P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[rayzerdesigns]

as much as it would make the racing more equal I don't see the one motor thing ever passing..too many people would complain that its favoritism..i do currently like the motors available in 1/10th scale classes per namba..I don't feel the need for any others..but that's my opinion..the scales are well past 50mph now and that is pushing limits of hulls..my modern was radared at 56mph at nationals this year..which is plenty fast..I know a lot of people that run the himax motor or proboat/dynamite motor..i forget what other motors are namba legal for scale classes but I don't see need to dwindle or grow the list..as for spec classes per namba the list is still up darin did a lot of testing but didn't find any comparable..i for one am happy with the selection available for p limited and scale per namba the way it is

[Coug90]

as much as it would make the racing more equal I don't see the one motor thing ever passing..too many people would complain that its favoritism..i do currently like the motors available in 1/10th scale classes per namba..I don't feel the need for any others..but that's my opinion..the scales are well past 50mph now and that is pushing limits of hulls..my modern was radared at 56mph at nationals this year..which is plenty fast..I know a lot of people that run the himax motor or proboat/dynamite motor..i forget what other motors are namba legal for scale classes but I don't see need to dwindle or grow the list..as for spec classes per namba the list is still up darin did a lot of testing but didn't find any comparable..i for one am happy with the selection available for p limited and scale per namba the way it is

I guess I don't understand that statement. Favoritism towards whom? I would think limiting to one affordable motor seems to me like it would be the least act of favoritism if you're devoted to keeping a spec motor class. Frankly, I don't see it happening at the NAMBA level either. Given that, I wonder if it doesn't need to go a bit the other way, if done wisely. I do think it is possible and that it might be prudent, proactive, long term planning. There are no guarantees against change, but does anyone ever worry that the majority of the spec motors are tied to RTR boat model offerings? Unexpected elimination of production of some of these motors could be a problem considering the lengthy process involved with getting new rules passed. Has there been much discussion about a desire to diversify with a couple more affordable comparable selections outside of the RTR boat selections? If so, what has been the concensus? Is this something people worry about?

[rayzerdesigns]

there was discussion about going to one motor but the overwhelming majority thought it would be favoritizm towards a single manufacturer..i see that point, but i do think the only way you make it fair is to have one motor..and this whole thread was to try and see if there was any viable replacements to the current line of p limited motors..darin spent a lot of time testing just about every motor that should have been comparable..either way under or over..so there in lies the problem..i for one am ok with the current supply of motors..now is that going to change in the futre..im sure..as it seems to be that manufactures are heading in the direction of bigger and faster rtrs..at the time now the current motor list still has suppliers and distributors to keep the p limited class going..

[Coug90]

I'm beginning to see why this is such a frustrating subject for so many. It seems to me that you should only serve one master if you want a true spec motor class. That master has to be the class itself. If a spec motor class is your goal, then you can't have loyalties elsewhere. Maybe the biggest problem is that the decision making for spec is left to the racers to set. Spec motor classes might be easier to manage if the only thing set by the racers is the fact that they want a spec motor class and maybe the basic performance they want in that motor. If 56 mph is out of control for a boat size you have, then you need an affordable motor for your class that will give you a point in the 45-50 mph range to promote the type of racing you want to have. What if NAMBA had a board established for motor evaluations and the spec classes left it to them to find x amount of motors that would meet the class needs when a need arose. If all motors meet the criteria, the final decision could be made by a witnessed random drawing. We don't have enough of the industry market share to warrant loyalty of a manufacturer, so there isn't any loyalty to boat racers. Why do we care about favoritism of a manufacturer in the first place? They will be loyal to what's profitable. If the spec motor board makes their needs known to the industry, then any manufacturer can submit their offering to the board for testing. If it makes the cut, then it goes into the drawing. When the choice is made, that is your new spec motor for as long as it's available or until there is a need to change the performance parameters of the class and the process happens again. I'm just saying that maybe NAMBA should play a bigger role in managing the spec motors and we trust them to evaluate how the class is doing and what the class needs. I don't see a new motor selection happening every year, but when it's needed, it should be something that can happen fairly quickly if the process is set up wisely and fairly by people that we elect to do that. I don't see spec motor classes finding the right answer if we never ask the right questions. I still say if what you want is a truly spec motor class, then you have to be willing to burn it to the ground and start over with that in mind. Right now I'm not sure NAMBA has any true spec motor classes. They are more like semi-open motor classes. I'd be willing to give up some control in order to have the means to establish and maintain a true spec motor class where the health of "the class" is what matters the most. It's a philosophical problem, not a technical motor problem. We can't find this answer on the shop bench. However, I'd put guys like Darin on my short list of people to serve on a spec motor board. Wish I had his knowledge and equipment. It would take some teamwork and group thinking, but if we're willing to ask NAMBA to go there...

