More limited motor discussion

**dethow** · 02-15-2018, 01:01 AM

Darin...
I was only having fun and poking at you

with the Dynamite diameter comment. It was just a funny coincidence I noticed.

Otherwise... whatever

You guys do what you're going to do. I'll just

and race within the

But for the record… there are more than a few RTR options with 36mm motors. Ten (10) of them are quick to think of: Revolt 30, Motley Crew, Lucas Oil, UL-1 Superior, Blackjack 29, Veles 29, UL-19, Popeye, Pursuit, Phantom SV33.

Those provide you with three (3) different manufactures and five (5) different motor choices. I don’t know what boat the Dynamite 1500kv came in but that would be a 6th motor. And that’s not accounting for new offerings that may come. Three (3) of those listed boats and two (2) of the motors just came out in the past 24 months.

And if manufactures stop making boats with 36mm motors then the class should just die. We should never expect people to buy a new boat and have to spend money on a smaller/slower motor to race with us. With RTR considered in the rule it will live, breath, grow, shrink and maybe die as necessary.

**raptor347** · 02-15-2018, 02:13 AM

Just a little data on the 1415 capabilty. This is from my raptor running a castle 1415 2400kV (the actual Neu will handle a bit more Power), CC ice 200 with cooling, Dinogy 4S 3300's paralleled (6600 total). Average current 192amps (spikes to 232 amps), ~2500 watts average. Heat time right at 72 seconds in traffic.

Compare that to my Spec setup running an old (read good/early) AQ 2030 averaging 75 amps (spikes to 105) 1050 watts average.

There's roughly 10 mph difference in speed between these to power systems in the same hull.

Food for thought.

**Darin Jordan** · 02-15-2018, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by dethow

Revolt 30, Motley Crew, Lucas Oil, UL-1 Superior

Hobbico filed for Bankruptcy, you do know that, right??

And that puts a total of two motors on the table, both of questionable manufacturing quality from batch to batch. Both that we seem to NOT be able to tech today.

So let's see, how many strikes against those does that make??

Originally posted by dethow

Blackjack 29
Veles 29
UL-19

Yup... BJ29 is discontinued, but motors are still available (came with 1800 or 2000, depending on the generation). 1500KV came in the Miss Geico, also discontinued. Motors are still presently available. VELES 29 and UL-29 share the same motor. So, granted, that's three... Again, RTR stuff, here today, gone tomorrow, and who knows what the next batch might produce.

Originally posted by dethow

Phantom SV33.

Don't forget the Skater... Two boats, same motor. SSS 3630-2030KV 6-Pole with Pro Marine Logos. Good, solid motors today. Next batch? Hopefully so.

Originally posted by dethow

Popeye
Pursuit

Popeye is a pretty damned big boat. You sure it comes with a 36mm motor? Either way, again, SSS motors. Who knows what they'll come up with next.

You seem to want to go back and repeat the mistakes that we made in NAMBA. If that's your thing, have at it. But, as soon as you start adding gray areas like "must be from a RTR", etc., the rules become more of a "gentleman's agreement"
as they are NOT ENFORCEABLE. You've seen all the discussions here over the years. You should see that by now.

And wasn't it YOU who just posted above that you KNOW people were already cheating in this regards? Can YOU tell what bearings they are using? Whether or not they've re-wound the motor? I can't. Most CDs can't.

It is because of all of this and what has already been hashed over that our club, Terry's club, and others, wanted to rectify this once and for all, and simply restrict the physical size. If you start adding weight requirements, or cost requirements, or a maximum KV, or whatever, then enforcement not only becomes dicey, it becomes NECESSARY, which means you have to have a way to actually, accurately, fairly, and PRACTICALLY do it.

Not sure what more needs to be said in that regard. My advice: LEARN from OUR mistakes! Look at our motor list. How many are actually still available? WHY would we want to continue to address this every season as parts become available or not available? HOW do you tech this stuff?

Anyhow, that's why we think (our club, others) we have a better way with just limiting the physical dimensions. It's viable. Just need to settle on the dimensions.

Outside of that, we may have to just agree to disagree on some of this. :) But that doesn't mean we can't share some laughs and some beer.

**Darin Jordan** · 02-15-2018, 08:44 AM

Found it. HERE are where the dimensions I originally proposed came from. Measuring all of the available P-LTD motors, plus others that were deemed to "might fit" into the class.

As you can see... the diameters and lengths varied. Maximums were determined based on trying to fit them all in. For example, the LENGTH was ultimately determined by the SSS/Pro Marine offering, rounding up slightly for measuring tolerance.

Nothing "pro Dynamite" motor related... Just facts.

Motor_Sizes.JPG

**T.S.Davis** · 02-15-2018, 10:16 AM

Isn't it time we stop thinking we're "fixing" what we once knew as limited and accept that we're going somewhere else? This is where Peterson was right. Abrasive as all git out but still was right. The Wisconsin boys were fed up with quality hiccups though. They wanted to leave limited behind and do something else even though the equipment was still available.

