HealthFear Only In America!

[Darin Jordan]

You DO oppose everything Obama does! You are so obvious it is laughable. I am not making anything up. You thought everything Bush did was just dandy and yet he lied to you on a regular basis. You are so entrenched into the hatred and misinformation from the Right, the GOP that you are totally blinded. You are like arguing with a rock! Nuf sed.

YOU are COMPLETELY out of your mind... and your head is DEEPLY entrenched... in the SAND! But then, you're a Lib... so that explains a lot...

[domwilson]

part duo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fevga...er_profilepage

They definitely show that the public educational system has failed. We need Healthcare reform to help some of these people get their meds.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin are you talking to me ,

Peter.... No, not really directed at you... just at the topic in general...

The LEFT seems to think that if we don't just go head long into THEIR ideas, that we are racist, and "against anything Obama"... oh, and I guess FOR everything Bush... which is a crock of crap....

But it's a waste of time to argue with people who are entrenched in ideals, and can't comprehend reality, facts, or figures... and historic record, for that matter, and distort everything to fit their ideals...

I've said my peace on this matter... good enough...

[Darin Jordan]

They definitely show that the public educational system has failed.

You'll LOVE this development then...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...grades16m.html

Another BRILLIANT Seattle-Liberal idea...

[domwilson]

You'll LOVE this development then...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...grades16m.html

Another BRILLIANT Seattle-Liberal idea...

Makes that movie "Idiocracy" prophetic. Scarey stuff.

[Flying Scotsman]

Will someone in very plain language and one sentence explain why you do not want universal health care for your citizens?

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

Will someone in very plain language and one sentence explain why you do not want universal health care for your citizens?

Douggie

That's kind of funny, Douggie... It's a 8" thick, 1000+ page bill... not sure a one-sentence summary would be possible...

[domwilson]

Douggie,

Here is why... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0

[Darin Jordan]

Douggie,

Here is why... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0

As long as the left keeps discounting the REAL and valid concerns from the right, we'll never get anywhere...

The numbers... THEY ARE REAL! Deal with that how you will, but ignoring them isn't a good solution...

As an example... the "First time home buyers" housing credit program that Obama put into place has already cost the country TWICE what they originally projected... 15-BILLION $$$... To give people who were going to buy a house anyhow a bunch of our money... Same with the "Cash for Clunkers" deal...

When they are projecting that this "Reform" will cost 1-Trillion $$$... It's a provable FACT that it's going to cost more... it ALWAYS DOES!

[domwilson]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5230656.shtml

[Flying Scotsman]

That's kind of funny, Douggie... It's a 8" thick, 1000+ page bill... not sure a one-sentence summary would be possible...

Darin, it is easy what do you not like about universal health care

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, it is easy what do you not like about universal health care

Douggie

OK Douggie... I know this is a Trojan Horse question... like bait used by the rabid LEFT... but I'll bite...


HIGHER COSTS, LOWER SERVICES, RATIONED HEALTHCARE, REDUCED/NO FREEDOM OF CHOICE, GOVERNMENT CONTROL OVER WHO GETS WHAT...

That's enough right there, but the list goes on...

People thinking that ANYTHING will be run better and/or will be less expensive when run by the Government, is in deep, DEEP denial of the facts and of history and of the present and of many, many things...

[domwilson]

Been doing some reading.
Here is a site with some interesting info.
http://www.allhealth.org/

http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...sured_me_17639

[Darin Jordan]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5230656.shtml

"Squeeze savings out of Medicare and Medicaid "

Like I said before... if there is 500-BILLION in savings in Medicare/Medicaid fraud and waste cleanup... Let them do that FIRST, before they come to me and tell me they need more $$$...

Same goes for the rest of this...

That's been the point all along!

And

"But as negotiators look for ways to trim health reform's trillion-dollar price tag, the more than $700 billion that's earmarked for subsidies could come under scrutiny. "

$700-BILLION in earmarked subsidies... How about those come under scrutiny NOW!!

The real goal here is getting lost in the rhetoric... Are we trying to REDUCE healthcare costs, or increase the Governements power??? Because you aren't going to be able to do both!

By the way... what was it the Government spent??? Something like 5-Billion $$$ on Cash for Clunkers (administration, etc...) to save $300,000 worth of gas...

