"P" class which motor 2200kv 4082 or 1515?

[HTVboats]

I hate to duplicate here but I offended another inadvertantly hi-jacking his specific thread. On subject I am open to opinions and variations away from specifics as I have learned a lot in forums even as they get off specific topics. I also understand searches and though this is my second post here I have probably read 20-30 hours of information on motors, batteries and ESC's.
Ok Brian Buaas has already commented in the other post and hope he fills in more here as he has experience with said motors. By the way Brian my friend Mike Z says your the man when it comes to FE.
So I have a 4082 leopard 2200kv on 4S1P and it runs very well on a Shaman Tunnel. I think were in the 55+mph range with an M445 and a 200A Swordfish. The only thing I feel we could improve is if a Nue 15151Y is under rated for wattage and the Leopard may be over rated. Any opinions on the relationship to wattage VS. motor efficiency here? Is the latter going to be easier on an ESC with similar prop load?
What I am looking for here is saving 4 oz of weight which high up on an light outboard tunnel for me is critcal to cornering and overall handling. The 1521 Nue has similar weight and length as the Leopard 4082 and I am sure has more power potential just getting into a higher price range. Any other suggestions welcome as I hear the 1520 and 1717 discussed but not sure of KV ratings and weight of motors.
Right now we are looking for configurations that are a step up from the "P" spec or limited class. Open FE Tunnel is run at Charleston and there will be more in Florida competing in the STORM series at Brandon. Open FE Tunnel should bring out some good competition between "P" & "Q" setups being built. With existing hulls availiable I am not sure that the lighter "P" won't work as well as the heavier "Q". Thats what racing is all about and who does thier homework.
Mic Halbrehder

[bbill1]

I too would like to hear from the gurus regarding this. I will be building a P Tunnel for the STORM series here in Florida as well.

If the Leopard 4082 (2200kv) is ok for heat racing, or is the 15151y a better choice? I would gladly spend the extra 100 dollars if it is justified but would really like to know what makes the Neu that much better of a motor. Again, I don't have a problem getting a 15151y, But if a Leopard 4082 is just as good then why spend the extra money. Not looking for a SAW motor, just heat racing.

Hopefully those who have been in FE for awhile will chime in here.

[electric]

My only comment is I have two neu motors. I have a 1515 and 1521. I am constantly amazed at how cool they always run and how powerfull they are. Unfortunatly, I have not run a Leopard motor. All I can tell you is that the Neu motors are simply amazing compared to all the other motors I have used to date. The 15151y is in an Insane Hydro and I am running upper 50's with no heat issues whatsoever.

[raptor347]

So here's my take on motors. There can be huge differences in efficiency between very similar design motors. The old saying "the devil is in the details" certainly applies here. I started playing with brushless stuff back in the Aveox days and learned real fast that there were subtle changes in material specs that would result in huge efficiency gains. For instance, thinner laminates (more required=more $) used in the stator stack makes an improvement, lets not get into the different material options. Another is higher temperature coatings on the wire (harder to work with=more production time), it takes more heat to fail and short out, increasing reliability. You can find the same type details in bearings/shafts/magnets etc. What it comes down to is really good motors aren't cheap to build in small production numbers, you get what you pay for.

Now, all that being said, does everyone need a Neu? No. If you can get the performance you want with a motor that will make 75-80% of the power of a similar sized Neu, you have your answer. I tend to push equipment, not carelessly, I just have a pretty good feel for where the limits are. I have yet to cook a Neu. I've got a couple motors that have been run in both heat racing and SAWs since 2005.

For a true P tunnel, I'd put a 1515/1Y on it in a heartbeat. The other question is what prop does that Shaman like to run? If the handling is better with a 50mm prop, the 1521/1.5d (or CC/Neu 1518) might be a better option for you.

[HTVboats]

Thanks Brian that was the explanation I wanted. Between Bill myself and Ron D we will be running these motors back to back on the same hulls and put a watch on them. Most of the tunnels I have worked with for 45 nitro's including my own and the Shaman we stay in the 48mm diameter or less range. Jacking up motors and big diameters have not worked for my heat race setups. I have had some big speeds with 1914 and 2014 LeFluers. I have a 1916 from Ernie that even our best Nelsons wont turn consistantly. Down the road a 1521 or 1527 on one of Rons new Warheads might be a possibility. No worry about comming on pipe with an FE. For now a 1515 looks to be a possible light good handling "p" setup. Sounds like nitpicking but 4oz less that high on an outboard makes a difference in how fast we can corner.
Mic

[teach]

How are you mounting your motors to the lower units? Now I am not into tunnels (yet) but have seen some cut up lower legs so the motor will mount as low as possible. Might be another option for you folks.

[Make-a-Wake]

I may get criticized here, but i think the Leopard 4082 with its 40mm dia. and 82mm length will pack more punch than the 1515 at 40 x 68mm.

[raptor347]

If materials, design and construction were equal, you're right, the larger motor will make more power. Unfortunately the materials, design and construction aren't equal.

I opened the dead 4082 this evening, I'll keep running my CC/Neus.

[HTVboats]

Teach- I use the Hyperformane OB mounts which are 3/4 and 1 inch respectively 21 & 45 size lowers. You need room for the round shaft to square in which the height is needed. Kris Flynn has inset the couplers neatly into a modified lower with a shorter cable but that requires machine work plus a special cable. The Hyperformance is a bolt on and leaves the lower in tact to use again for nitro or FE. If you inset and lower a motor into the lower you also have to allow for a different angle of alignment which may bind or break a cable easier.

