P-Spec Motors

[Hydromaniac]

Since clubs are all going different directions and these aren't official classes anyway, we aren't going to run them at nationals next summer right?

Brian I am not sure I understand your question can you be more specific , "them" what rules or classes are you refering to?

[Hydromaniac]

From section 6 A of the NAMBA rule book.

3. To be classified as a Nationals a diversified selection of classes will be presented, which will adequately offer as many nationally approved classes that can be run during the event. Emphasis will be made on the classes which are popular in the area/district in which that Nationals is held.

If we are going to use the rule book, we should probably use all of it.

Help me out here, what is your point? I missed something that brought the 2010 FE Nats classes in to this conversation. If we use "all" of the rule book we would have to run 700 motors in spec classes as that is how the rule book reads at this point in time. Just trying to get a clear direction of whats in question so that as the CD I can give you a clear answer.

[Hydromaniac]

Brian Not sure but let me see if I can give some light on the "P" spec classes that we are planning for the nats. This is only for P spec as that is the topic of the thread.
OPC
OFF SHORE LSO(4 MINUTE MARATHON)
HYDRO
SPORT HYDRO LSH/SSH
CRACKERBOX( EXHIBITION IF FILLED)
As per P class, hulls can be no longer then 34 inches, Motors allowed will be 700 /brushed, PB Black Jack 26, AQ SV-27 and AQ UL-1. No esc restriction. 4s (14.8)volts 10000 MAH max No paralelling limit. This is the plan for "P spec classes at this time. If any changes happen ( Which I doubt) We will get the information out in plenty of time. Hope this helps.

[T.S.Davis]

Since clubs are all going different directions and these aren't official classes anyway, we aren't going to run them at nationals next summer right?

Define FE nationals. Technically it's not even in the book. It's one race with all the fuel sources at one event.

Just call them exhibition classes for your race Rod. Make sure you toss the rule set for P spec into your announcement somewhere.

Clubs can do like Morris County and Puget and do what they want but once you travel you need to be on the same page as your hosts. Eventually we'll get all this figured out. The actual rule book will read like we want so that there will be no need to stress about what we'll find when we get to a race. In theory of course.

[Jeff Wohlt]

Don't get me wrong but...you all should have this post in the club forums.

[Norman2]

Brian Not sure but let me see if I can give some light on the "P" spec classes that we are planning for the nats. This is only for P spec as that is the topic of the thread.
OPC
OFF SHORE LSO(4 MINUTE MARATHON)
HYDRO
SPORT HYDRO LSH/SSH
CRACKERBOX( EXHIBITION IF FILLED)
As per P class, hulls can be no longer then 34 inches, Motors allowed will be 700 /brushed, PB Black Jack 26, AQ SV-27 and AQ UL-1. No esc restriction. 4s (14.8)volts 10000 MAH max No paralelling limit. This is the plan for "P spec classes at this time. If any changes happen ( Which I doubt) We will get the information out in plenty of time. Hope this helps.

That is the perfect rule to follow for Spec Class. Our club has identical rules and
it is the class where we have more entries and more fun. I think that talking about
adding more motors is non productive. Just my comments. Regards
Norman

[Doug Smock]

[Darin Jordan]

HAHAHAHahahahHAHAHAHAHahahaha!!!

[raptor347]

Brian Not sure but let me see if I can give some light on the "P" spec classes that we are planning for the nats. This is only for P spec as that is the topic of the thread.
OPC
OFF SHORE LSO(4 MINUTE MARATHON)
HYDRO
SPORT HYDRO LSH/SSH
CRACKERBOX( EXHIBITION IF FILLED)
As per P class, hulls can be no longer then 34 inches, Motors allowed will be 700 /brushed, PB Black Jack 26, AQ SV-27 and AQ UL-1. No esc restriction. 4s (14.8)volts 10000 MAH max No paralelling limit. This is the plan for "P spec classes at this time. If any changes happen ( Which I doubt) We will get the information out in plenty of time. Hope this helps.

Rod,
Thanks! That's just what we needed. This in essence is the official national rule for P-spec. It's what will be run at nationals for 2010.

Terry,
Yes, I know there are huge holes in the book. Probably better than most.

[sailr]

PERFECT! In my opinion we need to keep it right there! NO MORE MOTOR additions. If a club wants to open it up to other motors, that's up to them to run as a 'club class' but as far as the National rules, it needs to stay right where you have listed it.

Brian Not sure but let me see if I can give some light on the "P" spec classes that we are planning for the nats. This is only for P spec as that is the topic of the thread.
OPC
OFF SHORE LSO(4 MINUTE MARATHON)
HYDRO
SPORT HYDRO LSH/SSH
CRACKERBOX( EXHIBITION IF FILLED)
As per P class, hulls can be no longer then 34 inches, Motors allowed will be 700 /brushed, PB Black Jack 26, AQ SV-27 and AQ UL-1. No esc restriction. 4s (14.8)volts 10000 MAH max No paralelling limit. This is the plan for "P spec classes at this time. If any changes happen ( Which I doubt) We will get the information out in plenty of time. Hope this helps.

