(Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

[dethow]

You can add weight as a secondary requirement. The only time that would come up is in a big race event. I don't think during club races anyone would care unless there was a solid standout, then it could be checked.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Maybe... Maybe... to keep out any fully stuffed Frankenstein custom made motors, but I don't believe a weight limit will exclude a Neu 1415 motor.

But with that said there IS more room to be used in a 62mm can then even a 1415 will use. Example being that the rotor in the Dynamite 3835 is 3.5mm closer in the front than the Neu 1415 is. I think a custom Frankenstein motor could be made to hold as much as a 45mm rotor/stator. Which is 6mm longer than the Dynamite and 7mm longer than the Neu 1415.

That is coming from my measurements taken on the Dynamite 3835 which has the least amount of space from front and rear to rotor ends.
The rotor is 7.2mm from front and 9.6mm from rear. Can is 55.9mm long, so 55.9 minus 7.2 and minus 9.6 equals a 39.1mm rotor.

With these measurements applied to a 62mm can the results would be... 62.0 minus 7.2 and minus 9.6 equals a 45.2mm rotor.

So I don't think you have a bad point here Steve. Maybe there should be some kind of weight limit in the 285 gram area and maybe even just call it an even 300 grams. This comes from the TP 3630 at 263 grams and estimated Dynamite 3831 at 264 grams and then add 15 grams for connectors/solder/shrink and we're at 279 grams.

[dethow]

So I don't think you have a bad point here Steve. Maybe there should be some kind of weight limit in the 285 gram area and maybe even just call it an even 300 grams. This comes from the TP 3630 at 263 grams and estimated Dynamite 3831 at 264 grams and then add 15 grams for connectors/solder/shrink and we're at 279 grams.

I would take (current heaviest motors) a TP3630, add 5.5 bullets to the stock length wires and weigh it. Also weigh a Dynamite 3831 with the factor installed 5.5 bullets but with the cooling can removed. See where they are and maybe add 5 to 10 grams for slight manufacturing differences and maybe some future products but still kept within reason to not knock out existing/current motors from being able to compete.

[jerry123]

The new Pro boat u-l 19 hydro motor be legal for impbà and namba P limited sport hydro? Getting back into F E after 17 yrs.

Thanks Jerry Pelletier

[dethow]

The new Pro boat u-l 19 hydro motor be legal for impbà and namba P limited sport hydro? Getting back into F E after 17 yrs.

Thanks Jerry Pelletier

The motor that comes in that boat is not legal under the current NAMBA national rules and there are no IMPBA national rules for a limited or spec motor class. There may be a rule change coming to NAMBA which would make this motor legal but details are being worked out. There are some NAMBA and IMPBA clubs which are actually running different rules that may include that motor. I'd check in with your local club you intend to race with and/or check the race fliers for any national event you want to attend.

Some IMPBA events which include electric classes are individually defining what motor rules are being used for limited/spec classes. Both of these races would include the motor that comes in that boat.
2018 IMPBA SPRING NATIONALS in GA is going with max dimensions of 37mm can diameter X 62mm can length.
2018 IMPBA FE Nationals in MI is going with max dimensions of 37mm can diameter X 62mm can length and shall not exceed 268 grams weight (minus can cooler, collet, mounting fasteners, and motor connectors).

See section 28, pages 5 and 6 of the NAMBA rule book for current motors allowed in limited classes. These are pages 101 and 102 of the pdf file.

http://namba.com/content/library/rules/namba_rulebook.pdf

[rayzerdesigns]

The rule proposal was withdrawn from namba.. some districts have adopted it.. but with people doing the 1415 thing put a damper in it.. I’m not in agreeable with the weight thing.. the whole idea was to make it easy to tech.. I’m thinking making the dimensions smaller say 36.2 by 58 or 60 max.. but will be keeping eye on it.. so for this years namba nationals it will be the approved motor list

[jerry123]

u l 19 pro boat p limited hydro

You would think that pro boat says in the discription that the boat is namba legal and that would include motor too.

[TRUCKPULL]

You would think that pro boat says in the discription that the boat is namba legal and that would include motor too.

Yes it is for "P" class, but not for "P Limited class"

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

I’m thinking making the dimensions smaller say 36.2 by 58 or 60 max.. but will be keeping eye on it.. so for this years namba nationals it will be the approved motor list

Yeah maybe. That might eliminate a couple TP's but if that keeps someone from inventing something insane it may be worth it.

Interesting to me is the fact that the motor list was and still is virtually un-techable.

