Namba Voting for Modification and Additions for Electric 1/8 Scale Unlimited Hydro"

Before I vote Id like to hear the props and cons to this.

Proposal 4 - Modification and addition of rules for Electric 1/8 Scale Unlimited Hydroplane in Section 28 - Electric.

Reasoning:

Current rule:
E. SPECIALITY CLASSES
6. ELECTRIC 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE
b. Motor Specifications
i) Power parameters for this class shall comply with class "T" specifications, as noted in rule D.1.a in this section
Note: “T” specs = Any amount and/or size of motors / 18.50 - 42.30 Volts / 12000 MaH max

Proposed rule:
E. SPECIALITY CLASSES
6. ELECTRIC 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE
b. Power Specifications
i) Approved Motors
(a) NEU 1527 1.5Y 850KV
(b) HET Typhoon 700-98 840KV
(c) Turnigy SK3-3994 850KV
ii) Twin motors are not allowed.
c. Drivetrain Specifications
i) Either a cable or hard shafts may be used, no gear boxes allowed.
ii) Any propeller may be used up to maximum of 57mm in diameter.
d. Electronic Speed Controls (ESC)
i) Any ESC may be used as long as it is rated to a minimum 130 Amps and rated to handle a minimum of 8S battery configuration.
ii) Anti-spark resistors are advised on all speed controllers.
e. Batteries
i) A maximum capacity of 8S Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries are allowed. The maximum mAh capacity of the battery pack(s) will not exceed 6000 mAh. Only LiPo batteries with a cell rating of 4.20 or less volts per cell are allowed.
ii) LiHV batteries with per cell capacities to 4.35 volts or higher are not allowed.
iii) Manufacturer’s minimum discharge of 30C constant but no higher than 65C constant is allowed.

Think P-LTD, only bigger...

I'm a big NO on the "motor list"...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darin Jordan

Think P-LTD, only bigger...

I'm a big NO on the "motor list"...

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I was thinking the same, but would like to hear from racers first.
It seems there is a link to download the proposal, but it doesn't work for me. I havent heard much on this particular class. Im wondering who proposed this and what their current concerns are.

Yeah, that's nuts. Exactly what's wrong with IMPBA's version. You'll be saddled to what ever the tech is today. Turnigy and HET are not going to be worried about production of motors for toy boats. At least with Neu you could plead with him should he ever move on from the 1527 but at that point just call it Neu Scale hydro. Single source is bad mojo.
850kv is too low for 8s too. Why 8s? We've already established that some of these boats are starved for power.
How do you tech a battery to prove it's only 6000mah? The label I guess.
How do you verify that a pack is only 65c rated? Label again. When 65c stops being produced (cuz it will) the class will just stop running I guess.
How do you prove a cell is 4.2 volts per cell "rated"?

Anything you can't prove......can't be a rule. That proposal is a disaster. haha It's like a wrote it myself.

Something just occurred to me. I apologize. I don't even vote NAMBA anymore.

Not too thrilled that's for sure, I bought enough 5s packs last year to run without charging between heats.

So the rules are for like 5 Boats?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T.S.Davis

Something just occurred to me. I apologize. I don't even vote NAMBA anymore.

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Maybe to much of this? "glue sniffer"

>>>> http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/news/jex...ale-hydroplane

As far as I can tell, this is being driven by two clubs. One is RCU in WA the other in TX. Both long time scale clubs, but relatively new to FE 1/8.

The proposed rule set has all the problems we've seen in P-ltd with a couple extra added.

This rule will obsolete most of the boats on the east coast.

Not interested in P-ltd on a grand scale. Voted No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug Smock

>>>> http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/news/jex...ale-hydroplane

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Thanks!

[QUOTE=T.S.Davis;712681]Yeah, that's nuts. Exactly what's wrong with IMPBA's version. [QUOTE]

:blah::blah: :laugh::tongue:

Need to start new threads...
1) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited Motor Discussion"
2) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited Battery Discussion"
3) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited ESC Discussion"
4) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited Prop Diameter Discussion"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug Smock

:blah::blah: :laugh::tongue:

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haha I wondered if you'd see that. The cost to import a brand new 370 Plettenberg motor is $1000 now. Practical solution. Seems ligit. The good news is that the ESC Plett recommends is only another $1000.

Something I find interesting about both organization is how easy easy easy it was to get rules added vs how utterly impossible it is to change or alter them once in.

Limited was a slam dunk for NAMBA back in the day. Changing or moving to the next gen? Good luck.

Randal wrote the IMPBA FE scale rules, ran a year trial for which there were maybe 3 heats organization wide, went to a vote, slam dunk. But change em? OH MY GOODNESS! THAT WILL RUIN EVERYTHING!

We're a bunch of weird dudes.

Good luck getting a bunch of “win at all cost” people together to come up with what really should be, some simple solutions! With all those recommended rules changes, it looks like there could be a wide open door for the volume of challenges to race results to increase. This really looks ridiculous looking from the outside in. And guys, I’ve been dealing with sactioning bodies in limited and unlimited boats for most of my life. You guys sound just like them, maybe even worse! These are toy boats, for God’s sake! Sorry for the critique, but this whole thing has horrible optics...

