Blueprinting UL-1 Motor Wires

[lohring]

"The motors shall be used as shipped from the manufacturer, with the
exception of creating a drive shaft flat spot, adding water cooling, and
allowing the motor to be connected to the ESC by any means."

That's from the latest version of the NAMBA electric rules. I would think "any means" allows changes to the insulation as well as the connectors.

Lohring Miller

[Doby]

Based on the latest "rule" book on NAMBA's web site....only brushed motors are allowed for P Spec classes (unless they have changes hidden somewhere on the web site, but as this is the latest version they have linked to, it must be right).... Everyone running brushless motors are breaking the rules!

They do make mention of brushless motors in the 1/10 scale section...

"Motor Specifications
(a) Power in this class shall be limited to a single HIMAX
HB3630-1500, BLACKJACK A3630-1500 or AQUACRAFT
36/56 (commonly referred to as SV27).
(b) No modifications may be made to the motor. Except for normal
wear, drive flats or keys, electrical connectors and water
cooling, it must be run as shipped from the manufacturer.
(c) Power Limits: 10.1 to 15 Volts nominal, any chemistry.
Maximum of 2 packs in parallel. Maximum total capacity shall....."

subsection b is interesting as it mentions "wear" but doesn't define what it is...can it be preventive, like the insulation on the wires?? Who knows..It makes sense that it would cover that as being OK.

[Doby]

IMPBA rule book says even less.


So brushless motors and the amount of "blueprinting" that can be done to them is obviously up to the individual clubs.

Now before anybody jumps on me about there being more "rules" elsewhere on the web pages ("Roostertails" etc..) for the two organizations...I am looking at the rule books that they both currently link to on their home pages...as this is where anyone starting out to get some basic information would obviously look at.

[T.S.Davis]

First of all "hidden"?
Can we please think before we post. For what possible purpose?

Second, there is/was no limited spec power parameters until they were passed 5-11-11. I think that was the date at least. Click on NEWS on the NAMBA website and it's there. I don't believe it's been incorporated into the base document. SOP for our hobby. IMPBA's rule book hasn't been updated since 1974 or some such lunacy. You can find their FE rules in a 2008 edition of the Roostertail. No P Spec if I remember correctly.

As for the insulation......it's not a addressed. I do have an opinion though. I think that it's chicken turds for anyone to object to it. Wish I had thought of it earlier

[Chilli]

I have added additional heat shrink tubing to my motor leads for 3 years now. I do this right after I solder new 5.5 bullet connectors on, and just cut the heat shrink long enough to cover the bullet and to extend into the end bell. It is quite easy to nick the OEM insulation and tear a hole in it. This is more of a general maintenance item IMHO. Worn spots can also develop quite easily on the insulation in out board applications too. I wouldn't worry too much about this violating the current rule set for P-Ltd in NAMBA.

Sean,

For club and district races, I wouldnt worry too much about it either. But if you take the time and effort to run record trials in these classes which Tony does, it makes a tremendous difference.

Dispite everyone's interpretation of the rules, there is only one person who's opinion means anything and thats the NAMBA FE Director.

[Doby]

First of all "hidden"?
Can we please think before we post. For what possible purpose?

Second, there is/was no limited spec power parameters until they were passed 5-11-11. I think that was the date at least. Click on NEWS on the NAMBA website and it's there. I don't believe it's been incorporated into the base document. SOP for our hobby. IMPBA's rule book hasn't been updated since 1974 or some such lunacy. You can find their FE rules in a 2008 edition of the Roostertail. No P Spec if I remember correctly.

As for the insulation......it's not a addressed. I do have an opinion though. I think that it's chicken turds for anyone to object to it. Wish I had thought of it earlier

Thanks Terry;

You just confirmed my point....these things aren't in the current rule books and if you don't know where to look for it, its not easily found.

[RandyatBBY]

If the guys are that up tight then we will have hand out motors and props, Other wise be cool. I will not stress over little bull s#@^. never more.

[Doug Smock]

[CHIEFY_44]

Like I said earlier spec classes I thought were to bring more people into our hobby cheaply as to run a full blown sport boat u fork out big $$ to build and even more to keep the thing going, I really think doing something like this should not be a problem all people are doing is preventing a burn out in turn saving money, not everyone can afford to carry 2 or 3 spare. If they want to be picky then yeah hand out motors/props could be the way to go but its going to be more work policing that choice, dont think officals will want the extra load.

[DPeterson]

I'll race ya Tony! You can put the shrink tube any where you would like. I find it hard to comprehend that shrink tube will give someone a performance advantage.

