IMPBA’s new P-limited “spec” class rule proposal.

[LuckyDuc]

According to a post in International Waters by Doug Smock, a new IMPBA rule proposal is in the works to limit the allowable ESCs for the P-limited “spec” classes.

Personally, I feel that limiting ESCs in the P-limited class at a local club level is fine. Making everyone adhere to it at a national level is an entirely different thing, especially since the majority of the P-limited racers have been running this class for years with a wide variety of ESCs (some that are more affordable, and some that are more expensive than the ESCs that are being proposed)

Many of us that have helped grow this class and make it successful are the ones who are going to pay if a rule proposal like the one mentioned passes. Any proposal that requires a large majority of racers in an existing class to replace perfectly good equipment that they paid for with hard earned cash does not help the class.

I have 4 P-limited race boats that I have been racing for the last 3 years. I like to support US manufacturers whenever I can, as such I like to use Castle Creations ESCs. Having that choice is important to me.

If I have to buy new ESCs for each boat that I race in the P-limited class that hurts me and many others. I don’t have money to waste these days as I have been tightening my belt. It sounds like this proposal intends to exclude all but 2 manufacturers of marine ESCs in a class that has been in existence for quite some time now. A class that is the largest FE class nationally. This rule proposal would have a large impact on many.

As a NAMBA and IMPBA member, who has been racing this class for 3 years, and who has grown it in my own district, Dist 4, how does this help me, my club, or IMPBA? Requiring the majority of us that have been supporting this class to spend yet more money to suit the desires of the minority is not a good notion and an expensive one. Any yes, the clubs that limit ESCs for the P-limited class are in the MINORITY.

The motor is the fuse that limits power output in the P-limited classes, not the ESC. You can only put so many watts through the allowable “spec” motors before they fry.

[Steven Vaccaro]

The motor is the fuse that limits power output in the P-limited classes, not the ESC. You can only put so many watts through the allowable “spec” motors before they fry.

thats the problem, there are guys willing to burn up a motor every heat or two.

[LuckyDuc]

thats the problem, there are guys willing to burn up a motor every heat or two.

I haven't seen this, but let them. Those are not the guys that are winning races anyway.

The real problem is that all of us that are currently racing in this class with our ESCs of choice will have to buy new ESCs for each of our P-limited boats if we want to keep racing the class in our IMPBA clubs.

[Doug Smock]

The motor is the fuse that limits power output in the P-limited classes, not the ESC. You can only put so many watts through the allowable “spec” motors before they fry.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!
If done properly these classes don't require fuses. We have three years of testing that proves it.
Personally, if I have to go to a race with a box of $60.00 fuses I'll find something else to do with my time. I prefer to keep my money in my wallet and few extra $$ for a limited control isn't going to me from racing.
We are racing Sport Hydro, Hydro and O/B Tunnel and haven't has a single failure of a motor or ESC.
They are 45 to 60 amp motors,"smoke em if ya got em"

BTW I have done my fair share of promoting the limited classes in D13 and they continue to grow EVERY year. IMO this wouldn't happen if the motor smoke is rolling out of the antenna tubes.
That's all I've got for this one fellas, have fun.
Doug

[Doug Smock]

I haven't seen this, but let them. Those are not the guys that are winning races anyway.

The real problem is that all of us that are currently racing in this class with our ESCs of choice will have to buy new ESCs for each of our P-limited boats if we want to keep racing the class in our IMPBA clubs.

NO SIR.
At a club level you can contunue to do what you are currently doing.

Doug

[DPeterson]

Steve

thats the problem, there are guys willing to burn up a motor every heat or two.

D.Smock

They are 45 to 60 amp motors,"smoke em if ya got em"

Curious - I have been to alot of races since we started the P-Limited racing. I simply have not seen this. Is this for real or this an assumption? I have seen plenty of blown caps and aquacraft esc's go bad. Mainly due to wet running or over-propping.

With a quality esc you may run wet or overprop and you may reduce the life time of the motor but I don't believe you will burn one. If anybody would know it would be me. I like to see where the limits are and have the means to try.

If you really want to protect the motor - spec the prop.

These P-Limited classes has taken over for the 700 motor classes. We didn't spec the esc for these. What is different?

Doug

[Steven Vaccaro]

I haven't personally witnessed it in the p class. But have definitely seen it in n1 mono.