Regardless of organization the 1/8 scale class NEEDS to better control available power. There is a reason the Nitro 1/8 scale class ONLY allows .67ci motor and no bigger. If a guy showed up at an event with an 1/8 scale with an .80/.90/1.01 motor in his boat he WOULDN’T be allow to race.

The question becomes how to develop a FE rule set that allows racers options, but keeps power on a reasonable level across the options.

Why FE boaters insist on "needing" to have gobbs of power is beyond me.

I agree, Limited classes should be about boat setup skills and driving ability. It’s like P-Limited, where they take a tiny motor rated for 80A or less, and pack 120-150A thru it and see who can live the longest. There will always be cheaters in racing, it’s a bunch of type A guys and it’s going to happen. I recommended a dyno setup to check power at the prop and got all kinds of objections. But I think they were just showing their dirty laundry, because if it’s supposed to have a limited battery, ESC and motor, then it HAS to have a given max power at the prop. Tech is easy, you measure the voltage (boats must run thru Tech at full charge), take off the prop and slide on the dyno motor. The ESC must be programmed for max throttle (power up transmitter with throttle wide open). Then perform the test. The brushed motor on the end of the prop shaft is hooked to a set of resistors. The voltage over the resistors is measured at full throttle, the system checks RPM and computes the full power output. Prop diameter and pitch is checked while it’s off the boat in dyno check. I don’t think there will ever be a resolution to this without an End of the Line Power Check...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CraigP

There will always be cheaters in racing, it’s a bunch of type A guys and it’s going to happen.

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I don't think that's accurate with FE guys. I've been racing locally and nationally for about 18 years (guessing). I've been CD for multiple large events. I've gone out of my way to try to catch guys cheating. Even checking their gear when they don't even know I'm checking. I'm only aware of one guy in 18 years that was skirting the rules. What he was doing wasn't illegal at the time. It was just extremely unsafe and put his fellow boaters at risk of injury. Everyone that runs nationally knows who he is and what he was doing. It was one of multiple things he's done to embarrass organized racing. Multiple rules were written or changed just for him. One guy. Guys that know the truth about him have ZERO respect for him by the way.

The problem you'll run into Mike, is that guys will never agree on a scale......ish speed.

We have a limits based on boat size and voltage for every other FE class outside of limited/spec. Boat length x voltage = max manageable speed. Scale could be the same. Scale (size) x voltage = max drive able boat. But with scale, some have a notion that the boats should only be going "x" so they look like scale speeds. What that means to each guy is obviously subjective. In my head the phrase "unlimited" implies......well......unlimited. I'm clearly alone in my thinking though. I get that. The alternative for me is to not participate in a big spec class. That's on me.

Not yelling or laying on the floor of my office kicking my feet BTW. Just communicating.

Terry, I respect you very much, you are a voice of reason on this forum, always have been. But there must be a reason(s) that the tech is being driven to this level of detail. I agree with you, cheating is probably too harsh a word to impart to racers in general, I apologize for that. Let’s just say there’s a high zeal of enthusiasm. But to someone that has 5 boats, and is looking in the rule book where I can race them, it just looks like a minefield.

I agree with your Unlimited approach. Min/Max Length and Min/Max Weight. All else goes... I could get excited about a class like that! P Sport is close...

Assuming that we are talking about FE only heats and not “mixed” heats; “speed” shouldn’t be part of the discussion. Boat speed is a resultant of the power system efficiency and build experience. The term “Unlimited” is carry over from original full sized boats. The term Unlimited has nothing to do with the RC scaled context of the class.

Back to Steve’s original question…

As a voting NAMBA member as well, I understand what they are trying to do with the new rule set but I am afraid it’s not the best solution. Nor do I agree the current rules in place are the good solution either. YES, 1/8 scale is a special class that requires special rules. As I have already voiced my opinion above explaining why needs to be better control of the available power for THIS class.

Power is being “Limited” in the 1/10 scale classes why would 1/8 scale be any different?

If people want to GO NUTS with power and full bodied hydroplane hulls; run a S/T Sport Hydro class!

Putting UN-enforcable rules in place leads to, well... "P-LTD" style discussions. No thanks.

How exactly do you verify that the motor is a NEU 1527 1.5Y 850KV ??

You can't... and that's just for starters.

Can't equate FE to Nitro when it comes to limits. IC engines are MUCH simpler to verify.

The only way to really limit power is voltage and amp draw. ****WATTS*** would make it fair. No problem on Volts. No reliable way to limit amp draw.
Would solve all problems. Guys could use 3080 lehners but if you limit it to 3500-4000 watts problem would be solved. Same thing for P spec...Limit watts to 1000 and who cares what motor a guy uses. ***PROVE ME WRONG***

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T.S.Davis

haha I wondered if you'd see that. The cost to import a brand new 370 Plettenberg motor is $1000 now. Practical solution. Seems ligit. The good news is that the ESC Plett recommends is only another $1000.