As bad as limited was..........the rule set held it's own for about 8 years. It was the most populated power spec. Pretty solid run.

With the new spec......yes, the old stuff will be legal. Yes, there will be RTR's that can race right out of the box. The RTR' today are better, faster, and more reliable than the RTR's that were available back in 2008 or 2009 when Dave penciled the limited rules. An SV27 from 2009 is not going to compete with a PM Phantom. Not even a little bit close. The boats have evolved. Boats are going to evolve more. Guys are going to find ways to go faster. So is the market. It happened with the old spec. It's going to happen with the new spec. Ever been to a time trial? Why bother? Because guys are always looking for crumbs down in the edge of the envelope. It's the nature of racing.

Will this new path result in new speeds? Very likely. So what? The point is that we're defining something with a max. What that max is I guess................ is STILL being debated despite the results. We're still dwelling on "what if's". We ran it for a year and the "what if's" didn't pop up. Maybe if we run it for 5 years we'll find the magic bullet motor to dispel the whole idea. While we wait........ Elvis has left the building! Analysis paralysis.

What we knew as "limited" isn't sustainable. This isn't speculation anymore. This new thing (feeling like broken record) needs to be both an entry point and still inspiring for everyone. Something between standing on shore watching and being a complete lunatic (you know who you are).

Oh and on weights..... We could do something like that but then it will be: With connectors? Without? Short wires? Long wires? Don't change wires! Shave weight with ceramic bearings? Drill extra holes in the can before hand winding a motor? How about a carbon fiber can? Doesn't really keep it simple for the potential new racer. Then there is the tech work. Confiscate winning boats. Then watch as each contestant disassembles there setup. De-solders the connectors, removes the water jacket, take off the coupler.

**dethow** · 02-15-2018, 10:18 AM

Yeap... we NEED to go from currently 3 motor choices to 20. We can't just settle on going from 3 to 6. And when 2 die off there will still be 4 and maybe others will fill there places.

Two/three years ago when this BS started (got real thick) we all thought AQ are not going to be available much longer we have to do something. Well if the rule had just been written originally to include any motors 37mm to 62mm from any past, present and future RTR modeled... the problem would have already fixed itself and we wouldn't be doing this right now.

But you guys know best. Let's have 20 motor choices, tell guys buying a RTR boat that they now need to go buy a new motor, and lets run a race class with slower boats that what RTR market offers. Sounds like the future to me. Because if you are right and there soon will be no RTR boats with 36mm motors then this entire class is just going to suck and it should just die.

**T.S.Davis** · 02-15-2018, 11:00 AM

Dave, I get it. I get the frustration. I don't think it's fear. I know you better than that. More like concern for the unknown.

I know I'm feeling some frustration as we ran this for a year. Before it ever becomes even eligible a for a vote will be another year and we're still developing potential "what if" scenario. To make matters more perplexing for me......if Brian comes to MI and wins the response will likely be "see, the spec doesn't work". Lost will be the fact that he's one of the best drivers in the world and is likely willing to sacrifice a chicken in his pits to get 1/32 mph hour more out of a prop.

2 or 3 years? Where ya been man? We raced it at the 2008 Cup, the club, Northern nats, and I think at CAFE that same summer. Dave wrote it up. There was some back n' forth. Then I proposed it in fall of 2008. I think. Not sure exactly when but we ran it officially for the 09 NATS. We've been defending it from day one. BTW I think we got it wrong. It worked but it was wrong. Primarily because we couldn't prove it. Wasn't tech able. It was too touchy feely faith based nonsense. Not because guys couldn't be trusted but because it opened the door for others to question the integrity of anyone that was successful. "Oh yeah he's fast but he cheats" kind of BS.

If it had just said dims + any RTR, how do you define RTR?

I was a distributor for TFL and incorporated. Even had liability insurance. If I got all the parts and put it together in my basement for someone ready to rip is it an RTR? I built Kevin's first Stealth that way less paint. If we say they have to have sold "X" number of units how do we even check that? Say Promarine buys 25 boats at a time and they come on a pallet. When does he qualify? First 25, 50, 200? How about 10 MTR, 10 Skater, 10 Phantom? PM already ran into this with the 100 unit mark that's actually in the book. Sold 100. He figured he was golden. Had Darin run some numbers to check out his motor I think. Wasn't that simple. Adding a motor to NAMBA needs a vote by membership as it's a racing rule. It's easier to get a heart transplant than get a motor added to the list. "What?!? Add a motor? But I have mind crippling fear!?"

If we had just started with dims we would have been further ahead IMO but we were ignorant.

I suspect it will be closer to 40 motor choices with various windings.

**Doug Smock** · 02-15-2018, 11:27 AM

SMH Check out that horse. Is that a horse?!?!?Damn dude it looks like it might have been at one time....�� Good grief!!

**longballlumber** · 02-15-2018, 11:58 AM