TP 5850 vs LMT 3060 or perhaps, 155$ vs 510$... and??

Well I have been doing a good amount of research into TP Power motors as of recent and have been very intrigued as to why I have waited so long to do this. Baffling to me is the respective positive feedback (Which seems almost unanimous from my own perspective) and their retail price range. And just as common as all this, is the apparent notion that TP is in general terms very underrated. For me, this was especially interesting as the first motor I ever purchased for my first boat build ever, was a Leopard 5698, and this was under the assumption as it was a good value and they seem to be very abundant in FE boating.

That being said, ive always had a strong desire to own a top teir Lehner motor, perhaps a 2280 or 3040 (im into large scale hydros), and came very close to ordering 1 direct from LMT on a few occassions, the wait time and shipping being the main drawback. Even moreso glad now however that I did not.

If you may, please watch these two videos, both of these boats respectively running the motors mentioned in thread title (5850 / 3060). Each is running the exact same hull (CT05 hydroplane, 61 inches long, 30 inches wide, 30+ lbs), and both are just about at the same speed of 65mph. The main difference im aware of is the LMT is on 10s2p, while the 5850 is on 12s2p, however the LMT is a 6 wind, or 1167kv which would equal to 43179rpm, whereas the 5850 is 820kv which equals to 36080 rpm.

5850 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib0z3fGcnkg
3060 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7sYPZzmysU


This being said, can anyone provide me a solid justification as to why spend about 350$ extra for the Lehner motor?

I too longed to own a high end Lehner. So I bought a couple and one for a buddy of mine. The first one I had failed within a month. I'm still waiting to see if it can be repaired. Then the one that was for my buddy failed a couple days ago. The shaft slid out of it. It slid to the side the shaft sticks out. No reason why. 8mm shaft. Both of these motors were both purchased brand new on my part and they were 2260's. The other one that I had probably would have failed by now (with the track record I've had experience with) but that boat sank. Now....I've never had a neu fail, castle or tp fail. I've got way more run times on other motors besides the lehners. I'll go out on a limb and say I'm no longer a Lehner fan. Try and ship one back to have it repaired. O and there's really no warranty on them and the average price (from what I've researched) is about $200+ for repair. I'd rather stick with my original idea of I can buy four motors for the price of one and I'm pretty sure those four motors will last a lot longer (as it stands now everything else I own has outlasted my Lehner anyway, so much for the idea of getting a premium reliable motor). This is just my personal experience. I'm sure there's many others that may have had good luck with them, but I haven't. I see no good reason why cheaper motors are out lasting them in the same kind of situations I put them through. I'm pretty much done using super expensive escs and motors when I can accomplish the same thing for a lot less money and still not have a warranty either way.

Travis,

The Lehner failures sound uncommon based on my experiences. I am an authorized distributor and repair shop for LMT motor's. I would be happy to take a look for you and take them apart. If they can be easily serviced I will do so free of labor charge. You only pay shipping and for parts if necessary.

Yes there is a significant cost difference between a Lehner, TP, Neu, Leopard, HET, Castle, etc. Quality of materials, engineering and cost of labor have major impact on the final price. If the Lehner's were made in China with appropriate locally sourced materials they would likely have similar pricing. A good comparison is a Neu 1515 and a Castle 1515. Both are based on Steve Neu's design, but one is made in the US and one is made in China. Both perform very similarly, but the Castle is half the cost.

In full disclosure I have probably failed more LMT motors than most other modelers and some have been the result of freak occurrences, but the majority are me pushing them well beyond practical sporting limits. The simple fact is LMT's can push more power given a similar frame size than 99% of the competitors.

Are there better "bang for the buck" motors, absolutely.

My service offer extends to anyone with a Lehner motor.

Tyler

Good to know that you are a authorized distributor and repair shop for LMT motor's. I have a 2280 12t motor that I raced in my 1/8 Scale for 4 to 6 years. About 8 or 10 years ago it died. Due to the high cost of shipping and repair at Lehener I have put it off. When I have the funds next year I will contact you to see if it is repairable. It is one of the twin turn motors.

Dollar for dollar I feel the Neu is a much better option, a 1530 will save about $100 easy. IMO

Thanks Tyler. The motor has a severe vibration that makes the cap unscrew. It's also changed from 1600ish kv to 4000ish kv. How I have no idea how. It ran just fine the last time I ran it then the next time as I was getting up on plane it blew up my mind esc. I'm not too worried much about it anymore as I ordered a neu 1530 to replace it. Keith has it right now and has attempted to send it back to Germany once already and the postal service sent it back. If I get it back I'll send it to you.