As for P, my experience is this, I keep selling the same motors to racers. Some of them at 2, 3 or 4 at a time. I dont think they have that many boats. :-). There is a racer that bought about 20 ul1 motors last year. NAMES WILL NOT be given.

Its easy, they push them as hard as they possibly can. The magnets will not take the extreme abuse. Is this right or wrong? Its not up to me to say. But IMO I believe they do have an advantage.

[DPeterson]

Interesting Steve

I run all YGE 120's with adjustable timing. I can time 7,15, 22.5 and 30. The UL1 motor I believe is built to run I believe somewhere between 10 and 15 degree timing for optimum efficiency. Correct me if I am wrong.

I have a lot of P-Limited boats. All my esc's are set for 15 degrees. I tried all the various timings. I did not see any more speed. Everytime I timed up, I got heat.

The only motors I have seen taken out have been due to running the boat really wet or over propping. And usually it was the stock esc that gave out first. It would be easy for me to understand the concerns if I had been witness to what is being assumed.

I have had UL1 motors throw magnets and others becoming out of balance. I purchase a lot of them due to this.

Doug

[bigwaveohs]

Without an ESC spec you will NEVER have a level playing field...just depends on the intent of the "P-limited" classes.

[Diegoboy]

I didn't know an ESC would give you a noticable speed advantage.

I hated to sell my "cheaper" Turnigy 120A esc's to but the more expensive UL-1 esc's with cap banks!

[Fluid]

Why is this such a huge problem today, when we faced an identical problem 4-6 years ago in LSH? And the same thing 13 years ago in N-1? The only difference then was the use of brushed motors. Guys were burning up 700s and 05s right and left, and no solution was found.
I guess newer boaters must believe that the first time they notice a problem, it must be unique to them.

It really boils down to what you want the "fuse" to be. Limit the ESC to stock 60 amps and racers will be burning them up and buying new ones right and left. Don't limit the ESC and some guys will be purchasing motors by the car load. These are foolish "solutions" anyway because they have nothing to do with the problem. Racers will be racers and will always want an "edge", even if the advantage is not real.

The only "true and fair solution" - according to some - is to limit the amount of energy the boat carries, by limiting the battery. Then all boaters will have to limit amp draw in order to finish a race. Wonderful! Except that in the real world racers will try to squeeze out every last amp, destroying LiPos right and left in the process - and maybe burning down a boat or two.
This isn't NiMH chemistry, LiPo cells are much more fragile.


.

[egneg]

I have never lost a motor but have smoked a few ESC's. IMO the ESC is the fuse - not the motor. I think it boils down to the nitro folks wanting to keep the advantage in mixed races.

[DPeterson]

And once again Fluid is dead on!

Doug

[Rumdog]

Who needs more rules? And who wants to over pay for a AQ or Proboat esc? It's a race boat, right?

[Flying Scotsman]

I do not race, I am a sport boater, but these silly rules have to be dismissed....you can run any ESC or prop...but the motor and batteries are the problem area, that is racing and I love it and yes people will cheat, but can they race to a podium finish. The best drivers will normally win under all water conditions.

Douggie

[Chilli]

Chuck, The only reason we have the spec controller in our district is because Dick Loeb and James Beasley already had a spec set up for the World Tunnel Championships and requested we do it in the district. Since I knew they were going to show up at all the District races and I needed their votes, I agreed to it. And in the end I'm glad we did it. Very few districts run combined classes and most nitro drivers have as much of a clue about ESC's as I do about running nitro a engine.

Danny, there is nothing wrong with extra caps but Doug won three Spec class D13 Championships last year without extra caps and he had no failures.

[Diegoboy]

Why can't we eliminate the ESC rule? If one so chooses to run the "spec ESC" they can. If one chooses to buy a cheaper T120, they have that option too.

Limited Battery and Motor should be enough.

[Doby]

So what are the approved controllers for the rule change?

[Doug Smock]

Danny, there is nothing wrong with extra caps but Doug won three Spec class D13 Championships last year without extra caps and he had no failures.

They weren't pulling 90 to 100 amps either.
14 ga wire hanging out of those motors folks.