The weight thing is not that big of a deal Ray. Think about every other class that has some form of limitation. Nitro and gas have limitations. You have to actually disassemble the motors to know with certainty they are correct. A weight limit for us is drop it on a scale. Dropping it on a scale - would only happen if there was some clearly obscene fast motor that raised suspicion of other racers. Like a "hmmmmmmmmm?" moment.

We need to take a minute and give ourselves some credit I think. For all the on-line hand wringing over it, on race day there was never any discourse. Maybe a level of trust exists that we don't give ourselves credit for. With the list, you could have rewound them to look factory. You could have swapped bearings. No way to prove that really either. Heck, from outside the can you would never know if the rotor was factory. Can you modify that somehow? I have no clue on that. All these things could maybe have been done (not to my knowledge BTW) and were impossible to prove or disprove. To tech the motor list you would have had to take them completely apart and check them against the original manufacturers specifications. Two AQ 2030's from different lots had different wires. "Unmodified" is right in the text. So.....prove it's "unmodified". Yet, no protests.........ever. 9 years or so.......and not a single motor protest anywhere. Not at a Cup. Not at a nationals.

I predict that with any new guidelines this will still be the case. L x W x W. Simple. Most guys would look inside someones boat. See motor x,y,z. Recognize it. Know what it was and a protest doesn't come. If it ever did, it will still be less intrusive than the procedure for a B hydro protest. Perspective.

Is there going to be a NAMBA FE nats this year Ray? I would be concerned that the motor list would hinder participation since most/some (how bout many?) of the country is moving away from that. A NAMBA nats might be a good place to establish proof of concept since there are fewer NAMBA clubs of late to use for reference. Of those I'm not sure there is consensus. I'm no NAMBA expert though.

[ray schrauwen]

What's odd or maybe funny is that only 1/10 the scale RC car brushless motors are completely rebuildable and designed for being teched and or rebuilt. Too bad all brushless motors aren't as rebuildable. Teching them by teardown would be easier.

Just sharing silly morning thoughts....

[jerry123]

So all I need to do is swap out the motor for an approved p limited sport hydro motor.

[dethow]

Hey everyone… I want to start with an apology for going off on the IMPBA BODs in another thread regarding this issue. We need to be patient and I get that. I just lost it when told via some private messages (from an unnamed person) that told me IMPBA will NEVER make a national rule. After settling down, I THINK this person may have just been upset as well and maybe spoke a little out of turn. Only time will tell.

But I digress and hope everyone reads this in its entirety.

I re-read through this thread and the other which has been closed. I believe there is some closure to be had and as many have pointed out to me… we just need patients. I hope both NAMBA and IMPBA will look at things over the next couple years and we get to the goal we’ve all been looking for. A long lasting national rule set that provides cost effectiveness, motor inclusiveness, motor parity and participation.

I hope (and I think we all do) that both organizations come to a similar or even exact same rule set. I’d propose we just move on from P-Limited and have both organizations call it P-Spec. As I’ve heard from several… this is like a whole new thing and lets just leave P-Limited in the past.

As for the seemingly end result after years of debate…
37-mm diameter x 62-mm length x 268-grams weight is the motor rule which will be utilized at the 2018 IMPBA FE Nationals in Michigan. Kudos to the IMPBA FE Director (Mike Ball) and the Core Members of MMEU (Terry Davis and Tom Castellani) for working through the issues put in front of you. Sorry I was the one which caused those issues and caused you more work and debate. My intent was for the better good.

With that said… I’m glad I did. I think we would have had a disaster on our hands if we first went with the “As Manufactured” thing or just did the diameter x length only.
The “As Manufactured” thing brings a lot of questions and gets really muddy with how its interpreted. I believe those questions have been faced and Terry Davis already agreed in this thread that was a bad idea.
“Diameter x Length Only” leaves the door wide open for expensive custom motors that would dominate the class. I will be putting my 62mm long Neu 1415 motors in my boats and running them at MMEU practices to prove this out to Terry. We’ll see what happens. Brian Buaas chimed in on the issue and believes these 1415s will be a problem for the class based on experience with these motors. I spoke out on the issue because once I had them in my hands, saw how stuffed they are with copper and felt how heavy they were… I knew these motors would be very bad for the class. They’d been good for me (for one season) but had a rule actually passed it would have created a disaster and the Naysayers of a P-Limited rule change would have been saying “TOLD YOU SO”.

