Active canard

[TotalPackage]

I've seen pics of the real canards move and they are very fast, almost fluttering. One issue I see is that if the boat starts to lift off and the canard tries to adjust it may adjust too far and dive the boat.

I think I might prefer a manual adjust where I could flatten the boat into the wind and raise it with the wind. Lift the bow for cornering (like the F1 boats do) and flatten it for straights.

-t

My plan is to run the boat and find the minimum and maximums and set them as default to prevent the flaps from going to far. As far as the speed control is concerned whats to see? its already been said that you can stack two powerblocks
and run them from one logic. So when I find the time to do what i already know will work I will .Not at the expense of my ego needing to prove something to fluid or andy thats for sure. Hey fluid you wanna see to fets boards stacked? pull out your soldering iron. Besides If I fail ill only be following in you and andy footsteps.
Lack of something constructive to say fueled you and andys goofey insults.

Tharmer it will take alot of test and tune to find a good response speed as well as the endpoints. It will not be perfect no doubt but a stand alone unit free of the rx/tx sysyet is definately the way to go. As far as the bouncing you could create a data log system for you sensor and record the results. You could then plot the data points then try to fit a best line.Who knows what the function may be. Quadratic or something else.Anyway back to my failures lol.

[TotalPackage]

Yeah, whatever happened to that project? Lots and lots and lots and lots of talk = zero action. Just another in a ceaseless list of "colorful discussions"......



.

I had plenty of prior knowledge its called reading ! I just dont deem myself an expert like you so I ask questions I cant help that you cant accept others peoples ideas without insult . The conversations only get colorful when you open your colorful mouth.You set no benchmark for me so I can do watever I want with my boats. Dont you worry about it thats all.Simple.Nor do I deem things that I fail at impossible.Do you and let me do me.

[drwayne]

Critics love to say ' it cannot be done ' then rescind that with ' was said to prompt the successful attempt'.

Failure will hurt nothing but his own pocket, and we get all this entertainment for free !

Interesting idea, work or not , Im just here to watch the circus.

[TotalPackage]

The only Circus you will see is this 1990 U-31 .Or the clowns on here runnin their mouths lol.No just talking here Im bout it!If anything slows progress it's "negativity".

[AndyKunz]

I've seen pics of the real canards move and they are very fast, almost fluttering.

That's due to the slop in the control linkages and to the buffeting of the wind and water against the surface. The shock forces are pretty rough. It'll give a servo one heck of a workout (digital servo would be essential). It's a place for a 5ms frame rate, that's for sure! Now that heading hold gyros are available, it would be interesting to see what one of them can do.

Want some interesting reading? Find out how they're actuated. It will give a new appreciation for one component of the race boat as system.

I can't wait to see the videos of his attempts on the water

Andy

[TotalPackage]

Sound like a simple job for a servo saver if you ask me.The real boat probably uses a hydraulic
system but like your "expert said theres a big difference between real and rc so who cares.. I suggest you keep your boats tuned before one of your records get shot down!Or try posting a current build yourselves once in awhile instead of stroking yourselves coz you correct or give a novice advice.I cant think of the last time fluid or andy had their names under a new build thread and if you do coz I know your reading this pop some of your net popcorn and critique IT!All that knowledge yall sure come up with some stupid remarks that truly make for colorful reading and you follow a failure around on the forum lol. What an endeavor for experts.I dont even notice your build threads to be quite honest.So I wont waste a bag of my popcorn on your sad stories.Andy what real experience you have driving a real tunnel hull?Stop lying youre just an egghead that reads alot MR. academically exempt.Keep making spectrum money or come out with the first ultra hv esc since YOU have all the knowledge. All you guys do is tell people they are wrong about this or that cause you couldnt do it. Man please yall are so smart but you right here on ose along with everybody else failing at your own attempts of your own ideas free of enigmas such as yourselves . If you had constant nags like I do along the way youd see how challenging what I do is. I have to fight you haters that want to see me fail at everything I do and for what? You two talk a good game but no one whos worthy even waste their time to challenge you,Or worry about me for that matter.Dont waste your time waiting on me to fail build a boat once in awhile and watch your own failures pile up.Now chew on that popcorn!