[Darin Jordan]

IF I were starting this class over, I'd change the parameters of the power systems slightly in order to use the more popular and generally available 36-60-XXXX sized FOUR-POLE motors... This would open the class up to several options. I'd pick three brands and the 3 popular KVs of each brand and those would be what you could choose from.

One thing my testing should have shown people is that KV DOES NOT MATTER in regards to power output. The overall power output for two motors of the same weight and physical dimensions, and manufacture, ARE NOT DIFFERENT. Only the RPM is different. Load them both to 100A and the watts are the same. So it then becomes a hull-tuning and prop selection issue. One motor let's you compete with a hull that likes a small, fast spinning prop. The other let's you compete with a larger hull that performs well with a larger, higher-pitched prop. Both go 60 or whatever...

I'd actually take it one-step further and simply list a set of motor parameters and let you choose; kind of a "Free Market Capitalistic" approach to racing.

But people in RC boating have shown, quite clearly, that that requires more thought and consideration than they are generally wanting to provide to the process, so it's easier just to give them a specific list of choices, which is more like the "Socialistic" approach to boat racing.

The one motor allowed is an example of people not wanting to put ANY thought into what they are competing with and just flat out want to be told. To me, that would be the full on "Dictatorial, or Fascist" way to go about this, but it definitely makes for a "spec" class.

And, in case you are wondering, yes, the political references were my attempts at joking around a bit, so don't get all bent out of shape, even it the references are dead-on true... :)

[ray schrauwen]

"You American Capatalist Pig! ", Lol... I'm with you! For now I'll stick with what you found to be the most efficient motor from the standard Socialist list.

[RandyatBBY]

I really like the ideas of Mitch and Darin and kind of blend them. The real reason for the for keeping the production spec boats in the mix is to bring in the newbie to RC Boating. In our district we are talking about a Sports man class with in P LTD racing. This will help bring them in and give them a place to win at the same time. It will have the same rules basically but be on a district level only if it can be supported by newbie over the years.

This is my thought on how to run it. it is a P LTD Sportsman class to these hulls: Momo, Catamarans, OPC and sport hulls. No riggers allowed. Any one can run in the class until you have won for two year, at that point you you move up to P LTD classes that are not restricted. It would be good for seasoned vet to run in it to start it up but guys like me would not be allowed. I am sure others can be more articulate at pounding this out than I am. Just a thought.

[Coug90]

The one motor allowed is an example of people not wanting to put ANY thought into what they are competing with and just flat out want to be told. To me, that would be the full on "Dictatorial, or Fascist" way to go about this, but it definitely makes for a "spec" class.

And, in case you are wondering, yes, the political references were my attempts at joking around a bit, so don't get all bent out of shape, even it the references are dead-on true... :)

That's exactly what I'm saying. Thanks Darin, for the comments. I believe a spec motor class should be absolutely specific on the motor selection by rule. What is "dictated" is the motor. Do what you want with everything else or define what can be done with things that define the class, like hull type, what scale, prop, whatever. It simplifies the motor subject. It's not that we don't want to think, it's that we want the thinking done by those who govern the class. We have elected or appointed folks in NAMBA to do other things. Why not have group assigned to choose a spec motor for any spec motor class when needed? The real thinking of the membership would be deciding what the performance range, price range, and other goal to set for the best interest of the class. Isn't that why spec motor classes exist? I saw another thread somewhere about the "intent" of P-LTD, but I didn't read it yet. It may have to do with that issue. Define the intent first and foremost, then design a procedure to maintain that intent. There are other classes for those who want to think about their motor choices in some of their boats. In a spec motor class, you should be thinking about everything else except what motor to use. It's like the Pinewood Derby in Cub Scouts where you get the same official kit as everyone else, the rules set much of what you can add, but you have to use the stuff in the kit for the most part. You still get a really cool variety of cars and good, fun racing because there's still enough stuff you can mess with and you know everyone started at the same place with the same stuff. The difference in success was how they built and prepared their cars. I think it would make spec motor classes even better and easier to manage if a good motor selection process were proposed for the NAMBA rule book. Why not?