Make-a-wake. I am with you as I have a 4082 which is not defective and runs well. That said Brian's analysis is solid and I have a friend sending the 2200 Nue which will stay in my box and he'll get a check. I considered the 4074 leopard also as I feel it may have plenty of power and should be easier on a speed control.
That poses another issue. Not using over the top propellors would a 4082 draw considerable more amps than a 4074 both 2200Kv. With the same prop I would expect the 4082 to be a bit faster. Will the efficiency and quality of the Nue 1515 2200kv outperform both leopards?
One thing here is we are trying to find some setups that will work on a budget and encourage growth in a larger than "P" spec class for tunnels. I know a 1527 and a $400+ ESC will do the job but not be an entry point for the Nitro tunnel guys we are looking to convert. If there is a combo that mates a $100 controller (T-180,Swordfish 200) with a under $200 motor that will not instantly go up in smoke and perform with existing .45 tunnels the class will grow. I know lohring and some of the west coast tunnel guys are seeking the same FE alternative. 5S -6S with lower KV motors are working well and I feel the "P" will more than hold it's own in the mix.
Brian thanks again for you experience and any further opinion on possible amp draw vs quality will be welcome. In this hobby I have found you can always buy up in power but if you don't have setup and handling first your just going upside down quicker.
Mic

[LuckyDuc]

Are you only looking for 2200kv motors? Ive had really good results in the P class with 2000kv motors as well.

[Make-a-Wake]

If materials, design and construction were equal, you're right, the larger motor will make more power. Unfortunately the materials, design and construction aren't equal.

I opened the dead 4082 this evening, I'll keep running my CC/Neus.

I hear ya, i have several Neu's and they do run only warm. My 1515 puts my Elam over 50 mph and doesnt break a sweat. I do have a 4082 3y Leopard i just threw in my 45" Dumas, which has a bit of weight to it on 6s2p, and it moves it to 36 mph with no heat issues.......not hugely fast, but its a scaler with drivers and full interior.

[properchopper]

My "seat of the pants" unempirical observational take is that, across the board, Neu motors run cooler for a given setup. If battery power is converted to heat rather than rotational power, there's a loss in performance - its appears to be just that simple. I'm no EE, although my amp does go to eleven

[HTVboats]

Are you only looking for 2200kv motors? Ive had really good results in the P class with 2000kv motors as well.

By all means 1800-2300 will work on "P". Using 2200 more for a direct comparison. Anyone with info here also chime in. If your 2200 and whatever prop seems to be pushing the safe heat or over amping category would dropping to 2000 make a significant difference? I know you may loose a couple mph but if it put a good handling prop to use and or extended the run time it might be worth it. Using different but similar KV ratings to me looks like kind of a fine tunning issue like gears on a car. Am I wrong in that analogy? So far on tunnels I take 30000 target or hopeful no load rpm and divide by 14.8 equals 2027KV. 2200 should bring me up to the load rpm. Proping up or down should be similar? Just my train of thought and correct me if I am in error.
Mic

[Fluid]

Using different but similar KV ratings to me looks like kind of a fine tunning issue like gears on a car....

Only if the motors are the same. When we all ran Feigao XL motors the only difference was the wind/Kv. There we used the Kv to optimize the motor for our individual setup - hull, packs, type of use. If an 2200Kv was too hot we could go to a 1973 Kv and swing the same prop for lower amps or prop up for the same amps.

Today things are different - too many choices. Changing the motor size/brand with the same Kv does not mean the same performance. My Neu 1527/1Y 1250Kv is far far more motor than my Scorpion 4025/1100Kv, and not just because of the minor difference in Kv. Even in the same motor size/brand, changing from a Neu 1527/1Y to a Neu 1527/1.5D (1250 vs 1500Kv) the performance difference is as much from the different wind configuration as from the small Kv difference. Bottom line, as long as everything else is the same, then Kv can be a relatively simple tuning option. But things seldom are...



.

[D. Newland]

Remember that if you're talking about heat racing and only having 5000 mAh packs on board, you're going to HAVE TO run a setup that only pulls...120 amps on average. Tops. That's draining 3600 mAh's for 2 minutes.

I run Neu's and the 1515 1Y is a staple 4S motor. But, I also wouldn't hesitate to run an 8XL, either. It just depends on how much money I was wanting to spend.

[HTVboats]

Obviously I have too little to do here on a rainy day. Thanks very much to all commenting here and do not stop. I am learning a lot about FE and enjoying the performance potential. I am retired and been involved in full size boats and cars then RC cars boats, nitro, gas and now including electric. After 40 years of various racing I am still a motorhead and trying to absorb all I can. The beauty of forums is hands on experience shared with people you may never meet and if your paths cross you have a head start to a friendship. That and as my knees are deteriorating I definately will have an edge when I start modifying my "Lark" scooter for some laps around Wallyworld.
Mic

[TheShaughnessy]

I was under the impression you could have up to 10,000 Mah on board. Unless i'm reading the rule book wrong. Thought most people running the castle and neu motors were using a 2p set up. I use 2p on a spec motor and the top end speed isn't too significantly different. It does affect the turning and now that i think about it acceleration.

[D. Newland]

You can, but OPC has very limited space. Most run 5K mAh (or under) packs in tunnels.