With that said, 2 races ago I lost a very good esc (yge) due to my cooling tube coming off and I ran the entire race with no cooling. Took out the esc and the motor. This esc and motor combo has race proven reliability for 3 years. My only esc back up was a Hydra 240. Put the Hydra in for the next race and burnt 2 motors right where the wires enter the end bell. Come to find out the timing was too far advanced on the Hydra for the UL1 motor. Finally put the timing down to normal and everything is fine. Anyway besides the motor wires shorting out, the windings also took a beating.

So to me replacing the shrink tube is going to be more of a feel good thing than a performance fix or a preventative measure. I just got 4 UL1 motors prepped for my spare parts box. Plugs only - no shrink. Keep your esc timing calm, keep your motors cool, watch your run times, run the right prop and have fun.

Doug

[egneg]

In IMPBA district 12 not just the motors but the esc's are spec'ed as well - so it would be motors, esc's, and props! I think this could easily be handled at the district level just as the current FE rules are.

Wait a minute, in the March 2010 Roostertails under district 12 reports the FE rules state that any esc can be used. Is there a newer version in print somewhere? I will have to check with the district 12 FE Director.

[properchopper]

I'll race ya Tony! You can put the shrink tube any where you would like. I find it hard to comprehend that shrink tube will give someone a performance advantage.

With that said, 2 races ago I lost a very good esc (yge) due to my cooling tube coming off and I ran the entire race with no cooling. Took out the esc and the motor. This esc and motor combo has race proven reliability for 3 years. My only esc back up was a Hydra 240. Put the Hydra in for the next race and burnt 2 motors right where the wires enter the end bell. Come to find out the timing was too far advanced on the Hydra for the UL1 motor. Finally put the timing down to normal and everything is fine. Anyway besides the motor wires shorting out, the windings also took a beating.

So to me replacing the shrink tube is going to be more of a feel good thing than a performance fix or a preventative measure. I just got 4 UL1 motors prepped for my spare parts box. Plugs only - no shrink. Keep your esc timing calm, keep your motors cool, watch your run times, run the right prop and have fun.

Doug

See Ya' in AZ, Bro !

[Doug Smock]

In IMPBA district 12 not just the motors but the esc's are spec'ed as well - so it would be motors, esc's, and props! I think this could easily be handled at the district level just as the current FE rules are.

Wait a minute, in the March 2010 Roostertails under district 12 reports the FE rules state that any esc can be used. Is there a newer version in print somewhere? I will have to check with the district 12 FE Director.

http://impba.net/index.php?option=co...catid=17&id=65
D.
PS LOL Mr.P.

[Chilli]

In IMPBA district 12 not just the motors but the esc's are spec'ed as well - so it would be motors, esc's, and props! I think this could easily be handled at the district level just as the current FE rules are.

Wait a minute, in the March 2010 Roostertails under district 12 reports the FE rules state that any esc can be used. Is there a newer version in print somewhere? I will have to check with the district 12 FE Director.

The rules posted in the Roostertails was my original proposal. Don posted it by accident instead of the final draft. No biggie. They were adjusted after the district meeting and the correct version is in the link Doug provided.

The prop "parity rule" issue has only been in play in the B/P Mono class where the P motors can be much more powerful than "B" nitro motors. This year we added a Open FE mono and Open FE hydro class. So anyone that does not want to run under the nitro parity rules or spec rules can run what they want.

If anyone wants to discuss this any further, we can start another thread.

[D. Newland]

...

Dispite everyone's interpretation of the rules, there is only one person who's opinion means anything and thats the NAMBA FE Director.

Not really. Randy has it right. The CD makes the call with items like this, typically when faced with a protest. However, I have been called from time to time to help figure stuff like this out, and since I wrote this particular section of the P-Ltd rule, I'm sure I'd get a phone call if this was called into question.

But I must say, please have some perspective with this. I just got back from Justin Hill's funeral and that guy had more perspective with this hobby than anyone I know.

The P-Ltd NAMBA Rules are for NAMBA sanctioned events and Lohring posted the wording above. They state that the motor must be run as shipped from the manufacturer, with exeptions for flat spot, water cooling and connecting it to the ESC.

As Dick Crowe once said, "stay out of the grey". You say you're doing this to make the motor more reliable. Your opponent says you're doing it to push the motor harder. Whether you like it or not, you are entering the grey, which means a potential protest.

You're either running the motor as shipped from the manfacturer...or you're not. It's that simple. Most of you don't know Justin Hill...but if you've read anything on the boards about him...what do you think he would do in this case?

And that is as specific as I'm going to get on this topic. If you want me to get more specific, get out to a NAMBA sanctioned race and get protested. You just may learn at that time where I stand on this...assuming the CD needs my help.