[TotalPackage]

That's due to the slop in the control linkages and to the buffeting of the wind and water against the surface. The shock forces are pretty rough. It'll give a servo one heck of a workout (digital servo would be essential). It's a place for a 5ms frame rate, that's for sure! Now that heading hold gyros are available, it would be interesting to see what one of them can do.

Want some interesting reading? Find out how they're actuated. It will give a new appreciation for one component of the race boat as system.

I can't wait to see the videos of his attempts on the water

Andy

The shock forces are greater on the rudder how does a pusle rate correlate to the servo being stronger holding position better?Thats dictated by the case motor and gears of the of the servo. Pulse width and duty cycle dictate speed and position of the servo.So I dont see your point. here again sounds like your quest was a truly autonomous system i guess if you were going that hard at it then it failed. In such an endeavor I would have been looking for a 100 percent logic design with gates and adders. Would have been much faster. This is a hobby endeavor not a top secret design for Thiokol.See some people are too smart! While around the course I simply want a system with an up or down button that I can set the canards at a static point and run the boat several times till i find the setting that is good for the conditions an combination of speed and handling then lock it in.Then in the hard right turns the flaps move to a position of slightly more downforce. Fascilitated simply by an ir shudder on the rudder arm the longer the shudder is on the harder the turn the more canard downforce to a set default point(found during trimming) not infinity.When the shudder goes off the boat is back in a straight and the canards return to the default all around setting. Simple as far as the travel and speed of the wings i dont any of think any of the angles will be that great and the speed I dont think is a problem in fact I dont think you would want it moving all that fast coz if you change the attitude to abrubtly you will rock and roll more than likely.Only a true fool and definately not an expert be able to not see that great angles and abrupt changes in the active surface will lead to mayham coz 4 1 us the user cant keep up. If you had a truly autonomous situation like a self guided missle it would be to fast for you to drive with its supernatural handling.For anti blowover you see a bad angle you flap and go back to default ever checking angle .Maybe even momentarily cut the signal to the esc who knows. It can be done one way or another.In other word the system is just my trimmer allowing me to drive he knows how to trim coz we go find out whats good before he attemps to.Let me go write some BASIC azz code with some basic AZZ servos and show these rocket scientist how to have some fun watch yall!:thats all its about guys fun and occasional twist. Speed isnt the only competition you enter a scale boat in anyways so maybe im scratching for concours points.Get out my business gee wiz. The only limits are me and if I was as smart as one of you guys it would have been done a long time ago and I definately wouldnt have a boss. Your brains aint the problem its your heart and your soul. Youre negative you over analyze things and you let yourself as well as others set your limits. Dont tell me what I cant do ask yourself what can "I" as in yourself do.

[AndyKunz]

I suspect there's going to be a vote coming up again soon...

Don't "probably" yourself - GOOGLE, DUDE! It's not that hard to find out. Ever sit in one of them yourself? I have - no power turned on, and I was able to control the canard. Hmm, wonder what could have done that... Hint - it's not on a hand control.

I'm an egghead?!?! OK, I'm guilty. I do read a lot. I also DO a lot. You know why I wasn't so up on your ESC project? Because I designed them, I sold them for years, I assembled them, I repaired them when they failed (more often when their operator's failed to follow instructions). I started on a 200A brushless control myself. I learned a lot (the expensive way). I DO other things too. I attend races. Full scale, in the pits. Models, too, but on the drivers stand (now if we can only get some racing action around here - working on that too). I set some records, too, while you were probably still in diapers. I retired from that but got sucked back in (thanks, Drobie).

Like I said before, I tried what you're thinking about 10 years ago. 10 years is a long time in the controls world. Since then servos have improved quite a bit. Digital servos are now the norm - back then they were $200. Gyros are now $20 items - back then they were $150. Frame rates were "fast" at 16ms. Now we (Spektrum) has 5.5ms pistol radios.