[Littlescreamers]

I find this very unfair?? I have spend mass time and money to bring new water jacketed outrunner motors to the market and now you tell me they will not allow it to run in the races?? GREAT! I know it can be ran in the unlimited class but Man, I hope this is just for stock classes.

Scott

[Hydromaniac]

I find this very unfair?? I have spend mass time and money to bring new water jacketed outrunner motors to the market and now you tell me they will not allow it to run in the races?? GREAT! I know it can be ran in the unlimited class but Man, I hope this is just for stock classes.

Scott

This conversation and class discussion is only about the current "P"spec class and does not pertain to other classes. The motors can still be ran in several other classes.

[sailr]

Scott,
Chill. Only talking about the current P Spec classes. Nothing to keep anyone from using your motors in other classes. I applaude you for your efforts. The outrunners are certainly on everyone's mind and will find great success in a myriad of applications....just not the current P Spec classes. K?

Jim

I find this very unfair?? I have spend mass time and money to bring new water jacketed outrunner motors to the market and now you tell me they will not allow it to run in the races?? GREAT! I know it can be ran in the unlimited class but Man, I hope this is just for stock classes.

Scott

[BILL OXIDEAN]

From section 6 A of the NAMBA rule book.

3. To be classified as a Nationals a diversified selection of classes will be presented, which will adequately offer as many nationally approved classes that can be run during the event. Emphasis will be made on the classes which are popular in the area/district in which that Nationals is held.

If we are going to use the rule book, we should probably use all of it.

I'm behind this statement.

[BILL OXIDEAN]

Please don't take this the wrong way, because i do applaud your testing and desire to keep things right. But if you truly want a spec class. A single spec motor should be considered. Otherwise you run into differences in power. For instance, look at Tony's testing of the Scorpion motor. With one esc it ran just ok, with another it came alive. There really isn't time in the world to test each setup and setting to make sure they are all the same.

Steve, that is SO true!!! Any half technical sanction would laugh all night at the idea of a sanction "speking" motors of different wind, length, and magnet constructions

How are you gonna spec a 2-pole motor with a 6? LoL..

A spec motor like a ROAR stock or 19-turn have all the same length, diameter, magnet size, and wind. Yes, there are many choices from different mfgrs, but they all fall under the same strict guidelines

THERES NO WAY MOTORS OF DIFFERENT WINDS ARE SPEC PERIOD!!!!!

Spec stuff is great for club races, but the nats need to showcase all of NAMBA's wonderful sanctioned classes.

LSH, LSO are already a staple in our programs, but as much as I love the spec classes and have done well with them, I think that 5 exibition classes crammed into an already hectic race schedule is not an affective use of time.

[Hydromaniac]

Steve, that is SO true!!! Any half technical sanction would laugh all night at the idea of a sanction "speking" motors of different wind, length, and magnet constructions

How are you gonna spec a 2-pole motor with a 6? LoL..

A spec motor like a ROAR stock or 19-turn have all the same length, diameter, magnet size, and wind. Yes, there are many choices from different mfgrs, but they all fall under the same strict guidelines

THERES NO WAY MOTORS OF DIFFERENT WINDS ARE SPEC PERIOD!!!!!

Spec stuff is great for club races, but the nats need to showcase all of NAMBA's wonderful sanctioned classes.

LSH, LSO are already a staple in our programs, but as much as I love the spec classes and have done well with them, I think that 5 exibition classes crammed into an already hectic race schedule is not an affective use of time.

IMO These are the classes with the largest turnout of racers in the past and are the most popular as well as what is mostly raced in this area so, as per the rules, emphasis should be placed in those areas correct? This is only one power group and there will be other Classes as well.

[Hydromaniac]

Not sure how but this thread is heading towards a discussion of the 2010 FE Nationals and that is off topic of the original thread. We have a plan for the Nationals and the classes that will be ran. So there will be information forthcoming as things get finalized, This information will be presented in 2010 FE Nationals driven threads, discussion and corespondence.

[Littlescreamers]

Thanks you for clearing this up :D I was worried there for a sec. I want to bring new powerful and inexpensive water jacketed outrunners to you all for sport and racing.

Thanks again.

Scott

[Darin Jordan]

A spec motor like a ROAR stock or 19-turn have all the same length, diameter, magnet size, and wind. Yes, there are many choices from different mfgrs, but they all fall under the same strict guidelines

This pretty much what I'm trying to get at here... Basic parameters are currently:

Can Length: 50-56mm
Can Diameter: 36mm
Weight: Maximum 8oz
KV: 1500-2050KV
Power: 600W continuous
Amps: 50A continuous
Poles: 6

That's still a LOT of range, and those are just rough numbers for power... but that's what we currently have spec'd, and depending on the application, they seem to play together OK...

In my opinion, the UL-1 motor is still an outlier, but we've seen that, while it has more KV, it can't swing as big a prop as the others, so things balance out depending on the package you put together (hull and power system)...

