Blueprinting UL-1 Motor Wires

[Doby]

Whtchya got Ray?...In the three years with you guys, I never heard a peep...

I like the Graupner props for general bashing around the ponds.

Lets all order some boats for London!

[bbill1]

We all run the same equipment in every FE class in Atl. The hulls vary in some classes but the motors, ESCs, and even props are the same for the most part.

We all agreed to keep it this way. It keeps the racing tight and the wallet in your back pocket where it belongs.
It works for us.
Doug

I think your just banging your head against a brick wall Doug. They can't see the forest for the trees. How can they get everyone to run the same hull/motor/esc/prop combo when you can't even get everyone to agree on a speedy.

In a collective, it's all about compromise. No one likes all the parts, but at least you can agree that it's the fairest solution of all.

You guys act like you want to have a 100% spec'd class but won't even accept a 50% spec'd class that has been suggested.

And please don't bring up the cost thing again cause if $30 makes the difference then maybe you shouldn't be running anyway. You can also get a cheaper 60 amp speedy as well. So both points are moot.

I just don't get it...

[Doug Smock]

I think your just banging your head against a brick wall Doug.

Bill I'm not really talking to the guys that are posting on this thread or the many threads like it on this and other forums. That ship has sailed.LOL
I'm talking to the guys that are reading the threads!!!!

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

The CD makes the call with items like this, typically when faced with a protest.

Come on Dave, I know you have a book. The CD does not make the call on a protest. He's one of a 3 person committee. Hopefully they can read and wont decide what was "meant" by the rules.

Chairmen also don't have the authority to interpret the rules.....even though you wrote them. Randy had a boat disqualified from 2500 miles away by a chairman that wasn't at the race and never saw the boat in person. Many moons ago. Wasn't even for a rule violation if I remember correctly. Something like "wasn't in the spirit of the class". Nutty. It was wrong then and there's still no provision for chair interpretations in the rule book.

I submitted that latest set and have no power over their meaning either. The words mean...........what the words mean. The 10th guys discovered a flaw in the wording for scale regarding the turn fins. They knew what they meant when they wrote it but it didn't make it to print. They didn't protest it with claims of "intent". They fixed it with words in the book. If I had known this would come up I would have fixed it with words before I sent it to D2 to make sure there were no doubts.

The wire covering on some of these motors is crap. What if the wire wrapping comes off the wires? Should I fix it? Have to run the motor with no shrink I suppose. Another scenario. Flimsy wires with great big giant connectors. Them things bounce all over the place if you don't secure them. Rubs through the shrink. bbbzshtt. I've lost motors two ways. Wire wrap right where the wire touchs the endbell wears out or I throw a magnet. That's it. Throwing magnets takes some serious overpropping BTW.

[MarkF]

Ok Here is my 2c. First off I dont think anybody should start a thread or recomend taking off the endbell of a speced motor. Taking the endbell of any speced motor in any racing form is never allowed.
I saw the way these things were shrinked using only one piece of shrink tubbing for all three wires. You can cut this shrink off with an exacto blade no problem.
Second, if your at a 2 lap or national event and you get beat by a guy who put new shrink on his motor leads then guess what? You didn't get beat because he put New Shrink Wrap on his Motor. You got beat because he drove better than you or he set his boat up better than you or he got lucky or so on and so on. Saying you can't put new shrink wrap on a motor because its not in the rule book is just ridiculous. I can't even believe this is even being quetioned.

Mark

[Doug Smock]

Good luck fellas..................

[siberianhusky]

"The motors shall be used as shipped from the manufacturer, with the
exception of creating a drive shaft flat spot, adding water cooling, and
allowing the motor to be connected to the ESC by any means."
So skip the bullets and solder the motor and esc wires together and use long heatshrink!
Can the length of heashrink over a connection be protested?
That wording is open to some creative interpretation, nothing in the rules states you can't open the motor...
It's up to the rule makers to decide if something like this is a performance improvement or preventative maintenance. Then it's up to the racers to find a new way to bend the new rules. Isn't that the way racin' has always worked?
You do have to admit from a racing standpoint these are a pretty loose set of rules for "spec racing". Take a look at some of the SCCA class rules!