[zooma]

I don't believe that people are to lazy to think or do some research. I believe that the new or up-and-coming racers should not have to buy and try a half dozen motors just to find out what works.

[T.S.Davis]

I don't believe that people are to lazy to think or do some research. I believe that the new or up-and-coming racers should not have to buy and try a half dozen motors just to find out what works.

'

They don't really have to if they would just listen. Most clubs have guys in them that have already tried all half dozen motors. You would be shocked how often you tell a new guy exactly what to do with a particular boat and then on race day they've gone a different direction. They're smarter, or read something on line, or some guy at the hobby shop said "this setup is better". Then when they burn it up they're frustrated. So are the guys trying to help him. Eventually you quit trying to help them.

[zooma]

'

They don't really have to if they would just listen. Most clubs have guys in them that have already tried all half dozen motors. You would be shocked how often you tell a new guy exactly what to do with a particular boat and then on race day they've gone a different direction. They're smarter, or read something on line, or some guy at the hobby shop said "this setup is better". Then when they burn it up they're frustrated. So are the guys trying to help him. Eventually you quit trying to help them.

Well, I see your point.

[Coug90]

After some serious thinking about what I think a spec motor class should be, I decided to forgo my proposal to add any more motors to the NAMBA spec motor list for 1/10th scale (or any spec motor class for that matter). This and many other conversations I read in the older threads on this subject have helped me. I know it frustrates the hell out of many people how things are done currently in NAMBA "spec" classes as it relates to motors, but I now believe it would add to the problems if more choices were added and get further away from how I believe spec motor classes should be managed. Maybe an inexpensive one motor (or possibly two verified same factory and design motors sold under different names) concept will never fly, but I'm not going to give up on it. I truly believe it's the best way to manage it long term if the class performance goals are initially well defined for a good baseline and NAMBA remain true to a technical, controlled process of testing for viable motor candidates for said class. As long as the final selection process is random, the class can't lose. There can be no brand loyalty or favoritism in a spec motor class run in this fashion. Maybe I should start working on that proposal for the future instead. It would take a serious commitment to do it. I think it would be time well spent if the intent is to find a way to maintain true spec motor classes into the future.

[TRUCKPULL]

Mitch

You had mentioned before, that NAMBA should look in to and come up with more choices, (or something along that line)

NAMBA - or the people in Voted positions have nothing to do with it.
We the members are the ones that get together on this Forum and maybe others and put together a proposal, that NAMBA buts out to all the members for a vote.

Larry

[Coug90]

Mitch

You had mentioned before, that NAMBA should look in to and come up with more choices, (or something along that line)

NAMBA - or the people in Voted positions have nothing to do with it.
We the members are the ones that get together on this Forum and maybe others and put together a proposal, that NAMBA buts out to all the members for a vote.

Larry

Thanks Larry. I understand that part, but I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around what I've read in the NAMBA rulebook as to how rules get proposed and voted on. I contacted our district rep about a rule proposal and he asked me to provide proof that it had been voted on by my club and that it passed at that level. I since decided to forgo that proposal. I may have misunderstood what I read, but I thought you sent the proposal to the district rep so that it could be voted on at the district meeting to see if it can be sent on to the next level and eventually voted on at the national level. I'm generalizing of course, but is that the basic idea? What if a NAMBA member doesn't have a club and wants to make a proposal? The things I have been talking about changing in this thread is a process to be applied to spec motor classes and make them easier to maintain. It's a huge undertaking to sit down and put on paper and I wouldn't do it alone. I think it's worthwhile and might help break the cycle that I see in spec motor classes that seem to frustrate a lot of people who want to continue to run in them. I think I need to get with some of the folks like Darin Jordan and Jim Bickford who are used to dealing with NAMBA classes and have a history running and trying to manage spec motor classes and rule proposals. I think there may be a better way, but I have to go to school first to see how to go about starting a proper proposal. Can you guys share some knowledge and give a brother some insight?

[Doug Smock]

Ok Darin the A3630 is out of stock. Fix it please sir!