[domwilson]

OK Douggie... I know this is a Trojan Horse question... like bait used by the rabid LEFT... but I'll bite...


HIGHER COSTS, LOWER SERVICES, RATIONED HEALTHCARE, REDUCED/NO FREEDOM OF CHOICE, GOVERNMENT CONTROL OVER WHO GETS WHAT...

That's enough right there, but the list goes on...

People thinking that ANYTHING will be run better and/or will be less expensive when run by the Government, is in deep, DEEP denial of the facts and of history and of the present and of many, many things...

Darin, You are aware that they are making changes to the current bill?
The higher costs, lowered services, Rationed Healthcare are pretty much what prompted the desire for Healthcare reform.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, You are aware that they are making changes to the current bill?

You have WAY too much faith in the Government, Dom... Sorry, but I don't share your trust of these guys...

People want to blame Bush and Clinton and Obama for stuff... but let's not forget... it's the people in Congress and the Senate, many of which have been there through ALL of this, that are to blame for MOST of these events...

You can't really expect Barney Frank, Pelosi, Reid, Hatch, Rangle, or any of the rest of them, to actually do the RIGHT thing here?? THEY caused this mess... and now you think THEY are going to get us out???

Seriously???

[Flying Scotsman]

OK Douggie... I know this is a Trojan Horse question... like bait used by the rabid LEFT... but I'll bite...


HIGHER COSTS, LOWER SERVICES, RATIONED HEALTHCARE, REDUCED/NO FREEDOM OF CHOICE, GOVERNMENT CONTROL OVER WHO GETS WHAT...

That's enough right there, but the list goes on...

People thinking that ANYTHING will be run better and/or will be less expensive when run by the Government, is in deep, DEEP denial of the facts and of history and of the present and of many, many things...

A great response, yes higher costs via taxes..lower services possible...freedom of choice, as long you are insurred and that party will pay for the procedure. Government control...NO ...You are entitled to all medical procedures.

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

A great response, yes higher costs via taxes..lower services possible...freedom of choice, as long you are insurred and that party will pay for the procedure. Government control...NO ...You are entitled to all medical procedures.

Douggie

Douggie... Like I said... it's WAY too complicated to go into in one sentance... I'll summarize this by just saying... I don't agree with parts of your response... Especially the Governement control part... History is not on your side... not in this country, anyhow... Once everyone is on a Governement healthcare system (in other words, the Governement has driven out all the private firms or controls them through stiff regulations), then they will tell you who you can see, when you can see them, and what they are allowed to do...

[domwilson]

You have WAY too much faith in the Government, Dom... Sorry, but I don't share your trust of these guys...

People want to blame Bush and Clinton and Obama for stuff... but let's not forget... it's the people in Congress and the Senate, many of which have been there through ALL of this, that are to blame for MOST of these events...

You can't really expect Barney Frank, Pelosi, Reid, Hatch, Rangle, or any of the rest of them, to actually do the RIGHT thing here?? THEY caused this mess... and now you think THEY are going to get us out???

Seriously???

Actually I have very little faith in the government. But I have even lesser faith in a system that operates the way our healthcare system operates now. The industry is full of problems and is out of control. Have we forgotten the lessons learned from the financial institutions debacle?

[Flying Scotsman]

Douggie... Like I said... it's WAY too complicated to go into in one sentance... I'll summarize this by just saying... I don't agree with parts of your response... Especially the Governement control part... History is not on your side... not in this country, anyhow... Once everyone is on a Governement healthcare system (in other words, the Governement has driven out all the private firms or controls them through stiff regulations), then they will tell you who you can see, when you can see them, and what they are allowed to do...

Darin, wrong up here in the frozen north, most companies offer an insurrance package for dental, drugs, foreign travel, etc. I am only reffering to basic health coverage, and you can see a medical specialist of your choice and they will instruct the correct procedure

Douggie

[domwilson]

Douggie... Like I said... it's WAY too complicated to go into in one sentance... I'll summarize this by just saying... I don't agree with parts of your response... Especially the Governement control part... History is not on your side... not in this country, anyhow... Once everyone is on a Governement healthcare system (in other words, the Governement has driven out all the private firms or controls them through stiff regulations), then they will tell you who you can see, when you can see them, and what they are allowed to do...

Has that happened in ALL other countries with universal healthcare?