[Doby]

Good luck fellas..................

Hey,,where did Aerosmith go???

[T.S.Davis]

All of the motors that come in the RTR offerings we are getting the motors from have water jackets from the manufacturer. One could argue that the rule contradicts itself. Why would we add watercooling to motors "manufactured" with it? The motors we buy are replacement motors. To comply with the "as shipped" stipulation we should be running only the jackets that come with RTR. A Kintec will have better flow. The AQ that comes with Motley is much much better than the original UL jacket.

I don't really feel this way. I'm only pointing out how ridiculous the notion is that we're all somehow exempt. We all try to find a little bit better way to keep our stuff running.

[Doby]

This whole tread discussion is Tony's fault...If he hadn't tried to be helpful then we wouldn't all be discussing this.....Way to go man.

[MarkF]

Poor Tony, try to do something helpfull and look what happens. While were on the subject, I like to oil my bearings but it doesn't say I can in the rules. Am I going to get disqualified if someone sees me oil my bearings before a heat and they protest me Mr. C D?
OK I'm done.

Mark

[1truckerdan]

Well....... It sounds like "congress in session"
The fact is that the " wire insulation mod" will NOT change the performance OUTPUT of the spec motor....all it is does is keep the boater from having an added cost for replacing a motor (and possibly an ESC rx or servo)for a "shorted out " motor wire.
I thought that this "spec" class was to make it more" affordable " for the masses that want to race.
Just my 2cents
Daniel

[CHIEFY_44]

I have to agree with mark last post, all tony was trying to do was to be helpful, save people some aggrevation and some $$, nevermind tony

[Doug Smock]

Guys don't make this harder than it is.
These motors are still teched by visual means, even for records right?
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...ce-May-28-2011
It seems to me, you just need to get the "inspectors" involved, and get a clear description of what a "Limited" motor "looks like". You don't have to call the description rules necessarily, call it anything.
Then you just need a few copys of the discription of the limited motors to give to future inspectors. Piece of cake fellas!!!!
FWIW Tony's example "looks" to me like a limited motor that has some additional heat shrink. I give it two

See ya at the pond!!!

[properchopper]

Mirriam-Webster defines FORUM as : " A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged"

We've certainly done this here, and I'm glad it goes on. Whatever conclusions can be drawn we walk away better informed and our "thing" gets better.

Personally, I agree with Mark. Skill and well balanced setups will trump wire shrink on the playing field. But still we must adhere to the rules and hope they are clear. While set in place with the best intentions and a trueness of heart, conflicts in interpretation and new situations arise which [I]may[I] require a second look. (The U.S. Constitution has many ammendments.)

To set the record straight (is there a pun here?), I "blueprint" my wires simply to prevent long-term degradation, NOT to allow my setups to be capable of more winning performance. I doubt that anyone else does this to go faster either.
The motor I did this to in the picture is Stephen's used motor which needed it to allow to be used for his spec rig without an inevitable shorting, not to allow for a more agressive setup.

To reiterate, my recent records were set with non-blueprinted wire motors ( do I really have to defend myself? I hope not). Actually, since there was no previous records to beat, I ran those classes (without any hyper-agressive setups) simply to fill up a blank spot on my wall and to allow the PNW guys to come down and have a good laugh at me while killing my times (all in good spirit of course).

So here's another confessional spice to liven up the Chili ( You know I Love Ya, Bro - couldn't resist) :

I HAVE occasionally run small fans blowing on my spec motors, especially for 4.5 min offshore setups. No mention of these in the rulz. Just so you know, my thusly equipped offshore rig was so underpropped last race in AZ to keep temps down that my finishes sucked. I once tried pushing the timing on a P-Ltd. Sport Hydro setup and employed a fan. Both the motor, SC, AND fan went to barbeque heaven on the mill. I'll say it again : the stock AQ speedy works just great with factory pre-set timing.