I think when you start trying to stuff 2-poles, or Outrunners into the mix, you no longer have a "spec" class... you have P-Lite, and that's not what this was suppose to be about...

[Grimracer]

[Littlescreamers]

The motors will only produce the watts depending on the amps drawn and the volts used! So if you used a scorpion or an ammo, at 14.8V and it drew 50A, the watts are EXACTLY the same as the SV and the UL1, 740.

The watt ratings you see are only the MAX they can produce, not what they actually put out. What they put our depends on the volts and amps.

This is a very true statement!
Scott

[properchopper]

A note on trusting "specs" : There are sooo many ways "specs" can be arrived at. A good example of how specs can be misleading is in the stereo industry. One amplifier can be rated at 300 watts. This measurement is done at 1K Hz with 5%
THD. Another is rated at 50 watts, but at 20-20K Hz with less than .05 THD. The second rating is known as RMS (root mean square)watts. In this case the 50 watt amp is a better performing unit. This is still common, especially with cheap home or car stereos. Before trusting motor power ratings such as "continuous" or "max", the testing methods, and of critical importance the definition(s) of what constitutes "continuous" and "max" and many other parameters need to be known to make sure that they are the same. I doubt that they are.
Realistically, the # of poles, weight, KV, and physical dimensions can provide some realistically relevent ways to determine parity. The power ratings, which are really the bottom-line comparator, may not accurately reflect such parity.
Please understand that I'm all for spec racing (and the rules for fairness). I applaud all the efforts and concern to make this a bigger part of the sport and personally am gratefull to everyone that strives to push it foward.

[Ub Hauled]

Can I have an "amen" for Mr. T-Bone?!

[properchopper]

Can I have an "amen" for Mr. T-Bone?!

Thanks Bro, I knew you, as an Audio Engineer, would understand !!

[Doug Smock]

You're in good company.

Doug

PS Steven, better pop some more.

[Ub Hauled]

You're in good company.

Doug

PS Steven, better pop some more.

Doug, don't hog the popcorn, pass it over dude!

[raptor347]

LSH, LSO are already a staple in our programs, but as much as I love the spec classes and have done well with them, I think that 5 exibition classes crammed into an already hectic race schedule is not an affective use of time.

Will,
Remember that LSH and LSO haven't officially been run as they appear in the rule book since 2006. The 2007 nats ran them as unoffical classes because they ran with LiPos before they were officialy legal. The 2008 nats ran with P-spec power rather than the legal brushed 700's. 2009 again ran P-spec power and LSO magicly became a 4 minute race instead of 10 laps. So in essence, those classes haven't actually been run for the last 3 seasons. We should stop using the class names for something they aren't.

Plus, there were 7 exhibition classes at the nats in 2009, the 4 spec classes plus production, ultimate offshore and sprint. Backing it down to 5 will be an improvement.

[Ctonez]

Honestly, I was originally surprised we allowed the UL-1 motors in the same class as the BJ and SV27 motors. In certain hulls, however, I have seen the SV motor be right on par with the UL-1 motor when propped right for the application.
I'm sure the thought of Brian re-outfitting his fleet is alarming, but that simply means that we should test and reconsider before including it with our other spec motors.
Was it a hasty decision? maybe, but we are at club level and not bound by this vote.
More research is necessary for sure, thanks for your work so far Darin.

I run SV motors, because I have so many and don't NEED any replacements yet, but when I do, as Greg mentioned, I won't be gettin an SV motor. I'll get whatever gets me the most bang for buck, which hopefully will be a tough decision due to parity...so I would be disappointed if the 1800kv Ammo whomps butt, but would probably get one if we allow it, so I get the point.

I am, however, completely with Greg on the point that this should not be continued online. Call me anytime, or let's dicuss it via club email.

[Ctonez]

This pretty much what I'm trying to get at here... Basic parameters are currently:

Can Length: 50-56mm
Can Diameter: 36mm
Weight: Maximum 8oz
KV: 1500-2050KV
Power: 600W continuous
Amps: 50A continuous
Poles: 6

So to appease those that want more selection, what, if any other motors fall into this range? ...I guess that's the big Q.
Doesn't price deserve to be a parameter since it helps define the spec further?

Another concern is supply longevity. We've seen periods of more demand than supply in the past, is there anything that can be done to assure the approved motors are around and plentiful for awhile? Maybe the popcorn eaters can answer that one...

[raptor347]

Cory,
Don't worry about the motors. I've talked to the AC guys about supply (I'm pretty sure Darin has talked to the ProBoat guys). The run on motors was a suprise. They stocked enough to support the product they were supplied in, not expecting them to be used in most of the race boats built that summer. They are aware of the demand now, with no plan to stop building them in the near future.

I have an interesting question: Why is the cost of the motor so important but nobody cares if you use a $250+ ESC? For that matter, how about battery price (40C thunder power packs for spec )?

Last season I ran UL-1 motors in rigger, tunnel, sport hydro, BJ26 in the mono. UL-1 escs with an added capacitor. $86 4S 4100 mah 25C Neu cells. No failures and better than average performance. Maybe the motor is the least of the concerns for the spec class.