[bbill1]

I have been sitting back watching this thread go south all day. Here's my opinion, for what it's worth.

I see nothing wrong with shrinking the wires to protect them from failure. I see nothing in the rules that state that cheap/poor materials must be allowed to fail. Why say you can change the connectors then have a hard on about shrinking the wires? If I change the connectors does it say how long the shrink must be? Can I re-shrink at all? I thought this was supposed to help the 'newbie' get into the hobby without blowing a ton of cash. Now he has to watch his motor smoke cause someone griped about some shrink?

Get real.

Protest me for having shrink on my motor, I'll take my ball and go home and you'll never see me at your pond again. Do it to enough people and you will start to wonder why nobody show's for your races.

You want to get picky about the rules in Namba? Start calling foul about 'stock' O.S.'s in the stock tunnel class. That'll blow the hair back on a few people.

Oh, and by the way...

Not trying to start up the ESC deal again but, If you burned the wires after going to a hotter esc what does that tell ya? Maybe there IS something more to the story than just cost ya think?

Hmmm....

Toy frikkin' boats people.

/B

[egneg]

Thanks Guys! I was sure this had been addressed and I had read it but couldn't find it. I think this is the crux of the confusion (sounds good doesn't it) the rules are spread all over the place. You would think there would be a way to go back and delete older versions or at least to add an addendum stating that this set of rules was no longer valid and include a link to the latest revisions. I think it would be easy to have these rules added to the IMPBA district 12 website and kept up to date but when I go to the news section the latest news is from 2/27/2010.

[Chilli]

Okay guys, I'm going to try this one more time. Tony runs record trials where the rules are scrutinized more than heat racing. How serious? In the IMPBA, any internal combustion motor that breaks a record in a stock class gets tech'ed and returned to it's owner as a bag of parts in a zip lock bag. We also take a voltage reading of all FE boats after a record run to verify the boat is within the voltage parameters of the class it is entered in. The intention of my post is to warn Tony of the possibility of his modification being protested, deemed illegal at a trials event and all his efforts going to waste. That's all! Tony gets it so that's cool.

That being said, I can't imagine anyone having their chops busted for Tony's mod in a club or district race. So go run some boats and have fun!

Jeeesh.... I'm done with this thread.

Next time I'll just PM you Tony.

[DPeterson]

bbill1

Not trying to start up the ESC deal again but, If you burned the wires after going to a hotter esc what does that tell ya? Maybe there IS something more to the story than just cost ya think?

I assume this is in response to my post. First of all the Hydra 240 is not a "hotter" esc than a yge 120. My post intent was to explain that (1) when the motors are pushed past their limit it is not only the wires that lead to the windings that short out but the windings themselves suffer greatly. This IMO makes any shrink tube modification useless. (2) I have found repeatidly that the UL1 motors do not like advanced timing. This last occurance was stupid on my part as I did not know the timing on the back up Hydra that I used. It cost me 2 motors before my brain kicked in.

Like I said I will race anybody, anywhere and with shrink tube anywhere they want to put it. The P-Limited classes have been and will continue to be great for the sport. P-Limited classes for records will continue to create animosity among a small group of RC enthusiast. Good luck with that!

Staying away from the grey area - Doug

[bbill1]

I was actually pointing more to the fact that with adjustable timing etc... , that the newbie could get into more trouble than if he had a plug and play esc like the AQ. And the seasoned racer would try to use it to his advantage (whether that advantage is real or imaginary), bypassing the entire reason the class is called 'limited' in the first place.

[properchopper]

OK, I opened a "can of worms" here without thinking it through, so I'm eatin' worms for dinner tonight.

A few thoughts/responses :

#1 : All my P-Ltd records were set with just two motors. Neither of them were "modified". Three records were set with a brand new motor just installed the night before the race which was switched between boats. I did have 5.5's installed with just enough shrink to cover the bullets. The tunnel record was set with an older motor, un "shrink-modified" It burned the stator a few weeks later.

#2 : Upon current re-thinking, I believe the rule ( to paraphrase) "motors must be run as shipped from the manufacturer" denies the shrink-mod. I'll act accordingly.

#3 : I've been competing in spec from the very start. Lots of heats. I lunched two motors in all that time, one from a burnt stator and one from a cracked rotor, never from melted wire insulation.

#4 : I think the stock UL-1 SC is a great choice. I have tried pushing the timing with other SC's and it eats motors. ( see #3 above)

#4 : Spec racing, as it exists today is not exactly "entry level". Competitive boats are rarely the rtr's that would ease new blood into the racing game as was initially envisioned. Stock rtr classes or classes like the IROC Vac-U-Pickles can still offer this. There's been many SV-27 only races that were successfull. I'd buy a rtr immediately if there was a "one design class" and have more racing fun, which is what I'm all about.