[domwilson]

For the record. I am not for HR 3200 in it's current form. I am for Healthcare reform. I entertain suggestions from both sides. Newt Gingrich has some very good ideas. But I do think that as the richest nation on earth, that we should provide healthcare coverage to all U.S. citizens. The best way to do that is to stop wasting money on politically driven earmarks and projects. Put the focus back on domestic policies. Pull out of Iraq. Accomplish the goals in Afghanistan and stop dingle doodling around.

[Flying Scotsman]

Dom, in a few sentences what does the bill propose? and why is the bill as Darin mentioned 1000 pages long...sounds pretty simple to me.

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

I am for Healthcare reform. I entertain suggestions from both sides. Newt Gingrich has some very good ideas. But I do think that as the richest nation on earth, that we should provide healthcare coverage to all U.S. citizens. The best way to do that is to stop wasting money on politically driven earmarks and projects. Put the focus back on domestic policies. Pull out of Iraq. Accomplish the goals in Afghanistan and stop dingle doodling around.

Dom,

We are on the same page, then... The biggest difference I see is that I prefer to have Governement regulated FREE MARKET solutions that allow for private companies to operate under a set of fair and balanced rules/guidelines... and I don't want the Governement owning any of it... They have other things to do...

The experiment right now with GM, and the former "exeriments" with Amtrak, the Post Office, and any number of other Governement owned/operated enterprises are proof that they can't even run an even ship...

[domwilson]

There is not strong enough wording to prevent illegal aliens from getting coverage.
There are provisions to create "panels" to advise congress in making changes on the fly to the reform.
The wording can lead to private insurers being pushed out of the market as they don't have deep enough pockets to compete with the goverment.
The bill should be broken down into separate legislative actions rather than being so broadly based.
Too complex in reading. Needs simpler, easier to understand language.

There is more. But I haven't finished reading the whole thing.

[domwilson]

Dom,

We are on the same page, then... The biggest difference I see is that I prefer to have Governement regulated FREE MARKET solutions that allow for private companies to operate under a set of fair and balanced rules/guidelines... and I don't want the Governement owning any of it... They have other things to do...

The experiment right now with GM, and the former "exeriments" with Amtrak, the Post Office, and any number of other Governement owned/operated enterprises are proof that they can't even run an even ship...

For the most part we are in agreement. I would like to see a government option but with a different set of guidelines to minimize employers from jumping ship to a government run system. Maybe the government run system will only accept individual policies and companies with a certain number employees must carry a private insurer?

I have another suggestion here.. https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...ad.php?t=10242

Either way, private insurers must have a market to operate in just in case the government program is not up to the individuals expectations. So you see, there is choice.

[Darin Jordan]

So you see, there is choice.

More like "could be"... there isn't anything yet...

But none of this really addresses the actual COSTS of the healthcare... To do that, you need to get very serious about:

1) TORT reform... Liability insurance costs are rediculous
2) DRUG costs... The drug companies are in bed with the Government... and WAY too much corruption, as well as red-tape...
3) Lack of portability of Insurance
4) Lack of competition due to state-line restrictions
5) Etc....

[domwilson]

More like "could be"... there isn't anything yet...

But none of this really addresses the actual COSTS of the healthcare... To do that, you need to get very serious about:

1) TORT reform... Liability insurance costs are rediculous
2) DRUG costs... The drug companies are in bed with the Government... and WAY too much corruption, as well as red-tape...
3) Lack of portability of Insurance
4) Lack of competition due to state-line restrictions
5) Etc....

1.) On tort reform. Yes. and criminalize gross negligence in cases of loss of limb or life.
2.) Drug costs- Most Definitely. The drug companies are getting paid thru government subsidies, charities, and higher costs to Americans when the same drugs are cheaper everywhere else.
3.) Portability...if you mean insurance accepted at all institutions, yes.
4.)State line restrictions can be removed it companies abide by federally mandated regulations.
5.) Etc. Heavy penalties, fines, prison for intentional fraud. Institutions can only bill one paying entity. No more billing the insurance company, patient and government for the same claim. Transparency of costs up front. Provide estimates of service. No more "bill shock." A Healthcare provider rating service. To help consumers make a better choice in who they select for service and to help improve quality of service. Would you go to a provider that has a low rating?

[RCprince]

[rockwerks]

It just gets better and better MORONS

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/16/news...ion=2009091619