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Thread: It's Official- IMPBA D12 is racing FE's in 2010 !!!!

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    Default It's Official- IMPBA D12 is racing FE's in 2010 !!!!

    Hey Guys, Just got back from Richmond. The District 12 meeting went well. We had some spirited debate on the subject of FE's and the district club officers voted overwhelmingly to let FE racers run in combined classes with the nitro guys in P-mono/B-mono, P-spec hydro/B-hydro and P-spec tunnel/B-tunnel. The rules need to be tweaked. Members that were present wanted more stringent spec rules so we will be running spec speed controllers among other things. Once the rules are finalized, I will post them here.

    Here is the D12 Race Schedule for 2010.
    May 14-16, Greensboro, NC
    June 4-6, Queenstown, MD
    June 25-27, Centreville, VA
    August 27-29, Chesapeake, VA
    September 24-26, Hagerstown, MD

    Other Races:
    Cheaspeake Bay Gas Clash: Queenstown, MD July 30-Aug 1st

    We have a new web master for the D12 web site. Hopefully it will be updated shortly.

    www.impba12.com/index.htm

    Thank you all for your encouragement, support and guidance.
    Special thanks to Doug Smock for his leadership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nautiboyz View Post
    Hey Guys, Just got back from Richmond. The District 12 meeting went well. We had some spirited debate on the subject of FE's and the district club officers voted overwhelmingly to let FE racers run in combined classes with the nitro guys in P-mono/B-mono, P-spec hydro/B-hydro and P-spec tunnel/B-tunnel. The rules need to be tweaked. Members that were present wanted more stringent spec rules so we will be running spec speed controllers among other things. Once the rules are finalized, I will post them here.

    Here is the D12 Race Schedule for 2010.
    May 14-16, Greensboro, NC
    June 4-6, Queenstown, MD
    June 25-27, Centreville, VA
    August 27-29, Chesapeake, VA
    September 24-26, Hagerstown, MD

    Other Races:
    Cheaspeake Bay Gas Clash: Queenstown, MD July 30-Aug 1st

    We have a new web master for the D12 web site. Hopefully it will be updated shortly.

    www.impba12.com/index.htm

    Thank you all for your encouragement, support and guidance.
    Special thanks to Doug Smock for his leadership.
    Great news Mike!
    Looks like they are afraid of getting their A$$e$ kicked with the added spec ESC rules. It looks like I will try Tim as a contact as I still have not heard back from Preston Hall at ODMBA, but it could be that they were busy getting ready for the meeting.
    IMPBA 20481S D-12

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    Actually Chuck, The guys that requested the rule change have FE tunnels and were more concerned with parity among the FE boats. I incorporated rules that they have run under at the Tunnel Championships in Charleston (mooched NAMBA rules).

    It's gonna be a great year !!!
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    Congratulations fellas, great news!!!!!

    Chuck nobody likes to get their butt handed to them by technology or some guys wallet.
    As long as you guys are competitive and NOT running over the top setups, you should have a good relationship with the nitro racers.
    Maybe I can make one of your races this year, that would be a hoot!

    Best of luck to you guys!!!!!!!!!! Now get some boats to the pond!!!!!!
    Again, good work!!!!!
    Doug
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    Congradulations, good job Mike. I'll have to try and get to the Greensboro event and watch you FE guys run.

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    Heyyyy...Great job Mike! You're the man!!

    Running a spec esc will be no problem. I think that having good driving skills will matter more than just having a fast boat...I like it!!

    Doug, it would be fantastic to see you at one of the dist. 12 races!!

    Let the trailblazing begin!!!!!!!

    -Kent
    "Will race for cookies!"
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    Dennis, I wasnt planning on going down to Greensboro, but a few of the electric tunnel racers are going to be there so I might just head on down there. I'll let you know.

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    Great work, Mike! Keep us posted on the progress you guys make for 2010.

    I'm sure the FE racers in Dist 12 recognize your efforts and that they themselves make the effort field FE boats at these events. The follow through is going to be critical as you guys are really in uncharted territory for 2010...and it's great to see it!
    Last edited by D. Newland; 03-02-2010 at 11:42 AM.

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    Thanks for the kind words David. It didnt take much effort. And I hope I will be an example for anyone who wants to get into FE racing where it isnt yet supported.

    Here is what will hopefully be the final draft of the FE rules that we will be running this year. Barring any strong objections which I do not anticipate, this will be it guys. It may be tweaked by the district during the year if any unforseen problems arise. We have to make some concessions to even out the playing field with the nitro guys. But we are getting three classes this year which is very generous considering there were only two FE boats running novice last year. Like David said in the previous post. The ball is in our court now. We more than got our foot in the door. IMO the future is looking bright, We already have 5 nitro/gas drivers that will be running FE hydro's and tunnels.