#5 : Doug P has impeccably prepared boats and is a top driver. Therefore when I compete with him he must wear a blindfold.

Thanks to everyone here for sharing their thoughts. There's something that I've been working on that's sat in my kitchen now for ten days that needs to be mated with something in my garage so I'll see Ya' soon .

DSC02532.JPG

Tony/Properchopper

p.s. : The worms were rather tasty when served with flava beans and a mild Chianti.

[longballlumber]

#4 : Spec racing, as it exists today is not exactly "entry level". Competitive boats are rarely the rtr's that would ease new blood into the racing game as was initially envisioned. Stock rtr classes or classes like the IROC Vac-U-Pickles can still offer this. There's been many SV-27 only races that were successfull. I'd buy a rtr immediately if there was a "one design class" and have more racing fun, which is what I'm all about.

Tony/Properchopper

I would support this idea of spec/IROC racing type of mentality 100%!!!! Same hull, same motor, same controller, and same prop. Sign me up. I feel this will also teach new racers what makes a boat better/faster rather than throwing a new motor and increasing the voltage... Just my $.02

At any rate, this is a GREAT comment Tony!

Later,
Mike Ball

[G-UNIT]

Sorry I must be alittle off here on this but what is ment by blue printing, it just documenting what mods you did?
I thought blueprinting was actually drawing a blue print with demensions and specs ect ect...
please fill me in so I don't sound stupid when talking about this, THANKS.
G.

[properchopper]

Sorry I must be alittle off here on this but what is ment by blue printing, it just documenting what mods you did?
I thought blueprinting was actually drawing a blue print with demensions and specs ect ect...
please fill me in so I don't sound stupid when talking about this, THANKS.
G.

The term 'blueprinting" as used here is a colloquial term referring to, in the literal sense, adjusting/returning an item to it's intended design specifications often illustrated by a blueprint as you described. Mass produced items often stray from these specifications as machining/production tolerances change over time. My use of the term blueprinting is technically incorrect - my bad - I could have used a better word to describe what I did.

[G-UNIT]

I asked this question just alittle while ago but I don't see it now so i'll ask again.
What do you mean by blueprinting, I alway thought it was actually drawing a blueprint with demensinns ect..
or in the rc world is it just documenting mods.

[properchopper]

I would support this idea of spec/IROC racing type of mentality 100%!!!! Same hull, same motor, same controller, and same prop. Sign me up.

I feel this will also teach new racers what makes a boat better/faster rather than throwing a new motor and increasing the voltage... Just my $.02

At any rate, this is a GREAT comment Tony!

Later,
Mike Ball

Mike there's an ENORMOUS amount of wisdom in that one simple statement. Rather than joining the ZSP/WTS? club {ZoomSplashPlop/What'sThatSmell?}, learning the art of fine tuning a boat to go six laps on the 1/6 mile would definitely create much more all-around satisfaction with our "thing" in the long run. And as long as I'm on the soapbox, I'll say that the recent proliferation of decent (but mildly tuned) rtr's is a double edged sword : It certainly allows beginning boaters to painlessly avail themselves to the fray, but prevents in some way learning the skills in scratch building or rigging and tuning a bare hull. I guess it's all good. But heck yeah, I'd love to compete in a "stock rtr" class. There's certainly a good selection of these boats now being offered. Imagine six MC's, Stillettos, or Impulses battling it out on the course. Yum !!

[ray schrauwen]

I would support this idea of spec/IROC racing type of mentality 100%!!!! Same hull, same motor, same controller, and same prop. Sign me up. I feel this will also teach new racers what makes a boat better/faster rather than throwing a new motor and increasing the voltage... Just my $.02

At any rate, this is a GREAT comment Tony!

Later,
Mike Ball

I have been chomping at the bit to get IROC style racing up here in our club but, they whine, & whine...

[Doby]

Really??

[Doug Smock]

We all run the same equipment in every FE class in Atl. The hulls vary in some classes but the motors, ESCs, and even props are the same for the most part.

We all agreed to keep it this way. It keeps the racing tight and the wallet in your back pocket where it belongs.
It works for us.
Doug

[ray schrauwen]

Really??

Where have you been? I've been trying to run a class with spec'd props, motors etc forever! Everyone groaned, plastic props, UUUUGH!!

Graupner makes CARBON props that run very well on spec motors. You know, you use them all the time.

Maybe with some older blood out of the clubs here we can get such a class.

I have a boat ready for such a class.