Miss Geico Race Prep

[Darin Jordan]

I decided to test a theory, so I've modified my MG to have an offset rudder, using the stock pieces, two spacers, and two long 10-32 Titanium bolts I happened to have.

Basically, I drilled out the stock holes on the right side strut bracket, and center piece, to 13/64", and drilled and tapped the left bracket to 10-32" threads.

I then cut the rudder standoff as shown, and used the extra piece as a spacer in the strut bracket to help it maintain it's rigidity.

Opened up the holes in the rudder bracket and countersunk them, and bolted it all together. Bent up the stock rudder linkage to fit. Solid and fully funtional. Doesn't currently allow for adding/removing castor from the rudder, but for now it'll work.

I'll try to get out this weekend and give it a test to see if it's better, worse, or no difference.

I suspect that the HOR hull is quite a bit different design. Is it fully stepped? If so, it's not the same at all.

I'll let you know how this works out. If it works, then I'll clean up the spacers and polish them, and likely through-bolt the bolts by getting longer bolts so I can adjust the rudder castor.

[Darin Jordan]

A couple more shots....

[johnf]

Nice work Darin. curious to see how the boat responds.

[ray schrauwen]

How long are the stand-off's? Nice, exactly what I was thunkin'

How thick, diameter is the rod? thks...

[Darin Jordan]

How long are the stand-off's? Nice, exactly what I was thunkin'

How thick, diameter is the rod? thks...

Ray... they are about 1.4" long... Not sure the OD... Large enough to fit over some 10-32 bolts. I don't think they need to be that large, as long as they have enough mounting area on the ends to support the rudder without allowing it to flex. This setup on mine is rock solid... Had to reverse the servo at the radio, as I moved the steering arm to the other side of the rudder.

[mx174k]

A couple more shots....

I noticed you have a three blade prop on.Can you give me any feedback on it.

[Darin Jordan]

I noticed you have a three blade prop on.Can you give me any feedback on it.

It's just on there as a mock up to test rudder clearance. That's an X450/3. Wouldn't recommend that one just yet...

[ray schrauwen]

x450 2 blade perhaps...

[Darin Jordan]

x450 2 blade perhaps...

For racing... the motor seems to handle the X447/R I use on my 1/10th scale just fine, so perhaps. But be careful and work your way up there.

[Darin Jordan]

Tested the MG with the offset rudder conversion today... WOW! Maintains it's speed in the turns, and seems to run very smoothly in the straights. Used and X447 for this video clip, with the strut slightly above the sponson bottoms. Still needs some tweaking, but I think that taking the time to offset the rudder is DEFINITELY a worthwhile mod, especially since you can do it with the stock pieces.

I think I may try mounting a second rudder on the left side and see how it works with duals. Likely to lose some due to drag, but still might be worth trying. Simple to do. Just going to fab up two more equal spacers, and use 10-32 all-thread all the way through both sides, then tie the two together using a tie-rod.

Here is a video clip I shot while testing it today. Forgive the crappy tracking. I was alone, so I used a microcamera mounted on the foot of my transmitter and tried to point it at the boat. Not used to tracking the boat that way, so I missed a couple of times.

[Brushless55]

Awesome job Darin!
could this be a Proboat upgrade coming soon?

[Darin Jordan]

Awesome job Darin!
could this be a Proboat upgrade coming soon?

We'll see.

[Darin Jordan]

Made a quick update to the rudder mounting. Replaced the titanium countersunk screws with some 3" Stainless 10-32 screws with stainless nylock nuts, and through bolted the entire assembly. It's totally solid now, and now allows the rudder castor to be adjusted. Polished up the spacers while I was at it.

[bigpapa]

looks good darin great wk as usual

[bigpapa]

added 5.5 bullets as we talked about tweeked strut a little more will try to test after i get off have a great tuesday

[airman66285]

Tested the MG with the offset rudder conversion today... WOW! Maintains it's speed in the turns, and seems to run very smoothly in the straights. Used and X447 for this video clip, with the strut slightly above the sponson bottoms. Still needs some tweaking, but I think that taking the time to offset the rudder is DEFINITELY a worthwhile mod, especially since you can do it with the stock pieces.

I think I may try mounting a second rudder on the left side and see how it works with duals. Likely to lose some due to drag, but still might be worth trying. Simple to do. Just going to fab up two more equal spacers, and use 10-32 all-thread all the way through both sides, then tie the two together using a tie-rod.

Here is a video clip I shot while testing it today. Forgive the crappy tracking. I was alone, so I used a microcamera mounted on the foot of my transmitter and tried to point it at the boat. Not used to tracking the boat that way, so I missed a couple of times.