Something I find interesting about both organization is how easy easy easy it was to get rules added vs how utterly impossible it is to change or alter them once in.

Limited was a slam dunk for NAMBA back in the day. Changing or moving to the next gen? Good luck.

Randal wrote the IMPBA FE scale rules, ran a year trial for which there were maybe 3 heats organization wide, went to a vote, slam dunk. But change em? OH MY GOODNESS! THAT WILL RUIN EVERYTHING!

We're a bunch of weird dudes.

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Yeah I took the bait. And you're still wrong...:hug1:
The Scale rules could be changed easily if a reasonable proposal was put in front of the BOD. That hasn't happened.
Find some motors with VERY similar power and let the vetting begin.:wink:

Nitro and Gas are easy, DISPLACEMENT! FE is flawed in this respect. A guy can get as "stoopid" as he wants to with power in all the other classes (right?:wink:), we can't let that happen to scale.

Craig there are only a few "win at all cost" guys out there. We just have to :olleyes:.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by longballlumber

Power is being “Limited” in the 1/10 scale classes why would 1/8 scale be any different?

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Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age. Or maybe Mike is getting better at persuading me. That's a great comparison sir.

Doug, yes there are lots of classes to go ludicrous speed. Yer still entitled to punch me in the head one time. You've earned it. :beerchug:

We're off on a tangent but I know where Mikes head goes on things like this.......what if anything actually would expand participation in scale? Both orgs rules are kinda screwy right now. Is there some formula that would make a builder want to do it? It's not really happening right now. It could be that cost is too obscene to even worry about it. Separate thread worthy.

Craig, I hear ya. If you're truly racing you reach down in there and try to scrape out every last nugget of speed you can find. Like a bag of chips. Anything left behind is waste. It's not cheating until the bag rips and you have chips in yer lap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by photohoward1

The only way to really limit power is voltage and amp draw. ****WATTS*** would make it fair. No problem on Volts. No reliable way to limit amp draw.
Would solve all problems. Guys could use 3080 lehners but if you limit it to 3500-4000 watts problem would be solved. Same thing for P spec...Limit watts to 1000 and who cares what motor a guy uses. ***PROVE ME WRONG***

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Agreed, 100%. There’s only one practical way to do this in FE, power limiters. They are running them in Europe. We need a USA design...

Scale is a tough sell. Not everyone digs the class, the build, and they are expensive. Shoot, I shouldn't have one, REALLY hard to justify the cost. I got hooked big time being a rent a driver for four years running a nitro scale so the class would make in our GP Series. Had an absolute blast!! Having a blast racing the Squire with them now. It works with the right approach but of course you have to have the right bunch of guys.

I get it, have to start somewhere. What I don’t get is the C rating of 65c nor do I agree with that. It much easier to find 70+C rating packs. The brand motors is also something I don’t understand. With rc company’s coming and going why choke it down so much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raptor347

As far as I can tell, this is being driven by two clubs. One is RCU in WA the other in TX. Both long time scale clubs, but relatively new to FE 1/8.

The proposed rule set has all the problems we've seen in P-ltd with a couple extra added.

This rule will obsolete most of the boats on the east coast.

Not interested in P-ltd on a grand scale. Voted No.

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I agree Brian. I don’t see anything wrong with the rules as they are today. That proposal would be creating an “extremely” limited class, and it even includes specifications that would be impossible to measure. I vote no.

1/8 Scale hasn't even made the 3-boat minimum at SCSTA events for over a year. Last two events of last year no FE Class made the cutoff. (Nitro runs also). Trying something new this Saturday at the first SCSTA race : 4- boat min BUT if some of the new guys we've invited (from Inland Empire & Hansen Res) show with close but slightly outside the rules boats(only 4S in the "Ltd 'tho) we'll let them run. Handicap the points if need be. I don't need any more Starbucks gift cards anyway. 80% rule adherance = the class qualifies. 100% adherance and possibly no Class could result. We'll see. BTW We've adopted the motor size rule for Ltd. It'd a friggin'CLUB race so no infringrement on National rule parameters whatever they are or will be. I'm just in it for the fun (and the donuts:wink:)

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The IMPBA FE Nats will be one of the largest races of the season. Speculation but chances are. We barely made the cut off for scale. There are a couple that wont be racing as they aren't legal. I don't know that it's a rule thing keeping numbers low for that class. It may simply be as Doug mentioned. Tough sell. Pricey. Performance/thrill to dollar ratio? Maybe 60mph.......ish. You can go faster with a P sport for less than half the money.

I don't have the answer.

10th scale runs maybe 50mph and costs maybe a 1/3 of an 1/8 scale if you build yourself. That class is a riot. Our rules are a little more loosey goosey. The parity does add to it. That's a one motor class. Not deliberately. It's just turned out that way. Miss a turn and you get passed. That's okay though cuz the guy that passed you will probably turn in late on the next turn due to shock of having passed someone. haha Turning left seems to even out the playing field. Not sure why that is either. Sure is fun. If yer not laughing at the end yer doing it wrong.