Travis,

Something very odd happened with your motor then. The change in KV must be due to an internal short likely as a result of temperature. If the main body section unscrewed from the cap do I assume correctly the rear of the motor was unsupported?

When you get it back from Keith, send me a PM for my address.

Tyler

Or the magnets demagnetised, again as a result of temperature, that will send the KV through the roof too.

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Originally Posted by NativePaul

Or the magnets demagnetised, again as a result of temperature, that will send the KV through the roof too.

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When demagnetisation happens can you feel it when turning the rotor by hand or is only a small amount of demagnetisation required for this to happen?

Basically is there any way to tell physically when it happens?

I think the second motor Travis is talking about is his friend Brandon's, who ran his 1700kv 2260 on 9s with a fairly large prop in a Cheetah hull...travis can correct me if I'm wrong here, but in that case, I say it's the nature of the beast. Part of learning how to go fast may require experimenting, but when the experiment doesn't work out, you kind of have to take responsibility for the result. I've made some mistakes and it's cost me some motors and ESCs, but I'm not surprised when it happens. If you want longevity, perpetually increasing voltage and prop size is probably not the best plan.

To the OP: I think when you get into big boat/big prop/lower RPM setups, there are diminished returns in regard to spending the extra money on Lehner. Each motor design (Neu and LMT) has it's strengths and weaknesses. The LMT motors are quite efficient at higher RPM, while the 4-pole design is limited by centrifugal force in this regard. I also think LMT motors are easier on ESCs than 4 pole motors.

Ray
Lehners are an iron less design and do not have detents like a Neu. Hence you cannot feel if the rotor has been demagnetized. If you short adjacent phases you can feel added resistance.

Tyler

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Originally Posted by kfxguy

Thanks Tyler. The motor has a severe vibration that makes the cap unscrew. It's also changed from 1600ish kv to 4000ish kv. How I have no idea how. It ran just fine the last time I ran it then the next time as I was getting up on plane it blew up my mind esc. I'm not too worried much about it anymore as I ordered a neu 1530 to replace it. Keith has it right now and has attempted to send it back to Germany once already and the postal service sent it back. If I get it back I'll send it to you.

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Travis, I still have your motor here. After talking to Andi, he confirmed that the address I used was correct, and also said that he regularly receives packages sent via USPS, so I don't really know what to do different. I'm going to just re-send the other couple motors here and keep my fingers crossed. I can send your with that shipment, or send it to Tyler if you like.

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Originally Posted by keithbradley

I think the second motor Travis is talking about is his friend Brandon's, who ran his 1700kv 2260 on 9s with a fairly large prop in a Cheetah hull...travis can correct me if I'm wrong here, but in that case, I say it's the nature of the beast. Part of learning how to go fast may require experimenting, but when the experiment doesn't work out, you kind of have to take responsibility for the result. I've made some mistakes and it's cost me some motors and ESCs, but I'm not surprised when it happens. If you want longevity, perpetually increasing voltage and prop size is probably not the best plan.

To the OP: I think when you get into big boat/big prop/lower RPM setups, there are diminished returns in regard to spending the extra money on Lehner. Each motor design (Neu and LMT) has it's strengths and weaknesses. The LMT motors are quite efficient at higher RPM, while the 4-pole design is limited by centrifugal force in this regard. I also think LMT motors are easier on ESCs than 4 pole motors.

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Yes it's Brandon I'm referring to. He didn't run 9s that I know of. If he did, he didn't tell me because He knows I'd be upset because I warned him not to. Guess it would be a told-you-so type of thing lol. He mainly ran it on 6s and 7s but when he was chasing speed he did run it on 8s. For comparison (sort of) I had a neu 1521 1900kv that had lots and lots of runs on it, I ran it mostly on 7s which I'd figure is very close to the same rpm. Maybe it was a fluke in my case and Brandon's case, I dunno. I do like the motors no doubt, but I don't have the budget to afford failures like I've experienced. Maybe I'll try another one in the future if I'm attempting an all out boat, but as for now I'm just having fun and the cheaper motors seem to be fitting the bill better for me.

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Originally Posted by keithbradley

I think the second motor Travis is talking about is his friend Brandon's, who ran his 1700kv 2260 on 9s with a fairly large prop in a Cheetah hull...travis can correct me if I'm wrong here, but in that case, I say it's the nature of the beast. Part of learning how to go fast may require experimenting, but when the experiment doesn't work out, you kind of have to take responsibility for the result. I've made some mistakes and it's cost me some motors and ESCs, but I'm not surprised when it happens. If you want longevity, perpetually increasing voltage and prop size is probably not the best plan.