As for the current Naysayers that adding the weight is bad because we want to make this easy to tech… I think Terry Davis did a good job in post #83 to cover this thought. Weight is not hard to tech and without it we have no rule. There is no other SIMPLE way to keep “insane” out of the class.

P-Spec Motor Rule of 37-mm diameter x 62-mm length x 268-grams weight will get everything we want out of the class.
- It will include all motors currently on the NAMBA P-Limited motor list.
- It will include many new motor choices which have been proving out to not be ridiculous (in terms of speed or price) compared to current P-Limited motors. Some new motors are even more cost effective. Race testing will continue.
- It will block out “insane” motors that can be custom made by manufactured, made in someone’s basement, or may even come along someday in a RTR boat.
- (Most of all) It will provide years upon years of racing with no rule changes needed. Just cannot see a world where we won’t have many choices available. From old motors no longer made, to existing/new motors coming in some RTR, and to existing/new motors not from any RTR.

My hope is that we can tamp down the naysaying on the weight addition and let’s see how it proves out at race events. The question of not being easy to tech is just plain wrong. As Terry pointed out, this is vastly easier to tech than the current P-Limited rules and easier to tech then several of the gas/nitro classes.
I think the bigger thing to be proven out is lack of protests and thus even a need to tech. BUT… IF there EVER is a protest… at least we’ll have something to tech that WILL shut down ANY and ALL debate. That is what makes this a good rule proposal.

I hope and beg NAMBA and IMPBA to keep an open mind and I ask clubs to adopt these P-Spec Motor Rules so we can start to see results.

Sorry again…
and I’m really not the A-hole I may have come across as being in the other thread. Passionate and wanting results… YES! Wanting results so that this debate can end once and for all.

[T.S.Davis]

I kinda mentioned it earlier there. On race days...............there just is no debate. Nobody is wringing their hands about it at all. It's only on line that minds are lost. It's truly bizarre. It's like a different group of humans. Once we stop bickering about it like teenage girls, the BOD's form each organization will look at the results instead of the rhetoric.

Couple guys asked me the same question about the timing on a national set of rules. "What's the difference really?" If we had a rule set today, next month, or next year. Makes no danged difference. Venues (like a NATs, spring nats, MCup) will cater to what puts butts on the drivers stand...............until it doesn't. Tougher for NAMBA because they're already saddled to the old set. It will require monumental effort to get a trial set run at a national event. Heck, some of them believe that if it aint in the book it's not insured.

Jerry, if yer racing NAMBA you would need to swap out the motor for one on the list to be legal. Worth checking with the guys you plan to run with though. Many locale have opted for a revised version of "limited" based on dimensional data. That being 37mm x 62mm x 268 grams max. The 268 grams thing is something we only recently added. Motors that weigh in more than that are typically custom made. Possible of course. Hence the rule but rarely seen.

[Doug Smock]

Couple guys asked me the same question about the timing on a national set of rules. "What's the difference really?" If we had a rule set today, next month, or next year. Makes no danged difference. Venues (like a NATs, spring nats, MCup) will cater to what puts butts on the drivers stand...............until it doesn't. Tougher for NAMBA because they're already saddled to the old set. It will require monumental effort to get a trial set run at a national event. Heck, some of them believe that if it aint in the book it's not insured.

He's right!

For those that are wondering, Limited boats are P Class boats and won't jeopardize a site.

[TheShaughnessy]

Just wanted to update this with some info regarding motor size. I recently found a 36x58 size motor that had some solid looking numbers as listed by the manufacturer. I ordered one up to see how it would do in my new p-ltd cat. Before installing the motor I ran several times and at different ponds located in Southern CA with the gps speed consistently reading 50 mph ( 49.8, 50.3, 50.1, 49.7, etc) for my set up which is/was a AQ1800 kv motor and a stock prop from a ProBoat Zeles 29 that I sharpened and balanced. Then, changing nothing but the motor I ran again. To my delight my boat was now running 5 mph faster, on one run I hit 56 and change. The kv on the new motor was slightly higher, what was surprising is the amp draw was very close to the same. This motor retails for $99.99 usd and is available to anyone willing to place the order. I didn't have to call the manufacturer to have it specially made or anything. My AQ cooler was a direct fit.

I think we are trying to eliminate cases where a simple motor swap would yield a 5+ mph gain but how do we do that? To put that in perspective I was prop testing with the AQ 1800 and saw a 4 mph increase going from a m445 to the 1716. So how much of this is to blame on the motor and how much is to blame on the prop?

[TRUCKPULL]

Michael

Can you give me some more information on the motor and where to get it?

Larry