Darin,

Did the offset rudder cure your bouncing problems? I must be lucky because mine does not bounce at all and I am running everything bone stock except for the x642 prop. I have read twice now that you stated you are confident that the MG can do mid to high forties with the stock power system - do you have any suggestions on how to make her boogie that fast? So far, my top speed is 39.8mph. I want to go fast but I want her stable and I don't want to risk blowing anything up - I had enough of that garbage with the Blackjack. I guess I am happy with the way she runs now but if there are some easy mods to make then I am all for it.

[Darin Jordan]

--- do you have any suggestions on how to make her boogie that fast? So far, my top speed is 39.8mph. I want to go fast but I want her stable and I don't want to risk blowing anything up - I had enough of that garbage with the Blackjack. I guess I am happy with the way she runs now but if there are some easy mods to make then I am all for it.

First... you have to clean up the bottom. Get it flat and all the edges sharp... razor sharp. Especially the trailing edges.

Good batteries... I use 45C ThunderPowers currently.

And a good prop. An X642 is a good prop and the speeds you are achieving are great RTR speeds. Good Runtime, etc.

To go faster, you have to prop up. These 6-pole, lower RPM setups need pitch to go faster. More blade area may help as well. The X642 has 2.638" pitch. By way of comparison, my OPC prop on my Stiletto with the same power system measures 4.0" pitch.

Something like a Prather 230 has 2.992", and gives more speed.

There are likely some ABC props, 2-blade or 3, that might also work well. Or, you can start adding pitch to your existing prop. That will get you part way there. I think ultimately, you'll want to start playing with something with more base pitch to start with, and you'll have to be careful to watch temps. Strut heights will also need to be adjusted as you make changes.

I didn't say it was going to be a bolt-on process, but I do think that mid-40's should be no problem, and closing in on 50 should be possible. Just going to depend on how hard you are willing to push things, and how much attention to detail you are willing to give.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin,

Did the offset rudder cure your bouncing problems?

I didn't have much of a "bouncing problem" either. I think with the rudder in the center, it's more sensitive to tuning. I moved it more to get it out of the line of thrust, especially in the turns.

Some work might be done, as well, in trimming up the rudder shorter and shorter until the handling goes away. It may be longer than it ultimately needs to be, but there is really only one way to find that out, and unfortunatly, it involves sacrificing a rudder blade to find out.

I'm getting some extra blades, however, and will be playing around with this. Getting 1/2" of rudder out of the water is likely good for another 1-2 mph, based on past experience...

[airman66285]

First... you have to clean up the bottom. Get it flat and all the edges sharp... razor sharp. Especially the trailing edges.

Good batteries... I use 45C ThunderPowers currently.

And a good prop. An X642 is a good prop and the speeds you are achieving are great RTR speeds. Good Runtime, etc.

To go faster, you have to prop up. These 6-pole, lower RPM setups need pitch to go faster. More blade area may help as well. The X642 has 2.638" pitch. By way of comparison, my OPC prop on my Stiletto with the same power system measures 4.0" pitch.

Something like a Prather 230 has 2.992", and gives more speed.

There are likely some ABC props, 2-blade or 3, that might also work well. Or, you can start adding pitch to your existing prop. That will get you part way there. I think ultimately, you'll want to start playing with something with more base pitch to start with, and you'll have to be careful to watch temps. Strut heights will also need to be adjusted as you make changes.

I didn't say it was going to be a bolt-on process, but I do think that mid-40's should be no problem, and closing in on 50 should be possible. Just going to depend on how hard you are willing to push things, and how much attention to detail you are willing to give.

Thank you Darin,

That is outstanding and logical advice. I am not going to touch the hull because I am a horrible painter - CADD is what I make a living at so the hull mods are out. I will try a little larger prop and that is about it. I am not going to go bleeding edge on this gorgeous boat - I want reliability first and speed second. Please let me know if you need any custom 3D modeling done - I do it for a living and can bang designs out pretty quick. Thanks again for your insight, my friend!

[Diesel6401]

Well dropped the proboat 1800kv motor (stileto) in the MG today. On a x642 on 4s read 40.1mph, first run with stock power on that prop and voltage was 36mph. Bounce was still their so I brought it in to sure untaped it, moved the batts back just a little bit further aft retaped it and it settled it down. Bounce still their but no where near to the first run. I stayed WOT pretty much the whole time taking tight left/right turns, boat never got out of shape always seems calm and just ran so well. After a 3 minute run esc was 129 and motor was 117. Telemetry and range is working like a charm. I really enjoy being able to look at my radio and see the esc temp with just a glance. I still have not set up the rpm function as of yet. Still working on that.

