Active canard

[TotalPackage]

Sorry guys I had to show you this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnauNm1qOsA

[andym]

Would be nice to see the rest of it.

[m4a1usr]

Its been a project for many who want to effect realistic control of the aerodynamics. But none have been able to make it work effectively to date. Still, its nice to see those wanting to break thru with new ideas and techniques. Someones going to make it happen. Just not sure when.

John

[drwayne]

Full size Unlimiteds use this idea .. must work because most all have them..
Read somewhere of a gyro used in an rc applet... no idea if successful

perhaps we will see this example running on water ???

vid ?



W

[TotalPackage]

Perhaps I could get a loan from the ones so impatient lol. Just had a kitchen house fire last 2 week ago; 8 grand of damage. I dont think it all that hard personally. The flap could easily be coded to shaft speed. The more speed the more downforce applied by the flaps. Or more simple is a default setting for straights and a ir shutter on the rudder arm that adds downforce and puts the sponsons down on the water flat in the right turns for better cornering.
Dont know about a gyro but an xyz sensor and a microprocessor might fascilitate anti-blowover.Thers a certain bloke out there that coud help with setting up the excel data bases to paste and copy into microprocessor for such an endeavor. One day maybe he might go insane temporarily and speed up this process then Ill be glad to show video. I cant run the boat till perfect cause it will get severely critiqued on ose, No doubt.Im not really into failure just not my thing.I will likely never build another scale boat unless it has canards on it. They dont have to be active they can be static consisting of an upside down wing profile. The person who designed the canards for the real thing must have had intentions for the canards to bring front sponsons out of the water versus holding them down coz if the intentions were to prevent blowover they are all wrong from the start (rounded on top and flat on the bottom creates lift)! shoud be flat on top and rounded on the bottom then you could probaby lose the flap all together. Having the flap gives the coder some nice option if hes up to the task.The flaps could be used to get up on step quicker as well but it all happens so fast I think that would be more of a novelty to brag about more than really working. But a v-tail mix and some code might effectively reduce chine walk coz it happens in the straights and boats will have time to get some effect from cannard system.

Glassing bottom in progress then primer then white base . Gimme time!

[Fluid]

Full size Unlimiteds use this idea .. must work because most all have them..Read somewhere of a gyro used in an rc applet...

There is a world of difference between full scale and models. Things happen way faster in a model than in a full scale boat, and the driver gets feedback of an impending blow-over sooner than we in RC do.

The only successful use of controllable canard surfaces I've ever seen was for a SAW nitro OB tunnel. The canard surfaces were controllable winglettes just behind the driver's windscreen and were tied to the throttle channel. At mid throttle they were neutral, and at full throttle they provided downforce. They worked and the racer holds several OB SAW records with them - but I'm not certain they were "necessary".

The problem with gyros is they don't know the difference between a bounce on a wave and a full scale blow-over - they would over correct all the time and probably with too much delay. Full-scale canard surfaces are used to control the ride attitude, not just to prevent blowovers. The father of one of our club members invented them for full-scale hydros.


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[TotalPackage]

To my knowledge the father of the modern day turbine powered hydroplane (canards) and all
was Bob Lucero, the boat : 1980 u-25 pay n pak.The microprocessor I propose operates in mips so in not worried about the speed of the events. The xyz sensor and microprocessor can handle it the challenge is relevant coding.No one out there is running shaft speed recognition and putting it to something useful either that I have seen. Win lose or draw Im gonna try it . If it fails it fails.Anyway just wanted those interested to take a look thats all.

[AndyKunz]

I tried it several years ago, quite unsuccessfully (but it make a great splash).

Jay's right. As for speed of the micro isn't the issue - the speed of the sensor (and the ability to differentiate between bump and flip) is a major issue, as well as the speed of a servo and the timing it takes to update one. Using off-the-shelf components is NOT going to work. You need a system designed for the speed of a flip of a model.

That speed of the flip, btw, turns out that it can be within 1/30th of a second although most are slower. I have video of a flip which literally happened between two frames in a camcorder. You can see the first 180 degrees happening during the first half-frame, and the boat was almost completely upright in the second half-frame (using standard interlaced NTSC). In comparison, the frame rate to servos is about 20ms (1/50th of a second).