    Proposed D12 Open & FE/Nitro Combined Class Rules


    Sections in red are not part of the rule, but an explanation to district and club officers of why the rule is needed.

    1. All heats will be six laps unless specified in district race flyers. FE heats in Section J (Fast Electrics) are shorter. FE boaters need to know this so they can set up their boats for longer heats.

    2. All heat starts will be in accordance with IMPBA Rulebook, Section G, Heat Racing Rules. Race starts (pit time & clock time) in Section J have different procedures. We want to keep in line with the nitro rules as much as possible to make things easier for the CDs and host club.

    3. During a heat, a boat cannot stop for any reason. Doing so will result in being called a Dead Boat by the CD. A barrel roll, end over end flip or spin should not be called a dead boat as long as the boat continues in a forward motion. Racers shall respect the CD's judgment. When called a dead boat and the boat is capable of maneuvering, the racer shall hold his position until cleared by the CD. When cleared, the racer shall give way to all boats racing, then proceed directly to the infield and come to a stop behind the start buoy until the end of the heat. This rule is to reduce the advantage FE boats may have during situations that would lead to a stalled motor in a nitro boat. This is a modified version of the FE rules found in section J and is more stringent to level the playing field.

    4. At the end of a heat as a boat finishes, one of two methods may be used:
    A. A racer may choose to do a cool down lap and will continue all the way around the course before coming to shore.
    B. A racer may choose to park in the middle of the race course. After the racer finishes the heat, the racer shall give way to all other boats and when safe to do so, pull into the course infield. The racer shall come to a stop and hold his position until all boats on their cool down lap have returned to shore. Only then may the racer may bring their boat in. A boats electronic speed controller will build up more heat at partial throttle than at full throttle. The cool down lap after a heat can put additional strain on the ESC and possible destroy it. This is a modified version of the FE rules found in section J. Section J is geared toward FE only and says that the CD will pick one method for an end of race procedure. This is not an option when running combined classes.

    5. A qualified FE racer shall be designated to retrieve all dead boats after a heat if there is a dead FE boat on the pond.

    6. In the spirit of good sportsmanship, any FE boats having a noticeable speed advantage over the faster nitro boats will be asked to detune their boats to ensure competitive racing. If they do not comply, they shall be disqualified from the class for the race weekend.

    7. LiPo battery packs shall be charged on a flameproof surface such as a metal table, Pyrex Dish or Clay Pot. A dry fire extinguisher or extinguishing agent such as a bucket of sand shall be kept in all FE racers pit area or where batteries are being charged. LiPo packs got a bad rap when they first came into the RC world. Most mishaps occurred because people improperly handled them, abused them or continued to use damaged packs.

    8. FE "P" Spec Hydro/Tunnel Rules:
    A. Motor Specifications
    The intent of the P-Spec Motor Specifications is to define a motor and Electronic Speed Control (ESC) package to be used in Limited Spec class racing. Motors and ESCs in these specifications shall be based on readily available parts from past, current, and/or future Ready-to-Run offerings by various manufacturers. Only motors and ESCs on the approved motor list shall be allowed. Motors and ESCs may be mixed and matched amongst the approved parts as desired. Motors and ESCs are intended to be used as they are supplied. Therefore, no alterations or modifications are allowed, unless specifically stated in these rules. Motor shall be directly connected to the output drive shaft, no gear/belt over/under drives will be allowed.
    B. Approved Motors
    The motors approved for P-Spec racing are:
    ProBoat - PBR3310 A3630-1500 4 pole brushless motor (BJ26, Formula FastTech, Miss Elam FE)
    AquaCraft - AQUG7000 L36/56 7.2-18V 6 pole brushless motor (SV27), AQUG7001 36-56-2030 6 pole brushless motor (UL-1 Superior)
    C. Approved Electronic Speed Controls (ESC):
    The ESCs approved for P-Spec racing are:
    ProBoat - PBR3309 45 amp brushless ESC (BJ26, Formula FastTech, Miss Elam FE)
    AquaCraft - AQUM7010 AquaCraft 45 amp waterproof ESC (SV27), AQUM7011 AquaCraft 60 amp water cooled/proof ESC (UL-1 Superior)
    D. Cooling: Motors and ESCs may be cooled as desired. Water jackets, cooling plates, electronic fans, etc., may be added as desired, so long as they don't perform an otherwise illegal function.
    E. Contacts and Wiring: Originally supplied contacts may be replaced. Wire length on the power and phase leads may be altered to facilitate installation. If lengthening the original wires, additional wire may be added to the factory supplied wires. If shortening the original wires, the final contact to the Motor or ESC must be made using the original wiring. The intent of this rule is to prevent the removal and replacement of the original wiring in its entirety, by requiring that the final contact to the Motor or ESC be made by the original wiring.
    F. Capacitors: Extra Capacitors may be used to protect the speed controller from ripple current.
    G. Battery: Any amount and/or size of motors, any endbell, bearings, and magnets. Power Limits: 10.1 to 15 Volts nominal, any chemistry. Maximum of 2 packs in parallel. Maximum capacity of 10,000 mAh
    H. Hull: In P-Spec Tunnel Class only Outboard Tunnel Hulls may be used.

