Fiberglass or Carbon Fiber?

[Jeepers]

the best way is to use the abs hull as a plug and pull a mold off it and then make your own CF, FG or Kevlar, Hull.

In my experience the Super 77 acts as a barrier and prevents any glue from sticking to the abs, one impact and you can peel the "skin" off. at least thats what happened to a couple of my builds, I will never waste the time and money to laminate CF or FG over abs again, if want to reinforce abs use abs sheets IMO. as for CA never tried it and probably never will.

[FloatDaBoat]

NOVAK states this precaution in their documentation: NO CA GLUE ON ESC; CA glue & it's fumes can damage internal ESC components and result in premature failure - - FYI !!!

[Jeepers]

NOVAK states this precaution in their documentation: NO CA GLUE ON ESC; CA glue & it's fumes can damage internal ESC components and result in premature failure - - FYI !!!

yep!

but I have never laminated CF or FG with CA and probably never will. I use CA all the time for other things.

[befu]

HIPS and epoxy

Well, now I am screwed. I have these 1/10 cracker boxes that I sanded the inside of the hull first, then laminated kevlar/carbon reinforcement into using epoxy. Well, after reading this thread, I am concerned about it peeling right off. So I thought I would redo it correctly with CA. The problem is, I can't get the epoxy to release from the plastic hull!!! I think it will destroy the hull trying to remove it.

The hulls are HIPS (styrene) and not ABS. Since I can't get the epoxy to release to do it with CA, maybe I should just throw out the five hulls and start over.

Any ideas...... Is HIPS different? They both are a styrene based plastic, right?

Brian

[steveo]

the 3m adhesive is just used to keep the cloth in place and mold it into the boat and flow the ca over it use thin ca to seep through the carbon of fiber, i used this method in my bby om29 with some wood reinforcement and the boat has no flex what so ever, hard as a rock

[steveo]

Well, now I am screwed. I have these 1/10 cracker boxes that I sanded the inside of the hull first, then laminated kevlar/carbon reinforcement into using epoxy. Well, after reading this thread, I am concerned about it peeling right off. So I thought I would redo it correctly with CA. The problem is, I can't get the epoxy to release from the plastic hull!!! I think it will destroy the hull trying to remove it.

The hulls are HIPS (styrene) and not ABS. Since I can't get the epoxy to release to do it with CA, maybe I should just throw out the five hulls and start over.

Any ideas...... Is HIPS different? They both are a styrene based plastic, right?

Brian

i would leave it if it will not come off

[damfurst]

Well, now I am screwed. I have these 1/10 cracker boxes that I sanded the inside of the hull first, then laminated kevlar/carbon reinforcement into using epoxy. Well, after reading this thread, I am concerned about it peeling right off. So I thought I would redo it correctly with CA. The problem is, I can't get the epoxy to release from the plastic hull!!! I think it will destroy the hull trying to remove it.

The hulls are HIPS (styrene) and not ABS. Since I can't get the epoxy to release to do it with CA, maybe I should just throw out the five hulls and start over.

Any ideas...... Is HIPS different? They both are a styrene based plastic, right?

Brian

Hopefully someone will answer that knows for certain. I do know that styrene and ABS are not the same formula and so it may be as steveo said just leave it alone. The epoxy may stick to it better than it does ABS. I also don't think that stryrene has as much flex as ABS does.

[Scott T]

Well, now I am screwed. I have these 1/10 cracker boxes that I sanded the inside of the hull first, then laminated kevlar/carbon reinforcement into using epoxy. Well, after reading this thread, I am concerned about it peeling right off. So I thought I would redo it correctly with CA. The problem is, I can't get the epoxy to release from the plastic hull!!! I think it will destroy the hull trying to remove it.

The hulls are HIPS (styrene) and not ABS. Since I can't get the epoxy to release to do it with CA, maybe I should just throw out the five hulls and start over.

Any ideas...... Is HIPS different? They both are a styrene based plastic, right?