I tried to drop a few hints for you on what I would try if I were going to play around with this project today. You see, I work in the hobby field, and I know a wee bit more about what's available than a lot of guys (I'm still learning more all the time, too, by working with the guys who are creating this stuff).

My most recent build thread is on RCG and partly on RCU. Search for it. It won't be hard to find (hint - they have a Builders forum).

Now lets see you DO something! I don't care if it fails (maybe it will, maybe it won't), just stop yapping and start assembling! You have a MUCH better chance of it succeeding now, as modern equipment is much faster and better to tune. I didn't have those luxuries 10 years ago.

Andy

[Rumdog]

Somebody's back off their meds..... Great reading though. I'd like to see it work as well. Get to it!!

[tharmer]

Total, don't the F1 boats raise the bow in turns and flatten it in straights? I think that's to load the prop to keep it from hopping as well as to keep the sponsons light for less resistance.

Good point about shutting the esc off in blowover conditions. However, if the shaft is at an angle, won't shutting own the motor power take lift from the stern, thereby increasing the problem?

I love the attempt you're making. I've been tempted to some pretty radical things myself, like an adjustable-on-the-fly strut angle.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Guize, give him a break and just help where you can. It's his trip and I wish him all the success with it. That way, I have less to eat if he makes it.

Andy, you're right about current equipment maybe making this more realistic than it was before. (I still remember reeds!)

-t

[Fluid]

...don't the F1 boats raise the bow in turns and flatten it in straights? I think that's to load the prop to keep it from hopping as well as to keep the sponsons light for less resistance.

Nope, exactly the opposite. Using the motor plate they drop the bow when entering the turn to promote better turning, then air the boat out on the straights. The fastest tunnels are the ones running on the last few inches of the sponsons - but they are the ones most likely to blow over.


.

[drwayne]

[QUOTE=TotalPackage;219981].................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. . ! While around the course I simply want a system with an up or down button that I can set the canards at a static point and run the boat several times till i find the setting that is good for the conditions an combination of speed and handling then lock it in.Then in the hard right turns the flaps move to a position of slightly more downforce. Fascilitated simply by an ir shudder on the rudder arm the longer the shudder is on the harder the turn the more canard downforce to a set default point(found during trimming) not infinity.When the shudder goes off the boat is back in a straight and the canards return to the default all around setting. .................................................. ........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....
Presets without environment input ?
A task for channel mixing on your handset ( like rc trimtabs )
W

[TotalPackage]

the presets are made with the imput of the enviroment in the test runs . Maybe have prestes conditions like calm med and chop and find presets for all conditions through test and tune.Seems easier that a full on autonomous system. Just my ideas to not make it too elaborate .I think there would be alot more things to consider if you really want to go at this hard.I agree it would be kinda like a 3rd cahnnel mix but i dont have to control it all i have to do is drive. Fooling with that mix in a close race with scales naw forget that crap. You have to pay attention people that have scales know they want their 1000 to 2000 dollars rigs back in one piece more than they want a checkered flag.True 1/8th scales are a different breed.They are capable of blinding speed but we know it all about looks, the cool lines, and guises.

[drwayne]

Almost every 3 ch pistol radio Ive seen since Y2K has programmable mixing between 2 ( some 3 ) channels.. set and forget stuff. .
Test for your limits, set and forget !
Just dont forget we want VIDEO !
W

[tsenecal]

I come from the model submarine world, where we have been fighting a very similar problem called porpoising while submerged. the submarine community has spent years tweaking the "pitch controller":


http://www.mikessubworks.com/subs_only.html

http://www.caswellplating.com/models/pitch.html


currently several of the engineering types are trying to get the heading hold gyros from helicopters to do the same thing.

[TotalPackage]

I come from the model submarine world, where we have been fighting a very similar problem called porpoising while submerged. the submarine community has spent years tweaking the "pitch controller":


http://www.mikessubworks.com/subs_only.html

http://www.caswellplating.com/models/pitch.html


currently several of the engineering types are trying to get the heading hold gyros from helicopters to do the same thing.

very interesting

[AndyKunz]

I'm one of those engineers. I did the APC's for Skip (actually, all his stuff except the BE-VR) when he still owned SubTech and haven't been able to separate myself since then.