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    Looks great Mike and seems to be more than fair.
    IMPBA 20481S D-12

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    The only thing I would add to #3 is a safety precaution, that if the FE boat is pointing into on coming traffic the FE boat is allowed to stop and wait until the oncoming traffic goes safely by the FE Boat. Then the boat can proceed to turn around and re enter the race.

    In district 9 NAMBA we also give a 5 second count in case of a thermal shut down. Unless you impede a moving boat then it is a disqualification.
    Randy
    For ABS, Fiberglass, Carbon hulls and Stainless hardware
    BBY Racing

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    Thats a tough one Randy. We're trying to even up the playing field with the nitro guys. I hope our drivers will use good judgement and take the DNF rather than risk smacking another boat. We're in uncharted territory and will wear out our welcome real quick if we dont use our noggins.

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    While running a brushless motor, we typically remove the motor decal to install a water jacket correct? What's to stop someone from getting one of these Ammo 36-56-2600 and passing it off as a UL-1 spec motor 36-56-2030? Both are the same gold color, both are the exact same dimensions. How would one know? Shouldn't there be more validation for this?
    "A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough."
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Bruce Lee. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nautiboyz View Post
    Thats a tough one Randy. We're trying to even up the playing field with the nitro guys. I hope our drivers will use good judgement and take the DNF rather than risk smacking another boat. We're in uncharted territory and will wear out our welcome real quick if we dont use our noggins.
    I race with the nitro guys all the time. I really want to make it evan too. I was looking at your rules to take part of them and write ones for my district.

    Ya know with a nitro or gas boat they do not die every time they flip or do something weird. We have a 5 second rule if we stop for any reason we have 5 seconds to get going or it is a DNF.

    My thought is to take the basic rules we have in FE Racing and blend them.
    Randy
    For ABS, Fiberglass, Carbon hulls and Stainless hardware
    BBY Racing

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    Randy, I really like the 5 second rule! When I used to run my glow boats, they would sometimes go completely under the water and come up seemingly dead but gurgling and then come right back alive...Great point out!! I think there should be a given time to get your boat collected....

    Mike....?

    -Kent
    "Will race for cookies!"
    IMPBA D12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diegoboy View Post
    While running a brushless motor, we typically remove the motor decal to install a water jacket correct? What's to stop someone from getting one of these Ammo 36-56-2600 and passing it off as a UL-1 spec motor 36-56-2030? Both are the same gold color, both are the exact same dimensions. How would one know? Shouldn't there be more validation for this?


    Either it's already being done and it's a touchy subject, or it's an incredibly stupid question. I hope for the latter.
    "A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough."
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Bruce Lee. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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    Guys, there is no douby we're bending over backwards to address all concerns brought up buy the nitro guys. But considering my son and I were the only FE's in the district last year and despite some nitro racers feeling like they're being squeezed out, we are getting 3 FE classes next year. I feel the district has been more than generous to us. As David said, we're breaking new ground and I think we need to do everything we can to prevent conflicts and animosity. There are still advantages FE's will have over the nitro boats. FE's don't come off pipe. FE's don't flood when they cross a roostertail. And from what I see FE's seem to have more punch off the starting line when the buzzer goes off. I consider this a transitional year and I have no idea what the future brings. But I'm feeling pretty confident. We already have four nitro racers who will be running tunnels this year and two that will be running hydro's.

    Randy, I'll be interested in taking a look at the rules you come up with. And I'll let you guys know what problems we encounter as the year progresses.

    Danny, Someone briefly brought up tech inspections at the district meeting and no one saw the need for it. These guys have been racing a long time and are great guys, but if they notice a boat noticably outperforming the others, they will not hesitate to jump on that drivers behind.

    Mike

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    That's one good thing about "Limited" setups. If a guy is cheating a flag will be raised. You should be able to hear the difference between those two motors.
    Danny is it too late to send that 36-56-2600 back??LOL

    Once you guys get going this DNF thing should work itself out. IME the CDs at dist. races are pretty forgiving.
    Concentrate on getting on the clock and holding your line.
    Watch the heats you are not running in. Pay attention to the guy who gets on the clock and wins races. Get to know him, and ask him to be your pitman if he's not busy. A good pitman makes a BIG difference, and will make you a better racer.