Brian

If it's HIPS like the Vac-u-boat stuff, then epoxy is fine. Different to BBY's ABS, which does not bond to epoxy well.

[befu]

interesting

If it's HIPS like the Vac-u-boat stuff, then epoxy is fine. Different to BBY's ABS, which does not bond to epoxy well.

OK, that is interesting. I will look around, I might have some small pieces of ABS still, will have to do an experiment.

I know if I put the epoxy onto a piece of HIPS that is still smooth, all I have to do is flex the plastic and the epoxy will pop right off. Once I sand the surface, the epoxy seems to get a good mechanical bond.

One thing I will do, is look for a styrene glue or primer. Something you can put on the styrene to etch it, that will allow the epoxy to adhere better. Then test it against sanding or sand blasting the surface. See which is better and present some actual data. Maybe I will find some test results when looking for the glue.

Brian

[Vac-U-Boat]

Since I make my kits with HIPS, and I have done lots of testing over the years, I thought I would comment on the adhesive issue. They make an adhesive for styrene, which is just like smelly model cement. Bonds the plastic chemically. However, at the edge of where the glue contacts the styrene, the material becomes weak and will fail first next to the glue. Not a stress-dam effect of having a ridgid area next to a flexible area. Just a chemical reaction i suppose. CA works like the model cement, but there is no weakness next to the glue-line. Also, CA is less likely to deform the styrene, which is why I recommend it on the rather-thin deck seam of the tug. I think ABS is denser and more brittle than HIPS. ABS is harder to paint. Most ABS ready-to-runs come with a sheet of stickers instead of painting directions. HIPS has a surface like a sponge, microscopically. Hobby enamels, paints made for plastic like Fusion or Plastikote actually soak in a bit chemically bonding with the plastic, like CA and Model Cement does. Other kinds of paints or glues that don't chemically bond need a physical bond. Scuffing for enamels or sanding (100 grit or larger) for epoxy. Best to mix a filler into the epoxy. I use talcum powder if weight isn't a problem. Filled epoxy will take a flex where unfilled epoxy is brittle and will crack like glass. Fold in about the same volume of talc as you have epoxy. For laminating plastic, only 1/4 to 1/3 talc by volume. I tried spraying full-strength and thinned styrene adhesive (Weldon 4807) to laminate styrene. Dried with heat and without. Every time, overnight, the solvents in the adhesive caused deformation of the hull surface. For laminating plastic sheets together, I scuff with 100 grit in at least two directions, and bond with filled west systems epoxy brushed to one surface then pressed together. For mating hulls to decks with a product that will bond yet flex on impact, I use a polyurethane sealant sanding the seams first with 100 grit paper. I only thin epoxy when I want it to penetrate a surface faster (like wood) but only with Acetone, which is described as a thinner for epoxy and polyester resins, and only about 5% to 10% or you will weaken the epoxy. Stir until the mixture returns to a clear appearance. Use acetone outside only. Stuff is nasty on your kidneys. Don't use the acetone for anything else, really. Clean your epoxy brushes with alcohol or lacquer thinner. Hope this helps! Phil

[befu]

Hips test

OK, finally tried a test. i took a sheet of .060 HIPS that had already been vacuum formed. I sanded half of it with 80 grit sand paper to rough up the surface. I then applied CA glue to half of it also the oposite direction. I now had sanded with and without CA, and smooth with and without CA. After it had dried, I used an epoxy laminating resin and a couple layers of glass.

When I pulled the glass off of the plastic, it came off the hardest off of the sanded section, no surprise there. More epoxy stuck to the bare sanded plastic than the CA'ed sanded plastic. It really did not want to come off the sanded section.

On the smooth section, the epoxy came right off the non-CA'ed section, nice and smooth. It also came off the CA'ed smooth section well also. A little harder, but not much. The CA was left on the plastic. Maybe sanding the CA after it dried might have helped, do not know.

So for now I will continue to sand the inside surface of my HIPS hulls and then use a laminating resin for the reinforcement.

------

Interesting read from Phil, thank you for sharing your finds. will have to file that one away for future use.

Brian