To the OP: I think when you get into big boat/big prop/lower RPM setups, there are diminished returns in regard to spending the extra money on Lehner. Each motor design (Neu and LMT) has it's strengths and weaknesses. The LMT motors are quite efficient at higher RPM, while the 4-pole design is limited by centrifugal force in this regard. I also think LMT motors are easier on ESCs than 4 pole motors.

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Yes it's Brandon I'm referring to. He didn't run 9s that I know of. If he did, he didn't tell me because He knows I'd be upset because I warned him not to. Guess it would be a told-you-so type of thing lol. He mainly ran it on 6s and 7s but when he was chasing speed he did run it on 8s. For comparison (sort of) I had a neu 1521 1900kv that had lots and lots of runs on it, I ran it mostly on 7s which I'd figure is very close to the same rpm. Maybe it was a fluke in my case and Brandon's case, I dunno. I do like the motors no doubt, but I don't have the budget to afford failures like I've experienced. Maybe I'll try another one in the future if I'm attempting an all out boat, but as for now I'm just having fun and the cheaper motors seem to be fitting the bill better for me.

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Originally Posted by kfxguy

Yes it's Brandon I'm referring to. He didn't run 9s that I know of. If he did, he didn't tell me because He knows I'd be upset because I warned him not to. Guess it would be a told-you-so type of thing lol. He mainly ran it on 6s and 7s but when he was chasing speed he did run it on 8s. For comparison (sort of) I had a neu 1521 1900kv that had lots and lots of runs on it, I ran it mostly on 7s which I'd figure is very close to the same rpm. Maybe it was a fluke in my case and Brandon's case, I dunno. I do like the motors no doubt, but I don't have the budget to afford failures like I've experienced. Maybe I'll try another one in the future if I'm attempting an all out boat, but as for now I'm just having fun and the cheaper motors seem to be fitting the bill better for me.

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Definitely not a fluke in his case...it was only a matter of time. Running his motor on 9s would be more comparable to running your 1900kv 1521 on 9s, not 7s. I think it was probably a fun experiment, but hopefully lesson learned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3aybx6YHyU

Incrimination via YouTube! Hard landings have also been killers of motors.

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Originally Posted by RaceMechaniX

Incrimination via YouTube! Hard landings have also been killers of motors.

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Hooking hard in a mono can be a destroyer as well. That cavitation-induced driveline vibration is NASTY.

We could probably start a thread on "Ways to kill a motor that you never considered". :lol:

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Originally Posted by keithbradley

Definitely not a fluke in his case...it was only a matter of time. Running his motor on 9s would be more comparable to running your 1900kv 1521 on 9s, not 7s. I think it was probably a fun experiment, but hopefully lesson learned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3aybx6YHyU

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Nothing I can say there. That's his own fault although he told me he only tried it once or twice (I asked him after you said he had run it on 9s). Btw I think it would be a more fair comparison of saying the 1900kv on 8s vs his 1644kv on 9s. Which is just silly either way. He did mention he wanted to try 9s at one point and I was against it. I told him the motor can't handle it.

well it seems theres hardly any reason (or perhaps motivation to provide said reasoning) in my eyes to purchase a Lehner instead of the 5670 i have been considering.

threads already offtopic, so I had a question, since theres probably alot of twin motor experience here. Could anyone provide me a rough idea or maybe just a choice of "better performance" between either a single 720kv 5670 on 10s, or twin 880kv 4070s on 8s each in a 45inch, 25lb boat?

Castle has a sale on today. Monster Mamba package for $350.... Just sayin' ! You'd need a water Jacket and convert the esc for water cooling...

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Originally Posted by nichismo

well it seems theres hardly any reason (or perhaps motivation to provide said reasoning) in my eyes to purchase a Lehner instead of the 5670 i have been considering.

threads already offtopic, so I had a question, since theres probably alot of twin motor experience here. Could anyone provide me a rough idea or maybe just a choice of "better performance" between either a single 720kv 5670 on 10s, or twin 880kv 4070s on 8s each in a 45inch, 25lb boat?

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You will have the potential for more power with 10s. People put too much emphasis on the number of motors in a boat when it comes to predicting speed. If it's a scale cat that's made to run with twin power, I would suggest running twins regardless. If you're asking which has the potential to go faster, whichever setup is carrying the most power (lipo cells) in the boat.