    Sorry for rambling, I just want ALL of you guys to do well.
    Doug
    TOY BOAT RACER
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Smock View Post
    Once you guys get going this DNF thing should work itself out. IME the CDs at dist. races are pretty forgiving. Doug
    I agree, the CD's know you spend alot of time, effort and money to come to their race and they want to let you run. Even if they take a little heat for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Smock View Post
    Danny is it too late to send that 36-56-2600 back??LOL
    Doug
    Yes it is. No worries though, I have special sound dampening mats inside my hull that are specifically designed to alter the frequency of any high rev motor to a much lower freq. It is said to match the sound of any lower rev motor with the proper fomula of density.

    It's very simple really
    = UL-1 motor sound

    See??
    "A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough."
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Bruce Lee. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diegoboy View Post
    Yes it is. No worries though, I have special sound dampening mats inside my hull that are specifically designed to alter the frequency of any high rev motor to a much lower freq. It is said to match the sound of any lower rev motor with the proper fomula of density.

    It's very simple really
    = UL-1 motor sound

    See??

    Well done sir!!
    TOY BOAT RACER
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

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    That is hilarious!!! And coming from the one person who would never bend the rules as long as he's aware of them.

    On a side note, I'm trying to get in touch with a buddy who received a SV27 motor as part of collective generosity to help him get on the water. With any luck, I'll be able to swap his motor out for a new one that's more appropriate for his setup and have a spec motor for the races.


    So, no catamarans this year? Did I read that right? Oh well, I guess it will have to be exhibition only.
    IMPBA: 7-Time FE World Record Holder "Don't think outside the box. Rather, refuse to admit that the box exists in the first place!"

    MGM Controllers - Giant Power Lipos - ML Boatworks - Wholt's Wire Drives & Struts - Nano-Oil

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    So Danny how does that work exactly?

    Does it resonate at one of the lower frequency harmonics?
    IMPBA 20481S D-12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meniscus View Post
    That is hilarious!!! And coming from the one person who would never bend the rules as long as he's aware of them.

    On a side note, I'm trying to get in touch with a buddy who received a SV27 motor as part of collective generosity to help him get on the water. With any luck, I'll be able to swap his motor out for a new one that's more appropriate for his setup and have a spec motor for the races.


    So, no catamarans this year? Did I read that right? Oh well, I guess it will have to be exhibition only.
    Awesome Ben! Do you already have an AC esc to use?

    Danny...you crack me up!!

    -Kent
    "Will race for cookies!"
    IMPBA D12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOTWATER View Post
    ...Do you already have an AC esc to use?...
    I have a PB one. Are we going to allow mix and match?

    And BTW, the frequency oscillates with harmonics with inverted phase. As you can see from the picture, as the original sound wave crests and wanes, the out of phase signal negates the additional amplitude and as this phase is shifted, the original frequency harmonics are shift to resonate lower. Just read up on Pythagoras and his 'music of the spheres' as well as other theories. When a string is split in half, you get an octave, in thirds you get a perfect 5th, and so on and so forth. If you apply this reasoning as you adjust the phase, you can cause a different, lower harmonic to resonate more prominently than the primary since the primary is canceled out. You know I'm just kidding with ya, but it is true!!!
    IMPBA: 7-Time FE World Record Holder "Don't think outside the box. Rather, refuse to admit that the box exists in the first place!"

    MGM Controllers - Giant Power Lipos - ML Boatworks - Wholt's Wire Drives & Struts - Nano-Oil

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    "I have a PB one. Are we going to allow mix and match?"


    ....Yes, you should be fine as long as it is a spec esc and spec motor...

    -Kent
    "Will race for cookies!"
    IMPBA D12
    My Gallery: https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/album.php?u=1738

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    I can't get my formula to work... Plan B

    WTB:
    UL-1 Motor decal. In good condition, you pay shipping please.
    "A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough."
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Bruce Lee. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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    I have received my registration for ODMBA.
    IMPBA 20481S D-12

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    Excellant.

    I got your props today. Nice job as always. I'm going to send you a X440 next week if thats okay. It will be my "dont spank the nitro" detune special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nautiboyz View Post
    Excellant.

    I got your props today. Nice job as always. I'm going to send you a X440 next week if thats okay. It will be my "dont spank the nitro" detune special.
    An X440 ... sounds to me like you are giving away the race?

    I think you may have some cavitation problems.
    IMPBA 20481S D-12

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