ATBE ( a new acronym? - "All Things Being Equal"), I'm concentrating on balancing my setups for performance and longivity and steering around the dead boats and turtles.

And that's it for now

Tony

[Doby]

I wonder if the color of the heatshrink helps?

I've heard blue is faster than red.

[properchopper]

I wonder if the color of the heatshrink helps?

I've heard blue is faster than red.

SHsssss... I thought we were going to keep that a secret !!

[DPeterson]

Well - I just cut the small black over-shrink off the motor wires from an old and very used UL1 motor. I could clearly see where the tight over-shrink was squeezing the 3 wires together during heat occurances, was eventually going to lead to shorting out the motor. I will now be removing the black over-shrink from the 3 wires on all my UL1 motors and putting a dab of silicon in this location to keep the 3 wires seperated and from rubbing on the can opening.

I was warned about this issue during my last race at Michigan but it didn't really sink in until this thread. Thanks to Tony and all the contributors for bringing this issue up. Our motors will now run longer with these simple preventative measures.

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

THRUST BEARINGS! Anybody got one?

Incidentally, when I needed to run a UL motor on a Hydra120 I contacted Grim to find out what the timing is on the stocker. I run one degree less because I'm not confident that the two manufacturers are identical. The AQ is metric. HAHAHA. Works okay.

[DPeterson]

Chille and D,Smock

Just kind of curious. Just what is your interest in this subject? You both are IMPBA members and not NAMBA members. IMPBA currently has no P-Limited rules on the books. You have no dog in this fight. The 2011 NAMBA Nats was in your back yard and neither of you attended. Please tell me you are not "popcorn posters"!

What we are discussing here are preventative measures to take to lengthen the life of the spec motors allowed in the NAMBA P-Limited classes. This seems to be consistent with the goal of the class - entry and affordable.

I am a member of both organizations and travel extensively to both venues to race. Therefore I consider myself to have a large dog in this fight.

Doug

[Chilli]

My only intent was to warn Tony that someone may question the legality of his mod in a trials event. That's all. Despite all the ridiculous comments about bullet connectors, heat shrink and cooling jackets, you won't find any opinion by me on in this thread because I am not a NAMBA member so it's not my place.

Tony stated he doesn't do the mods on his trials boats so the point is mute anyway.

I did find some useful comments on this thread that will be helpful when the IMPBA composes its own set of Spec ("limited" if Smock has his way) rules in the future.

Have a safe holiday weekend folks.

[DPeterson]

This whole Spec P-Limited thing baffles me. The P-Limted classes are an evolution of LSH and LSO. The only thing speced was the motor. Nobody gave a hoot about the esc, the connectors, the wires or the shrink wrap. Now it seems there are a hand full of guy's that think a lawyer should get involved and write up a 100 page document.

Fellas - go racing with your friends. It will be OK.

Doug

[bbill1]

Doug

I am a Namba as well as Impba member and therefore have a vested interest as well. But I don't see how calling out Smock has anything to do with the issue. All he did was merely point out the once you went to a 240 esc, you popped two wires on your motor. This was nothing more than noting that theoretically, the AQ motor can ask for more than it is capable of and a larger speedy will oblige until something gives. He supported the idea of shrinking the wires in his first post on the subject.

Actually, he entire question regarding shrink on the motor is moot because the connectors are allowed to be changed. At that point, shrink can obviously be applied regardless of the application being for heat racing or trials. Simply shrink the wires all the way down. There is no restriction in the rules regarding shrink at all, but surely you can shrink the new connectors.

Common sense is all that is required to come to that conclusion.

[Doug Smock]

Chille and D,Smock

Just kind of curious. Just what is your interest in this subject? You both are IMPBA members and not NAMBA members.
Doug

Mirriam-Webster defines FORUM as : " A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged"
Tony

Dang Doug you're still chewing on this?

Drive on sir, like you said, it's going to be ok!!
I do want to thank everyone for the friendly discussion, lots of good information here.
Have a great weekend!
D.