EDIT: I also don't know why you think the thread is off topic. Discussion of motors failing and different causes of failure is pretty relevant to "which one is better". Make no mistake, you get what you pay for when it comes to German quality vs. Chinese quality.

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Originally Posted by keithbradley

You will have the potential for more power with 10s. People put too much emphasis on the number of motors in a boat when it comes to predicting speed. If it's a scale cat that's made to run with twin power, I would suggest running twins regardless. If you're asking which has the potential to go faster, whichever setup is carrying the most power (lipo cells) in the boat.

EDIT: I also don't know why you think the thread is off topic. Discussion of motors failing and different causes of failure is pretty relevant to "which one is better". Make no mistake, you get what you pay for when it comes to German quality vs. Chinese quality.

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well yeah im not exactly completely oblivious to where that extra money goes, theres obvious implications as long as you understand basic motor dynamics and fabrication, even moreso when reviewing the general market landscape, its just in regards to the two videos and posted and their particular motor setups and corresponding technical specifications, I was hoping for just a little more elaboration in those aspects, rather than Travis and Brandons runs, thats all. Apologies, probably should have emphasised that moreso.

Ive only been familiar with rather large boat setups since getting involved with the hobby, so perhaps ive been a little more sensitive towards the RPM and heat relationship. Totally aware of the importance of lipos, Ive often told people unfamiliar with the hobby and interested in my project (specifically ones that are suprised to learn im using FE power) that lipos are the biggest advancement in recent memory and are most reponsible imo of the great progress in performance its enjoyed. The reason im so curious about the motors is the boat is a hydroplane rather than a cat, and obviously a twin powered hydroplane is unorthodox and im sure in many faithful scale hydro guys whom pretty much race majority of the time, its almost blasphemy or at the least, rather silly... lol. but ive just been inspired by a recent build ive seen and have been naturally curious ever since. That being said, isnt it still worth noting that larger, low KV motor, especially lower quality chinese motors, more "equipped" to handle higher cell counts than the latter? its just that im not currently keen on the idea of spending anymore than I have to on my lipos at this point, and with the twin setup..... yeah you already understand lol. But if its worth it, then heck, who cares!

Also Keith I sent you an email recently, was just curious if you maybe had a moment to review it yet :)

thanks

The TP motor is a 6 pole. I ran the 5850 1000kv on 11s, was harder on escs than 1010kv 3040s on 12s. By harder on escs I mean higher esc temps.

I know for a fact the 5692/98/110 is easier on electronics than a similar size TP.

The big TP motor grew in popularity a few years ago and some impressive speeds were posted. GPS speed or video doesn't reflect motor quality or efficiency. I only ran high rpm with the TP though.

Well I apologize if the thread has gotten off track. I won't give my opinion or experience anymore. Keep to my self for now on.

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Originally Posted by nichismo

well yeah im not exactly completely oblivious to where that extra money goes, theres obvious implications as long as you understand basic motor dynamics and fabrication, even moreso when reviewing the general market landscape, its just in regards to the two videos and posted and their particular motor setups and corresponding technical specifications, I was hoping for just a little more elaboration in those aspects, rather than Travis and Brandons runs, thats all. Apologies, probably should have emphasised that moreso.

Ive only been familiar with rather large boat setups since getting involved with the hobby, so perhaps ive been a little more sensitive towards the RPM and heat relationship. Totally aware of the importance of lipos, Ive often told people unfamiliar with the hobby and interested in my project (specifically ones that are suprised to learn im using FE power) that lipos are the biggest advancement in recent memory and are most reponsible imo of the great progress in performance its enjoyed. The reason im so curious about the motors is the boat is a hydroplane rather than a cat, and obviously a twin powered hydroplane is unorthodox and im sure in many faithful scale hydro guys whom pretty much race majority of the time, its almost blasphemy or at the least, rather silly... lol. but ive just been inspired by a recent build ive seen and have been naturally curious ever since. That being said, isnt it still worth noting that larger, low KV motor, especially lower quality chinese motors, more "equipped" to handle higher cell counts than the latter? its just that im not currently keen on the idea of spending anymore than I have to on my lipos at this point, and with the twin setup..... yeah you already understand lol. But if its worth it, then heck, who cares!

Also Keith I sent you an email recently, was just curious if you maybe had a moment to review it yet :)

thanks

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I think twins on a hydro is cool, but a single is going to be a lot more straight forward. Depending on your experience level and how much you are willing to learn and figure out for yourself, it might be a better fit to do a single first, and save the twin for later. If you build a single there are a lot of guys on here that can help you tune it, if you build a twin it's pretty much going to all fall on your shoulders.

