Combining Nitro & FE classes?

Some clubs are combining FE with Nitro classes and I am curious how it is working out? From what I see being done P and .21nitro and Q with .45 nitro seems to be what is being offered. It keeps classes that struggle for attendance going which is a plus. That said it also gives FE a footprint in established races. A win for both power sources.
If FE dominates is that a good thing? A full P in a .21 class or Q in a .45 class is not fair IMO. I say that with over 30 years nitro experience and 10 in FE. I feel a P/limited matches better with .21's and full P better with .45s. A Q would match better with .60 nitro's. So how is it going for those who are doing it?
Mic

IME after years of racing with gas (not nitro) many gas guys think that racing against FE isn?t fair to the gas racers. I?m sure this is personality driven, but instead of uniting FE and fuel racers it could drive a wedge between them. It?s probably worth trying though.

I find it ironic that 15 years ago fuel racers didn?t want to race with FE boaters because they were just too slow.



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Al Waters once told me that the first race happened when the second guy showed up and that he first rule was written by the guy that lost. The guy that looses in a mixed race might say the race wasn't fair. Especially if they don't understand the other power source. I'm a prime example. I don't know jack about nitro. If I loose I could say "well, it's not apples to apples" even though I have less than zero clue what I'm talking about. Not all nitro guys understand FE either. If they get beat same thought process. Maybe.

Q sport and Sport 40 might work together just because the available hulls have a built in speed limit of sorts.
The trouble with running P and say .45's together might be size. P boats are smaller are they not? By lap three if you aren't leading the water will be nasty.
I think you're right about limited and .21 but I've not run any nitro myself. Just the eyeball test. They look similar on the water. Although I have seen some .21 nitro riggers that were just nutty.

IMO if it gets people to the pond and they're able to put egos aside it can work. However, there will need to be restrictions on the FE boats (excluding P-Limited). I would imagine it's not an easy task. Its REALLY tough to draw any direct equality to gas/FE or nitro/FE. Just my opinion as a current racer of both nitro and FE.

In the few opportunities that I had to race my FE's in a mixed class it was always an "Open" class. Therefore I wasn't restricted. There is a video out there on you tube where I was racing my Q sport hydro in an OPEN class (riggers). I think I finished the day 3rd in points with one DNF. I had no problem holding my own. I can't imagine how a Nitro powered Sport 40 could have done the same.

They are and have been doing this in IMPBA District 12 for awhile now. I am sure the rules have morphed over the years, but the concept has always stayed the same. The following was taken our of their district rules posted on their web page.

6. In the spirit of good sportsmanship, any FE boats having a noticeable speed advantage over the faster nitro boats will be
asked to detune their boats to ensure competitive racing. If they do not comply, they shall be disqualified from the class for the race weekend. All Open Classes are exempt from this rule.

They have also being attempting this in district 13 over the last few years. At one point they were doing it with the scale class, and the FE Scales were limited on prop diameter. It looks like now they are trying to combined a D/Q Hydro class allowing multiple "hydro" hull types with no restrictions on the FE boats. This was taken from their next scheduled race on RCracingevents.com

OPEN TO ALL Q VOLTAGE (6S) AND D (NITRO) FUELED MULTIPLE WETTED SURFACE HULLS(OUTRIGGER, CATAMARAN,SPORT HYDRO AND TUNNEL). FOR RACES WITH BOTH FUEL TYPES REGISTERED (Q&D) IN THIS CLASS, A FULL MILL CLOCK WILL BE USED FOR (LIKE OPEN CLASSES NOW) AND IF ONLY ELECTRIC BOATS ARE REGISTERED, THE SHORTER 30 SECOND CLOCK WILL BE USED.

Later,
Ball

Mike, you might know. Was this ever attempted with nitro and gas? Open classes obviously but like at a specific power level where an attempt was made to find parity to make some heats?

The de-tuning thing seems a slippery slope. I mean, who decides it's necessary and then just how much "de-tuning"? That could turn into "more, more, just a little more.......okay, that's enough. Now I can beat ya".

At one race there were extra rules for FE boats in open classes.

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Originally Posted by T.S.Davis

Mike, you might know. Was this ever attempted with nitro and gas? Open classes obviously but like at a specific power level where an attempt was made to find parity to make some heats?

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Not that I am aware of. Doesn't mean it wasn't attempted though, I just don't know.

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Originally Posted by T.S.Davis

The de-tuning thing seems a slippery slope. I mean, who decides it's necessary and then just how much "de-tuning"? That could turn into "more, more, just a little more.......okay, that's enough. Now I can beat ya".

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Agreed, hence my comment about it being difficult and egos getting in the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T.S.Davis

At one race there were extra rules for FE boats in open classes.

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I am not 100% sure what your referencing, but I completely understand the IC guys asking for some sort of provision for the FE boats if they flip, tumble, or stuff. A large advantage in IC classes is simply finishing races. Especially, in Nitro. In MOST cases, if an IC boat does one of those it will typically die. In FE you have a 50/50 chance it lands or pops up in the correct orientation allowing them to finish the heat and score points. Other than that I can't think of an extra rule that would be warranted.

Kinda reminds me of FE offshore and FE mono heats were you had self-righting hulls. Just doesn't seem right a guy could run his boat with little concern knowing it would self-right if it took a tumble.

"De Tune" Sure I'll be a good sport. How much distance can I win by before you deem I didn't comply. I guess rather than "sandbagging" I would rather see a rule to restrict power.
I think if you ran P/limited vs. nitro .21's in any hull type it wouldn't be long before a lot of nitro racers would convert rather than go to gas. A 3660 and say an Raider 150 cost under $150. Add 2 batteries $150-200 and compare to a Nitro .21 with pipe at $500 plus $7 glow plugs and $50 a gallon fuel.
Now from my experience with .21 tunnels they are maybe 4-5 faster than my P/limited. But the FE will out accelerate the nitro. I would run my P/L mono or hydro with .21 nitro all day long with similar results. A full P even with length restriction in my mind you would be asking me to be a "good sport". Not a close match.
As for .45's against Q's give both acceleration and speed to FE. Limit a Q to 75mm motor and it might level out.
Hopefully someone who has actually competed in races outside of Open will chime in.
Mic

That boat stopping rule should apply universally. Although I have seen a nitro boat stuff completely under water and come up running. (I've done it} As long as a boat continues forward motion it can be legal. Once it stops dead it should be dead no restart.
Mic

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Originally Posted by longballlumber

I am not 100% sure what your referencing, but I completely understand the IC guys asking for some sort of provision for the FE boats if they flip, tumble, or stuff.

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One of the things that we try to teach guys is that if they spin out they need to look for traffic before they mash the throttle again. It's not a rule. Just etiquette. Most will wait. If you spin with a gas or nitro boat you just stay in the throttle and hope it keeps running. Trajectory be damned. Seen that multiple times at multiple events. You could get a lane violation but I think I could count the lane violation calls I've seen in my years of traveling on a single hand. We could just stay in the throttle when we spin with FE too but because some of us wont do it we're penalized not with the lane violation we might have committed but with "did not finish".

If they run together they have to have the same heat racing rules.