[mmmdowning]

I'm new here, with my first boat being a MISS Geico. I'm really learning allot on here about upgrades. I've been flying R/C planes for about 25yrs now and would like to do the boats.

Darin are you still going to try the dual rudders? Keep up the great mods.

Marty

[LiPo Power]

Darin
What is the good place to get this offset mounts?
Also, could you please make a picture of your rudder mod from the top with measurements?
I was trying to find how fare back is your rudder vs. your prop.
Thanks
Robert

Made a quick update to the rudder mounting. Replaced the titanium countersunk screws with some 3" Stainless 10-32 screws with stainless nylock nuts, and through bolted the entire assembly. It's totally solid now, and now allows the rudder castor to be adjusted. Polished up the spacers while I was at it.

[tiqueman]

Darin
What is the good place to get this offset mounts?
Also, could you please make a picture of your rudder mod from the top with measurements?
I was trying to find how fare back is your rudder vs. your prop.
Thanks
Robert

Robert, I believe Darin fabricated them himself. You could also get the Octura offsets here on OSE.

I'm new here, with my first boat being a MISS Geico. I'm really learning allot on here about upgrades. I've been flying R/C planes for about 25yrs now and would like to do the boats.

Darin are you still going to try the dual rudders? Keep up the great mods.

Marty

Welcome Marty. For your first boat, you got a fantastic one. Even w/ no mods and a little tweaking, youll have a blast with it. I have quite a few RTR boats and this by far is the best.

I just did the offset mount using the Octura offsets. Havnt run it yet as its dark.. and raining, but hope to turn some laps in the am.

[Boomer]

You can also get a complete kit from Kintec Racing. I just got a 2nd generation off-set bracket with the bottom section removed. Very nice installation. You can contact them at kintecracing@msn.com
Boomer

[tiqueman]

Just got in from some pretty intensive dialing and I came to a conclusion. 2 sets of batteries and almost 2 hours later... THE INLINE RUDDER HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH BOUNCING!!!! It does however help greatly in the turns. I moved batteries at 1/4" increments from 2 inches past the front of the trays to touching the transom. I moved the strut from as low and negative & positive as I could get it at 1/16 increments to as high and neg/ pos as I could get it. Funny thing is.. in ALL scenarios, it never really rode different. It corned different and took off at different bow angles.. but once on a plane, it was all about the same.

[Darin Jordan]

Just got in from some pretty intensive dialing and I came to a conclusion. 2 sets of batteries and almost 2 hours later... THE INLINE RUDDER HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH BOUNCING!!!!

I've been trying to tell people that... it's all about getting the setup right... Takes some time.

Funny thing is.. in ALL scenarios, it never really rode different. It corned different and took off at different bow angles.. but once on a plane, it was all about the same.

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing?? The boat is extremely stable and easy to drive, and isn't as "finicky" as some other boats when it comes to weight balance, etc...

That being said.... it's also, basically, "underpowered"... it's a race boat with a sport boating power system. If you put some real power to it, I have a feeling you may find those adjustments start coming more into play.

[Boomer]

That is weird. There must be something unique about your MG for it not to response to any of your adjustments. I too have played around with battery placement, and shaft angle adjustments, and found a noticeable differences in the trim of the boat with the different battery positions. If they were to far in one direction or another, the boat would be either too loose, or bow heavy.

The boat has enough power to attain full plain regardless of the battery location, but if I put the batteries to far forward, and if it had diving planes on it, the darn thing might submerge. Perhaps I exaggerate, but just to make a point.

I don't see huge differences with shaft adjustments at this point, but I have not done but two changes. I did notice a slight trim change.

For my first tests, I used an original version, Kintec Racing ruddder offset kit, which improved the boats ride, but at the expense of adding lots of drag at lower speeds, and in turns, not to mention the dragging portion of the bracket creating a water spout or geyser style rooster tail until the boat achieved full plane. Actually, it looked kind of cool

I just received and installed the next generation Kintec bracket with the lower part of the bracket machined out. I am sure that will make marked improvement across the board. I will know for sure this weekend, if the weather permits testing. (see the pictue below)

It is interesting how your boat is able to defy physics, very strange. It might be interesting to weight it, and compare that to the weight of other MGs. Maybe your boat has a heavier lay-up?? A heavier boat might influence the boats behavior to the point that it is not sensitive to the changes you made. Just trying to understand why it did not respond to the changes you made??