If you're going to work on this, I wish you good fortune. You'll have a lot of fun rowing and learning. Take it in stride - Edison had 100's of failures for every success. If you succeed, you'll have fame and fortune.

Andy

[TotalPackage]

I wont be doing any rowing sorry, I got motor guide lol.

[drwayne]

I tried it several years ago, quite unsuccessfully (but it make a great splash).

If you're going to work on this, I wish you good fortune. You'll have a lot of fun rowing and learning. Take it in stride - Edison had 100's of failures for every success. If you succeed, you'll have fame and fortune.
Andy

Im sure most everyone who has run a scale hydro has dreamt of functional active canards.
I sure did with my hulls ... several lucky saves when they 'launched', with rapid deployment of PANIC on the trigger finger.. ... and several not so lucky endings'

Ride attitude is the main goal in fullscale.. the ability to get the ride pads out of the wash early can remove a few seconds from a lap time .. important stuff !
With the abundance of off shelf miniature sensors , this attempt could herald a new era to our rc scale hydros...

Nay sayers beware ! .. this members enthusiasm could be shot down by those who have tried and failed ..
We learn best from our own endeavours... and if he gets it right ?
Im sitting here at the keyboard waiting to see what happens next.

Wayne

[Fluid]

To my knowledge the father of the modern day turbine powered hydroplane (canards) and all was the late mr. Bob Lucero, the boat : 1980 u-25 pay n pak.

Your knowledge is not the best. First, nobody said anything about turbine-powered hydros. Second, it was Jim Lucero, not "Bob". (Jim was alive in April 2009, when did he become "late"?) Joe Taggart used an adjustable front canard surface on his limitied hydros in the 1970s IIRC. The 1980 turbine Pay-n-Pak did not use an adjustable canard surface.





Mr Taggart was also the first to put a vertical tail on a hydro in the 1940s (the Tomyann I believe). He did it not to provide stability, but so that other racers could see his boat through his roostertail (which was a lot smaller back in the 50s than they are today).



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[v-spec]

Xfactor is back guess it's time for some interesting reading again!

[drwayne]

Fluid:
The 1980 turbine Pay-n-Pak did not use an adjustable canard surface.

OMG !

Can ya see the sideburns on those geezers ?

If I had whiskers like that there'd be an NRA bounty on my head !

[TotalPackage]

I agree it probably wont work.

[v-spec]

It's neat even if it doesn't work. I think I'd just make it adjustable and stay in certain positions but still controlled with a channel on the radio. I think it would be (more) functional that way instead of trying to overdo it with gyro's etc which more than likely won't give the desired effect.

[TotalPackage]

Your knowledge is not the best. First, nobody said anything about turbine-powered hydros. Second, it was Jim Lucero, not "Bob". (Jim was alive in April 2009, when did he become "late"?) Joe Taggart used an adjustable front canard surface on his limitied hydros in the 1970s IIRC. The 1980 turbine Pay-n-Pak did not use an adjustable canard surface.





Mr Taggart was also the first to put a vertical tail on a hydro in the 1940s (the Tomyann I believe). He did it not to provide stability, but so that other racers could see his boat through his roostertail (which was a lot smaller back in the 50s than they are today).



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Mr. Fluid I stand corrected on everything I said . I also appreciate appreciate the history lesson on Unlimited Hydoplanes. This is off topic . You hold some current records in the boats right now correct? Could you tell me what they are and your speeds?Not trying to be funny just curious?

[Simon.O.]

OMG !

Can ya see the sideburns on those geezers ?

If I had whiskers like that there'd be an NRA bounty on my head !

If you are looking at 5th in from the left then he either has a beard or an impressive set of lamb chops.
The guy on the boat has smaller sidies than me !!

To stay on topic.
I have read a lot about active canards and active trim control on RC boats. I have all respect to he who pushes the boundary and learns more.

Long sidies means less shaving foam too.

[Ub Hauled]

You hold some current records in the boats right now correct? Could you tell me what they are and your speeds?Not trying to be funny just curious?

NAMBA RECORDS

[AndyKunz]

Had to laugh at the record book. The N1 Hydro record is 3 MPH faster than the P Hydro record I set 12 or 13 years ago.

Andy

[TotalPackage]

Wayne it seems to me if a gyro can deal with the sudden and ever changing attitude of a big 3d chopper it can deal with a blowover.Sorry guys after some thinking I just dont buy it.

