. All I know is that the motor was touchable after it took 20mins to float back to me but could have reached temps of around 35c when the wires on thee eagletree de-soldered

[Krusher]

If you had good water flow the whole time, maybe you have a motor failure of some sort. For it to go from mildly warm to untouchable after a 20 minute cool down seems that way. It could also be the ESC is bad and that overheated the motor.

I looked up the melting point of solder, and if you used 63/37 solder you had to hit at least 182C and it's even higher for 60/40 solder.

By the way, if a motor gets too hot, the heat will permanently destroy the magnets which kills the motor. Your motor should have a 60% of list price rebuild cost (older motor) or a 50% of list price (newer motor). I know this because I had my 1415/1.5Y rebuilt for a 1415/2Y.

[Drax21]

If you had good water flow the whole time, maybe you have a motor failure of some sort. For it to go from mildly warm to untouchable after a 20 minute cool down seems that way. It could also be the ESC is bad and that overheated the motor.

I looked up the melting point of solder, and if you used 63/37 solder you had to hit at least 182C and it's even higher for 60/40 solder.

By the way, if a motor gets too hot, the heat will permanently destroy the magnets which kills the motor. Your motor should have a 60% of list price rebuild cost (older motor) or a 50% of list price (newer motor). I know this because I had my 1415/1.5Y rebuilt for a 1415/2Y.

Yeah water flow was good as I could see it pouring out the back. I am currently using Multicore silver solder (lead free). melting point is 217c!
Would it be cheaper to have it rebuilt or just buy another motor like a Leopard 4082 instead? I'm not even sure if the motor is dead really as the last vid on this thread shows when I brought it in and the motor was completely cool. The only time it may have got hot was 2 runs before the last when I ran the M645.

I have just re-soldered all the esc wires so I will run for a short time next weekend and see how it goes.

[Krusher]

If you're still getting the speed you expected then the motor is fine. My motor was involved with three separate problems (overheat, underwater, and an ESC fire) so I rebuilt it as a precaution. Well, that and to lower the Kv rating a bit.

Ya melting a 217C connection is pretty amazing. Once you get it soldered back up again you should be able to determine what is bad.

I was looking at those Leopard motors too last night just for curiosity sake. The 4082 is a 2kW motor, quite a bit more than your 1250W. It weighs more too; so before going that route someday I'd check your Eagle Tree results and see how many watts you're really using. Although I'd admit a huge motor does have a coolness factor lol.

[Drax21]

If you're still getting the speed you expected then the motor is fine. My motor was involved with three separate problems (overheat, underwater, and an ESC fire) so I rebuilt it as a precaution. Well, that and to lower the Kv rating a bit.

Ya melting a 217C connection is pretty amazing. Once you get it soldered back up again you should be able to determine what is bad.

I was looking at those Leopard motors too last night just for curiosity sake. The 4082 is a 2kW motor, quite a bit more than your 1250W. It weighs more too; so before going that route someday I'd check your Eagle Tree results and see how many watts you're really using. Although I'd admit a huge motor does have a coolness factor lol.

Yeah I was looking at my CC1515 earlier and I thought..."It looks a bit small" I will def have a look at my ET data.

[Chrisg81983]

Tim I got your pm do you have any eagle tree data you can post for us to see

[Drax21]

Tim I got your pm do you have any eagle tree data you can post for us to see

Not from the last runs as I left the ET system at home but I do have a graph of the Watts on the previous Winmax Lipo run

here Winmax Watts.jpg