Doug

[Dan Proulx]

If I'm dumb enough to cause a component in my drive line to fail then I'd rather it was a $60 motor than a $100+ controller. (And...I am dumb enough to do that)

The only real way to run a spec class is to limit the amount of watts that the ESC will put out. I've spoken to a few who would know about this and it is feasible, i.e. the current limiters already built into the Castle controllers, and others. If Castle would make the current limiter an adjustable parameter then you could technically let a spec class use any motor & battery combo they wanted - just as long as the wattage available didn't exceed the spec.

Until we have this capability, and I do believe it's coming, then adding more rules restricting what equipment we can buy only causes more division among our miniscule ranks and is ill advised.

[T.S.Davis]

I've baked all the RTR motors except the AQ 1800 that comes in the Motley. Well....yet. I've torched both of the AQ speedos too. It's going to happen if you push.

My fastest LSH runs an AQ speedo. In 2009 I took second at the nats with a Castle and a ProBoat motor. The AQ setup is faster and runs cooler but it's a better boat too.

My 27" JAE spec rigger is pretty fast when I don't graze the pins. Crunchy. That one is all AQ.

My LSO runs an AQ1800 with a Castle120. I found the speedo in one of my boxes and the motor was on loan so I threw it in there. I ran the Castle purely because I had one. Works great.......but it never wins a heat.

One thing is for sure. If you buy the rtr speedo you wont be running that speedo in a higher performance class. To do that you have to buy more equipment.

Why does IMPBA insist on being a little different on so many things? I don't get it. We've been running the spec classes in NAMBA since the SV came out. Why not refer to that historical evidence? 3 or 4 years of history including multiple nationals. The history has shown us that the speedos don't really make the difference between winning and losing.

[Diegoboy]

...The history has shown us that the speedos don't really make the difference between winning and losing.

I agree, So let me buy the cheaper T120's or Swordfish 120's

[Jeff]

Once again the desire to be diferant between the two organizations for what ever reason will reduce the number of participants in the class. There is a history for you. Just ask nitro guy's what class parity does for their clubs.
Once again this is like the government looking to fix something, there was not a problem to begin with. Surly Doug has too much freetime to come up with solutions to non-existant problems. Work on your boats, go racing is my sugestion.

[Brushless55]

Why can't we eliminate the ESC rule? If one so chooses to run the "spec ESC" they can. If one chooses to buy a cheaper T120, they have that option too.

Limited Battery and Motor should be enough.

[Diegoboy]

I agree with your agreement!

[Doug Smock]

Surly Doug has too much freetime to come up with solutions to non-existant problems. Work on your boats, go racing is my sugestion.

I'm going to let this go sir as it isn't worth even THIS reply.

Have a great evening.

It is what it is fellas and all of these points have been made over and over. Let's just agree to disagree and drive on.
Run what you want to at a district level and when the proposal comes out vote on it!
Later
Doug

[LuckyDuc]

I think that we should all take a step back from this and wait and see. There is no rush to pass any new national rules because things are going fine the way they are now. We had a good attendance at the last FE NATS, the largest class being P-limited sport hydro (30+ entries). There is no need for new rules when the class is still in it's infancy.

[DPeterson]

Here's my rules proposal for both NAMBA and IMPBA:

Any club or district wanting to propose a new rules nationally must have a minumum of 3 racers travel outside their district to at least one race per year for a three year period. This is to assure that the proposal will have merit and would be for the benefit of racers on a national basis.

Along with this, new rules will only be considered once every three years unless it is safety related.

Just plain tired of select groups continually trying to effect rules on a national basis.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

LOL Doug.
FOR THE RECORD, AND I AM ONLY GOING TO SAY THIS ONCE.
I WAS ASKED TO PUT TOGETHER A RULES PROPOSAL FOR THE LIMITED CLASSES FOR NATIONAL RACES.
I HAVEN'T TAKEN ANYTHING UPON MYSELF NORE HAVE I WORKED ALONE. IF YOU GUYS WANT TO DO IT, GO FOR IT!! AS JEFF SAID I DO HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO. I hope this is clear.

Please let me know if you fellas are going to write the proposal. I'll GLADLY step back and let you have at it!!

I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Thanks,
Doug

[ron1950]

doug what was the reason u were asked to make up a rules proposal in the first place? what seemed to be the problem or problems with the speed controls or motors? also why did u propsose the esc's that u did ? they do seem to be the most expencive one out there for 60amp