Other than running a blue printed X 642 prop, my MG is stock with a pair of 2S 5000mAh 30C for power. With the winter coming, I hope to take the time to blue print the bottom of the hull. I have located an auto paint store that will match the paint for me, so I can touch up any body work that may be necessary to true up the bottom, and sharpen the edges. Not sure if that will make a big difference but, it is the right thing to do. One's bottom should be true, right?

Thanks for all the time you invested in your tests!
Boomer

[tiqueman]

I've been trying to tell people that... it's all about getting the setup right... Takes some time.




I'm not sure how this is a bad thing?? The boat is extremely stable and easy to drive, and isn't as "finicky" as some other boats when it comes to weight balance, etc...

That being said.... it's also, basically, "underpowered"... it's a race boat with a sport boating power system. If you put some real power to it, I have a feeling you may find those adjustments start coming more into play.

Im not at all upset or bashing on the boat Darin. I hope it didnt come out that way. I planned on having to do some tweaking, I guess my expectations of the offset were just too high with what a lot of folks were saying. I still think its one of the best.. or the best handling cat I have. I just got to get it to settle down.

That is weird. There must be something unique about your MG for it not to response to any of your adjustments. I too have played around with battery placement, and shaft angle adjustments, and found a noticeable differences in the trim of the boat with the different battery positions. If they were to far in one direction or another, the boat would be either too loose, or bow heavy.

The boat has enough power to attain full plain regardless of the battery location, but if I put the batteries to far forward, and if it had diving planes on it, the darn thing might submerge. Perhaps I exaggerate, but just to make a point.

I don't see huge differences with shaft adjustments at this point, but I have not done but two changes. I did notice a slight trim change.

For my first tests, I used an original version, Kintec Racing ruddder offset kit, which improved the boats ride, but at the expense of adding lots of drag at lower speeds, and in turns, not to mention the dragging portion of the bracket creating a water spout or geyser style rooster tail until the boat achieved full plane. Actually, it looked kind of cool

I just received and installed the next generation Kintec bracket with the lower part of the bracket machined out. I am sure that will make marked improvement across the board. I will know for sure this weekend, if the weather permits testing. (see the pictue below)

It is interesting how your boat is able to defy physics, very strange. It might be interesting to weight it, and compare that to the weight of other MGs. Maybe your boat has a heavier lay-up?? A heavier boat might influence the boats behavior to the point that it is not sensitive to the changes you made. Just trying to understand why it did not respond to the changes you made??

Other than running a blue printed X 642 prop, my MG is stock with a pair of 2S 5000mAh 30C for power. With the winter coming, I hope to take the time to blue print the bottom of the hull. I have located an auto paint store that will match the paint for me, so I can touch up any body work that may be necessary to true up the bottom, and sharpen the edges. Not sure if that will make a big difference but, it is the right thing to do. One's bottom should be true, right?

Thanks for all the time you invested in your tests!
Boomer

Its not that changes had no effect. It did ride more bow heavy w/ batts forwadr vs really nosing up w/ them all the way back. What didnt change was its behavior in a straight line. It always bounced the same.

[Darin Jordan]

Im not at all upset or bashing on the boat Darin. I hope it didnt come out that way. I planned on having to do some tweaking, I guess my expectations of the offset were just too high with what a lot of folks were saying.

OK, I get it... No worries...

The biggest benefit I've found of moving the rudder off to the side and out of the prop thrust was the boats ability to maintain it's speed through the turns. I don't think it's any faster in the straights, but when you turn a rudder that large in the middle of the prop thrust, it's going to scrub some speed in my opinion. I think the offset rudder does make the boat easier to tune as well. Needs more input, however, to turn to the left now...

[Boomer]

Ah........... On my last runs with the original Kintec bracket, most of the bounce was eliminated. It still has a little at the top end. I attribute that to it not having the power to carry the bow. If I put more power in there, I am pretty sure the boat will carrying the bow without any bounce.
Another option is a different prop that has more lift. If you watch videos of the real race boats, while they have all the power in the world, they bounce too. Some of that is due to the waves, but even on glass, their bows lift and fall. If you have ever seen really fast drag boats, you'd see that they take a "set" once on plane, and if it doesn't crash, will run throught the 1/4 mile almost fully out of the water. That is pure HP. I have been watching some of the videos of Miss G, and observe that the more powerful set ups run smoother than the ones closer to stock power. Thus my conclusion.

Hey, it's all fun! Cool boat.
Boomer










Thanks for the clarification.
Boomer