[v-spec]

Wayne it seems to me if a gyro can deal with the sudden and ever changing attitude of a big 3d chopper it can deal with a blowover.Sorry guys after some thinking I just dont buy it.

Then try it and when you got it running go rewrite the record books!

[drwayne]

Had to laugh at the record book. The N1 Hydro record is 3 MPH faster than the P Hydro record I set 12 or 13 years ago.

Andy

After the GFC even the mile is a bit stretched.. ,, making us work harder to beat previous markers.
Chance is high the course is longer than before....

[drwayne]

Wayne it seems to me if a gyro can deal with the sudden and ever changing attitude of a big 3d chopper it can deal with a blowover.Sorry guys after some thinking I just dont buy it.

good way to burn out a high response servo is to grab the tail of a 3D and shake like crap ... welcome to the nose of a fast boat.

Factors you should consider.
Speed of boat proportional to speed of servo response .. and inversely to deployment end point.
No activation through cornering is a thought.. else that nose high corner may induce a canard nose under ...

grab one a $25 gyro from HC and try ...grab a pic, and play !

[TotalPackage]

For me its not about rewriting record books, or a colorful discussion.I believe in talking to others, as well as my own thinking that it is possible.These folk may have been unsucessful and so may I but that doesnt mean its impossible. Secondly fundamentally speaking sounds like were talking to different things from the start. As you remember the first thing said was "theres a big difference in real boat and rc boats" yeah it sure is. Most of us run flexshaft.
So we can control our ride attitude more so with strut angle and what have you. Next It was said that the canards where desingned to help with attitude. Does this mean that the failed attempt of the others tried to mimmick the canards on the real boats in the same way?If so ,this is not my quest. I simply want a canard that puts force down in the right turns to try to keep the boat flat in the turns and a canard that if it sees an angle above a preset value it will diploy flaps up to a preset value to bring boat back down to a preset value and then start all over again. If you tried to control the action with say a surface 4 channel (which I have one) thats how youd get into trouble because youd inadvertantly move the flaps and induce a blow over instead of prevent one. Anyway.......

[drwayne]

For me its not about rewriting record books, or a colorful discussion.I believe in talking to others, as well as my own thinking that it is possible.These folk may have been unsucessful and so may I but that doesnt mean its impossible. Secondly fundamentally speaking sounds like were talking to different things from the start. As you remember the first thing said was "theres a big difference in real boat and rc boats" yeah it sure is. Most of us run flexshaft.
So we can control our ride attitude more so with strut angle and what have you. Next It was said that the canards where desingned to help with attitude. Does this mean that the failed attempt of the others tried to mimmick the canards on the real boats in the same way?If so ,this is not my quest. I simply want a canard that puts force down in the right turns to try to keep the boat flat in the turns and a canard that if it sees an angle above a preset value it will diploy flaps up to a preset value to bring boat back down to a preset value and then start all over again. If you tried to control the action with say a surface 4 channel (which I have one) thats how youd get into trouble because youd inadvetantly move the flaps and induce a blow over instead of preveny one. Anyway.......

less talk, more action !

[TotalPackage]

I hear ya wayne. Sorry for the typos.

[drwayne]

I hear ya wayne. Sorry for the typos.

typos dont worry me.
What really bugs me is the forum spell checks Australian into American. !!

come back in a week and show what you've done.

[AndyKunz]

At least with this project there's a much better chance of success vs. making a 200A ESC from parts with no prior knowledge. It'll cost him a few high-speed servos and gyros but he'll be able to run the boat the whole time.

Except when it's upside down, of course :)

Andy

[tharmer]

I've seen pics of the real canards move and they are very fast, almost fluttering. One issue I see is that if the boat starts to lift off and the canard tries to adjust it may adjust too far and dive the boat.

I think I might prefer a manual adjust where I could flatten the boat into the wind and raise it with the wind. Lift the bow for cornering (like the F1 boats do) and flatten it for straights.

-t

[Fluid]

At least with this project there's a much better chance of success vs. making a 200A ESC from parts with no prior knowledge.

Yeah, whatever happened to that project? Lots and lots and lots and lots of talk = zero action. Just another in a ceaseless list of "colorful discussions"......



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