All the existing sub ones on the market (as far as I can tell from my research) are based on G sensors, not gyros. They measure tilt, which is adequate at the low speeds and low rates of change on subs. The UPC-1 is the best out there, but I'm a little biased :)

At the recent meet at Carmel, I was able to see a variety of boats of all different sizes running the devices I made over the last 15 years. I was amazed at just how well Skip specified operation of his products. Literally, the same unit worked in subs from about 14" long up to his huge 6' Type 23, and the only change was to select a different gain (3-positions covered that huge range).

They won't work in a high-speed surface vessel, as I pointed out earlier. Don't even bother wasting your time looking at them for running canards on a hydro.

Andy

[TotalPackage]

Its alot of options here:Which one to use guess ill have to figure it out . I was considering 3 axis and a vtail mixer. Im imagining an algorithm that will try to keep the attitude level no more no less. The more is out of bounds the more flap the less of bounds the less flap. When its at what I designate as level it holds that setting until it needs to alter it to get it back in the right attitude.And endless loop.You can do alot with a microcontroller and one of these devices. I want everything properly intergrated so Im going this route no rc gyros per se though I know one of these devices is at the heart of some of the hobby gyros. These press right into the board.


When this is done right in my mind You should be able to hold the boat and as you rock if from a terminal angle to level the flaps should move to compsensate

[hazegry]

Your knowledge is not the best. First, nobody said anything about turbine-powered hydros. Second, it was Jim Lucero, not "Bob". (Jim was alive in April 2009, when did he become "late"?) Joe Taggart used an adjustable front canard surface on his limitied hydros in the 1970s IIRC. The 1980 turbine Pay-n-Pak did not use an adjustable canard surface.





Mr Taggart was also the first to put a vertical tail on a hydro in the 1940s (the Tomyann I believe). He did it not to provide stability, but so that other racers could see his boat through his roostertail (which was a lot smaller back in the 50s than they are today).


.

wow thats a killer looking boat.

[TotalPackage]

One pic of this boat is enough on this thread. The comments in it are truly irrelevant to me.Some of these cats on heres main focus is to be enigmas. Anyone got any helpful feed back or familiarity with any of these sensors?Lastly I dont care who started canards or whos living or dead . Im starting these on my circus case closed. Im as of now Im alive and well so thats whats relevant here. Lastly I never said the pak had "ACTIVE CANARDS" so for all those interested lets move on. weve been here before and the whole debate thing is useless.

[hazegry]

I was just saying I thought it was a cool looking boat is all, and I had never seen it. I didnt have any input on your canard idea but thought it was a interesting idea, its apparently allot more interesting than its author.

[TotalPackage]

Anyway Ive been gathering parts:

[Simon.O.]

You do it youve built like one boat since ive been on here

It says "he" not me so it could be speaking of you. Dang doc you cant read lol

At the risk of getting an infraction notice from the Mods I will say this.

TotalPackage Stop being so confrontational and aggresivly defensive. Please try to keep with the spirit of a hobby forum and have some fun.

This is not life and death shiate we are doing here. Let's all chill and run boats and enjoy that

[Steven Vaccaro]

Lets get back on track. I would like to see more of the active flaps when your ready.

[TotalPackage]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[TotalPackage]

xxx

[TotalPackage]

[Steven Vaccaro]

Interesting stuff.

[TotalPackage]

a little later on today maybe http://gatjens.com/cockpit/cockpit.htm

[jantagg]

Well, Jay is correct in what he stated about my Dad (Joe Taggart) in his first use of a canard. However the time frame was a bit off. Actually, it was late 40's early 5o's that he put a canard of his 7 liter TOMYANN. He used a brake handle to wing the canard down to keep the boat from lifting. He was not permitted to raise the wing because of the rules of the time. (I thiink that is true)

Tom Taggart