The biggest difference between twin prop and single prop is realized because you having a counter-rotating prop. It changes the way the hull handles and the lift characteristics of the boat. If you have a boat without flat ride pads like a daytona/genesis, explorer, HPR, MHZ, Radtek, etc., I think you're better off with twins because of the lower amount of hydrodynamic lift at low speeds. With something like a hydro, I think it's more of a novelty.

Keep in mind that a twin setup is less efficient than a single prop setup, so if you're looking for the most bang for your buck and not concerned with the novelty of having a hydro with twins, go with one motor. If you're building one of the aforementioned cats, I would definitely tell you the opposite.

If the OP is interested in oval running, he will probably not want counter rotating twins. Every oval racing outrigger twin I have seen - over a dozen - ran same-direction motors because CR compromises turning too much. If he just want to make zip-zip runs the CR is the way to go..

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Originally Posted by kfxguy

Well I apologize if the thread has gotten off track. I won't give my opinion or experience anymore. Keep to my self for now on.

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no need to apologize, no one said your experience and opinion aren't welcome. Im not a stifler for keeping threads on topic, the thread was already moved to begin with and I was just stating the thread was offtopic to give myself clearance for what I was about to bring to the discussion, rather than make a new thread. In fact, the entire reason I wanted to do this was exactly because of the experience I felt I had available with the people whom were posting so far. If I made another thread, theres no assurance that id be able to get as well educated opinion as I would with the members already here.

please, would love your opinion on any topic :)

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Originally Posted by keithbradley

I think twins on a hydro is cool, but a single is going to be a lot more straight forward. Depending on your experience level and how much you are willing to learn and figure out for yourself, it might be a better fit to do a single first, and save the twin for later. If you build a single there are a lot of guys on here that can help you tune it, if you build a twin it's pretty much going to all fall on your shoulders.

The biggest difference between twin prop and single prop is realized because you having a counter-rotating prop. It changes the way the hull handles and the lift characteristics of the boat. If you have a boat without flat ride pads like a daytona/genesis, explorer, HPR, MHZ, Radtek, etc., I think you're better off with twins because of the lower amount of hydrodynamic lift at low speeds. With something like a hydro, I think it's more of a novelty.

Keep in mind that a twin setup is less efficient than a single prop setup, so if you're looking for the most bang for your buck and not concerned with the novelty of having a hydro with twins, go with one motor. If you're building one of the aforementioned cats, I would definitely tell you the opposite.

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This is going to be the second scale hydro ive built, im just finishing up my first one which took up all of nearly 8 months to finish. I set it up for two different power configurations that I can swap at any time and I plan to drive it as much as possible before really proceeding with any real component choices for the next build.

The novelty aspect is definately a big part of it, as I felt the construction was something I wanted to thoroughly document for those interested, and even moreso the performance was something I would be really excited about, if its indeed anything like the inspiration I got the idea from.

The lift and potential blowovers is my main concern, but then again I figured with the substantial extra weight from doubling the necessary pieces would sort of balance things out. I don't necessarily want to settle for the best value, as any scale hydroplane is a lofty investment, even moreso with an FE setup, but then again Im not exactly at boundless levels of investment. Lipos are just the main point, whereas everything else is a permanent fixture for each respective project, and something I dont mind spending a little more on

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Originally Posted by Fluid

If the OP is interested in oval running, he will probably not want counter rotating twins. Every oval racing outrigger twin I have seen - over a dozen - ran same-direction motors because CR compromises turning too much. If he just want to make zip-zip runs the CR is the way to go..

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definately oval running

How much rpms would a 1644kv 2250 LMT spin on 8s unloaded?

3.7v X 8s = 30

30 X 1644kv = 49,320 RPM

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Originally Posted by nichismo

3.7v X 8s = 30

30 X 1644kv = 49,320 RPM

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Actually, the 1644kv rating is LOADED, not unloaded. Comparable loaded kv from a typical 4-pole motor would more likely be rated somewhere in between 1800-1900. Crazy high for 9s.

Most of the twin riggers I have seen have been nitro powered, so not counter-rotating as Jay said. I can't think of any twin sport hydros, but I'm sure Jay is familiar with some. If I were to build one I would definitely try both variations. The good thing about electric is that you have the ability to simply swap rotation direction fairly easily.

the hull itself is actually a 1/8 scale hull