[Doug Smock]

Doug

I am a Namba as well as Impba member and therefore have a vested interest as well. But I don't see how calling out Smock has anything to do with the issue. All he did was merely point out the once you went to a 240 esc, you popped two wires on your motor.

Bill I don't recall mentioning the ESC thing at all in this thread, nor did I mention Mr.Peterson smoking his equipment. But since you brought it up, you would think that with his extensive travelling to races etc., those kind of mistakes would be a thing of the past. Obviously the timing thing is much easier for rookies.
Looking back I think all of my posts,(and Chilli's) were of a positive nature.
I think Doug must not lke the way we comb our hair.
Have a good one fellas!!!
Doug S.

[DPeterson]

bbill1, Hard to tell how much experience a guy has on this forum. I did not smoke 2 motors due to switching from a yge to a hydra. It was the advanced timing that smoked the motors. The esc feeds the motor what the motor asks for. Again - the UL1 motor does not like advanced timing. It was definetly a rookie mistake on my part and very stupid of me.

Doug, I didn't know you had hair. :) My anguish is not of a personal nature. It is with rules. Over the last 10 years I have rebuilt my race fleet 3-4 times chasing technology and the rules that followed. A couple of rules that I consider to have been major mistakes (2P and length limits) has takin us into the area of running mainly P-Limited classes. OK - Fine, lets play with weak, cheap and badly engineered Chinese equipment. OK - Fine, we have rules that are working. So anytime, rules or issues are being discussed that may effect my racing and or my race equipment I am going to get a little cranky. I will not be re-building a race fleet again.

Got 3 big race venues this month. See you there.

Doug

[bbill1]

bbill1, Hard to tell how much experience a guy has on this forum. I did not smoke 2 motors due to switching from a yge to a hydra. It was the advanced timing that smoked the motors. The esc feeds the motor what the motor asks for. Again - the UL1 motor does not like advanced timing. It was definetly a rookie mistake on my part and very stupid of me.

Doug

Never said you smoked two motors, I repeated that you stated you burnt two wires on a motor. The point is (which is kinda off topic) that if the AQ speedy was used instead of the Hydra 240, the timing issue would never have come up. Thus you would not have burnt the motor.

I consider the P-Spec tunnel class a jump off for nitro tunnel heads like myself. Considering that, the Namba rules of allowing any esc in P-Spec tunnel can potentially cause a person new to FE to burn up equipment due to the lack of knowledge. I'm kinda playing both sides of the fence here because although I use an AQ speedy, I do believe that people run a 120 speedy in the p-spec classes simply because they believe it gives them an edge. Personally, if you want to run a different esc go right ahead. Cause all I wanna do is race. Since I am a Namba and Impba member, It made more sense for me to use the AQ esc so I could run anywhere and be legal.

As far as experience, I have only been into the FE thing for about 8-10 months. Racing nitro boats, 6 years. But six years here in Fl. is like 10-15 anywhere else. You will not find a more densely packed group of world-class racers anywhere else on the planet than here in Fl. On any given one day race here, you could be stacked up against multiple us1, and world record holders.

And That could be the easy heat.

[DPeterson]

OK - good to know where your coming from Bill. Wish I had got to Florida for the 2011 Nats. Schedule did not work for me.

Here is my take on why new guy's will burn their equipment in order of cause. 1. Running their boat way too long. 2. Over-proping 3. Running the boat wet 4. Cooling system not working. 5. ESC timing. These are the causes I have seen the last few years for equipment burning. Sure - specing the esc may save number 5 a couple of times. How do we save number 1 through 4?

Later - Doug

[Doug Smock]

Doug, I didn't know you had hair. :) My anguish is not of a personal nature. It is with rules.

Doug

Oh yeah I still have hair.LOL
I understand Doug, no doubt about that.
One more oval race and two Time Trials left for me this year.
Good luck at the races!!
Smock
PS The answer for us on 1-4 had been education. Still zero failures to date.

[DPeterson]

Doug - We really do need to get together and race sometime. These thread discussions just don't cut it. :)

PS The answer for us on 1-4 had been education. Still zero failures to date.

Fair to say then that education also takes care of number 5.

Doug